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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

Xxonemanwolfpax

Xxonemanwolfpax

LFF_PAX
One of the best tier lists so far, only thing id change is cybernetic kano XD He should be placxed a bit higher, also reptile. All three variations have pretty much the same matchups and deceptive got nerfs too so its safe to say that noxious is a bit better now :) and whats with the cyber sub downplay? he should be a whole teir higher, better tools than cyrax and a god f2
 
Icefyre

Icefyre

Shadows
False God Confirmed said:
Really?

"You really think the Krawler is better than all that extra combo damage, and dot's from so many buttons and the 14% throw? You really think the Krawler is better than Tarkatan having one of the best mids and best armors in the entire game?"

I'm just asking some questions, how much more detail than that do I have to go into before my question is qualified to deserve an answer by your specifications? And yeah, I don't see rhyme nor reason to some of this deadset outlandish tiering, the list genuinely looks it was sculpted by too much time listening to the nerfsalt on TYM, and I'm just calling it how I see it, but maybe an explanation would convince me otherwise tho... Ronin is in the same tier as Master Of Storms and Hat Trick lol, do I gotta provide an explanation to question that? Or can I just ask... WHY? I don't have to post all the reasons I think Ronin is better than Master of Storms to question the tierings here, that's ridiculous, and once again... thats not how this works. You made a thread, you want to tell people your opinion, well then do so.
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I think you're misunderstanding me. Asking questions is, once again, part of the point. That's encouraged. I'm not saying you should to go into more detail than what you quoted, that's fine and all. Your very self-quote furthers my original point ("Both sides of a discussion provide points to talk/debate about"). You provided topics to discuss on what you disagreed with, albeit a little vague, but still. I just disagreed with the whole onus concept, it just seems like you're implying he's trying to argue that his list is correct without any room for changes or discussion. In which case, I would totally agree with the onus being on him completely. As is stands, he welcomes discussion...indicating that the ad hominem could have been left out in favor of more productive posting. I'm not trying to imply you're wrong for questioning some of the placements lol.
 
Second Saint

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
False God Confirmed said:
Because if someone is susceptible to being swayed by the downplay, or just using it to fill gaps in their knowledge, will immediately become apparent by looking at the bottom tiers not the top ones that everyone is well aware of. I ended up reading through the entire thing btw, but until we make it past highly questionable things like why Venomous is a full tier below Brood Mother, then I don't think it's worth getting into. You really think the Krawler is better than all that extra combo damage, and dot's from so many buttons and the 14% throw? You really think the Krawler is better than Tarkatan having one of the best mids and best armors in the entire game?


i read the thread and didn't see it. It's possible I missed it we're 6 pages deep now, go ahead and link what you are referring to tho so I know
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I think my track record and knowledge of Venomous and Brood Mother is fairly well known to anyone who's paid attention to those characters on this site. I've posted significant tech for both of them and my data was used to create the Venomous tick damage charts.

Brood Mother is definitely better than Venomous, whiffing issues on 6 or 7 characters and all. She has superior neutral because she can actually combo off of f1 for more than 16.5%. A lot of people think Venomous has better footsies than she actually does because of slightly increased poke damage, but the actual point of footsies is to land a combo, not 5 pokes in the span of 5 seconds where the application bonus damage can get to significant levels. Even then, the extra damage from the venom does not outweigh the difference between one of BM's f1 combos, which is nearly double. This is the advancing best mid of a character who's staggers, shimmies, and whiff punishes are absolutely integral, so it really can't be overstated how much of a difference it makes between the variations. Her increased combo potential more than makes up for the fact that Venomous gets about 3-10% more damage off highs, f44, and f34.

Then there's the fact that BM can actually convert off b1 for a bar, making her 50/50's more equal threats, so you don't have to do near as much conditioning to get real damage. Yes, it is punishable if the opponent has amazing reactions or makes the read, but the exact same thing can be said for Venomous. Not to mention looping hard to blockables or oki nearly as good as pre patch SQ in the corner. Are you aware her f112~bug cancels are +7? It's not jailing pressure, but that's still significant plus frames. Her corner spacing game is better as well because if you space out f22 at max distance, df1 becomes +3 instead of -3, which can lead to all sorts of mind games to counter what they'll try to do to escape, whether it be canceling to bait armor, using krawler to catch neutral ducks, etc.

Oh, and when BM uses her vortex and keeps you standing with df1, you actually have enough hit advantage to jail whatever you want. No back dashes or armor possible.

There is no doubt in my mind that BM is better than Venomous, and while it may be possible that Venom is higher than on this tier list, I wouldn't say by too much. Towards the bottom of tier 3, maybe. Her inherent unsafety doesn't go away just because she has decent setplay and pretty good strike/throw mixups, as much as I want it to. Giving her armor was a good idea (even if making it send the opponent full screen with a soft knockdown wasn't), but taking away the chip that made her stand out and the out right decimation that was EX Spray against multiple hits of armor has left her lacking.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
@CrazyFingers

What makes you put Fisticuffs above A-List?

I mean, although the distance between these two variations has shortened, I still think A-List is best variation, and from what I've heard from other Cage players, the opinion seems to be the same. Agree with both being in the same tier.
 
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Strange Symptoms

Strange Symptoms

Noob
ismael4790 said:
@CrazyFingers

What makes you put Fisticuffs above A-List?

I mean, although the distance between these two variations has shortened, I still think A-List is best variation, and from what I've heard from other Cage players, the opinion seems to be the same. Agree with both being in the same tier.
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I don't believe the characters inside the tiers themselves are set. I believe that they are random. So A-list could be anywhere.
 
x TeeJay o

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
I just wanted to say

Venomous is awful & easily the worst Dvorah variation

Tarkatan is awful and easily Aliens worst variation

Tarkatan has chop chop,tail grab,and rekka for armored moves.

Two of them throw you away from Alien which is pointless because it's his rushdown variation.

The other you need another bar to launch for poopy damage for spending 2 bars AND it has 1 hit of armor.

Not sure how tarkatan has anything close to some of the best armored moves in the game
 
CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
ismael4790 said:
@CrazyFingers

What makes you put Fisticuffs above A-List?

I mean, although the distance between these two variations has shortened, I still think A-List is best variation, and from what I've heard from other Cage players, the opinion seems to be the same. Agree with both being in the same tier.
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I honestly think they are both just as good as one another, i can see a list being slightly better though, i'll be going over the tier list more when i get home, make some edits, take opinions/arguments i've heard into account.
 
God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Second Saint said:
I think my track record and knowledge of Venomous and Brood Mother is fairly well known to anyone who's paid attention to those characters on this site. I've posted significant tech for both of them and my data was used to create the Venomous tick damage charts.

Brood Mother is definitely better than Venomous, whiffing issues on 6 or 7 characters and all. She has superior neutral because she can actually combo off of f1 for more than 16.5%. A lot of people think Venomous has better footsies than she actually does because of slightly increased poke damage, but the actual point of footsies is to land a combo, not 5 pokes in the span of 5 seconds where the application bonus damage can get to significant levels. Even then, the extra damage from the venom does not outweigh the difference between one of BM's f1 combos, which is nearly double. This is the advancing best mid of a character who's staggers, shimmies, and whiff punishes are absolutely integral, so it really can't be overstated how much of a difference it makes between the variations. Her increased combo potential more than makes up for the fact that Venomous gets about 3-10% more damage off highs, f44, and f34.

Then there's the fact that BM can actually convert off b1 for a bar, making her 50/50's more equal threats, so you don't have to do near as much conditioning to get real damage. Yes, it is punishable if the opponent has amazing reactions or makes the read, but the exact same thing can be said for Venomous. Not to mention looping hard to blockables or oki nearly as good as pre patch SQ in the corner. Are you aware her f112~bug cancels are +7? It's not jailing pressure, but that's still significant plus frames. Her corner spacing game is better as well because if you space out f22 at max distance, df1 becomes +3 instead of -3, which can lead to all sorts of mind games to counter what they'll try to do to escape, whether it be canceling to bait armor, using krawler to catch neutral ducks, etc.

Oh, and when BM uses her vortex and keeps you standing with df1, you actually have enough hit advantage to jail whatever you want. No back dashes or armor possible.

There is no doubt in my mind that BM is better than Venomous, and while it may be possible that Venom is higher than on this tier list, I wouldn't say by too much. Towards the bottom of tier 3, maybe. Her inherent unsafety doesn't go away just because she has decent setplay and pretty good strike/throw mixups, as much as I want it to. Giving her armor was a good idea (even if making it send the opponent full screen with a soft knockdown wasn't), but taking away the chip that made her stand out and the out right decimation that was EX Spray against multiple hits of armor has left her lacking.
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my man, you should be making tier lists
 
CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Second Saint said:
I think my track record and knowledge of Venomous and Brood Mother is fairly well known to anyone who's paid attention to those characters on this site. I've posted significant tech for both of them and my data was used to create the Venomous tick damage charts.

Brood Mother is definitely better than Venomous, whiffing issues on 6 or 7 characters and all. She has superior neutral because she can actually combo off of f1 for more than 16.5%. A lot of people think Venomous has better footsies than she actually does because of slightly increased poke damage, but the actual point of footsies is to land a combo, not 5 pokes in the span of 5 seconds where the application bonus damage can get to significant levels. Even then, the extra damage from the venom does not outweigh the difference between one of BM's f1 combos, which is nearly double. This is the advancing best mid of a character who's staggers, shimmies, and whiff punishes are absolutely integral, so it really can't be overstated how much of a difference it makes between the variations. Her increased combo potential more than makes up for the fact that Venomous gets about 3-10% more damage off highs, f44, and f34.

Then there's the fact that BM can actually convert off b1 for a bar, making her 50/50's more equal threats, so you don't have to do near as much conditioning to get real damage. Yes, it is punishable if the opponent has amazing reactions or makes the read, but the exact same thing can be said for Venomous. Not to mention looping hard to blockables or oki nearly as good as pre patch SQ in the corner. Are you aware her f112~bug cancels are +7? It's not jailing pressure, but that's still significant plus frames. Her corner spacing game is better as well because if you space out f22 at max distance, df1 becomes +3 instead of -3, which can lead to all sorts of mind games to counter what they'll try to do to escape, whether it be canceling to bait armor, using krawler to catch neutral ducks, etc.

Oh, and when BM uses her vortex and keeps you standing with df1, you actually have enough hit advantage to jail whatever you want. No back dashes or armor possible.

There is no doubt in my mind that BM is better than Venomous, and while it may be possible that Venom is higher than on this tier list, I wouldn't say by too much. Towards the bottom of tier 3, maybe. Her inherent unsafety doesn't go away just because she has decent setplay and pretty good strike/throw mixups, as much as I want it to. Giving her armor was a good idea (even if making it send the opponent full screen with a soft knockdown wasn't), but taking away the chip that made her stand out and the out right decimation that was EX Spray against multiple hits of armor has left her lacking.
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Thank you for explaining this in an amount of detail that i probably wouldn't be able to quite get down. I was going to get to it but I'm a bit busy at the moment and away from home. Thanks a ton!
 
God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
lookgirlitsteejay said:
I just wanted to say

Venomous is awful & easily the worst Dvorah variation

Tarkatan is awful and easily Aliens worst variation

Tarkatan has chop chop,tail grab,and rekka for armored moves.

Two of them throw you away from Alien which is pointless because it's his rushdown variation.

The other you need another bar to launch for poopy damage for spending 2 bars AND it has 1 hit of armor.

Not sure how tarkatan has anything close to some of the best armored moves in the game
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Because it's a 15f halfscreen mid, that can be ex'd into full combo with fullscreen corner carry, and requires a bar and an option select to guarantee the punish on. And if he needs double armor he has an option for that too. That's premium armor.

Tarkatan is nearly as good as Acidic and far from awful imo, I know its anecdotal but ive been wrecking with him everytime I use him, I think at the VERY least he does more than Konjurer with that great mid and armor, and ability to not have to commit to a bar to use his 50/50. I think he was the most overrated character in the game pre-nerfs, but I think post nerfs he's maybe the most underrated, and not trash at all.

Same goes for Venomous imo. People overestimate the nerfs, she aint a tier below Master of Storms not a chance lol
 
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