Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

[TheGangstaFace]

I didn't compare cassie to Jacqui. I just slapped on the same lousy argument he used to explain why a character is top 1 without actually explaining anything. In terms of making a tier list it has to be based on match ups. Like I said before, he uses what he sees on TYM to fill in the gaps of knowledge he has. In this case he uses young monsters one outlandish match up chart and dashed in some of the salt generated by TYM.

Why is Jacqui number 1 dawg

I'm not going to actually answer the question but here's something I saw on TYM

Really bra?

HOW IS SHE NOT NUMBER 1

I simply asked for a justification for the placement and he somehow turned the tables now I'm expected to answer his question. I could honestly copy and paste some of the responses made on this thread and it would have the same effect as what I'm posting now. I'm not going to bother arguing if people are just going to respond to questions with another question.

Ahh I see. Yeah I see your point of view. I see what you're saying but at the same time I'm not exactly sure what you want him to say lol. Like i said there's 100 variations. Nobody can know everything about a character.

But at the same time I suppose I do understand that if you're gonna claim a character is as strong as you say then you could provide some more insight beyond just a mu chart.

I'm not sure exactly what makes Yung's mu chart outlandish to you though. Him and Revet are fine with playing anybody to prove their mu numbers. If you think any of them are wrong you could ask to play

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Mileena, shinnok, sub zero, Cassie , kitana (mournful) tanya (pyro), smoke, ermac are lius bad mus imo. You really don't have to guess on his wakeup either, you can either njp to beat dragons roar or just low poke check him and it will low profile dragons roar and ex fly kick. Problem with liu is his pokes dont really advance him or have range, so you end up not being able to counterpoke in some situations. Has an average air game and aas as well.

Hes as solid in this meta as he was pre patch. He never had armored launchers and his pressure and zoning is still ridiculous. He didn't lose anything in the patch minus jailing (its better to cancel and bait armor anyway). As good as he is tier 2 is perfect imo due to his mus.

Just curious, what makes Cassie a bad mu? She seems like the odd one out of the bad mu's you listed

 

[STRYKIE]

I just feel like he's got better MU's than Boneshaper. Like when Impostor wins a matchup he REALLY wins that matchup and even in a lot of the matchups where what he gets isn't super great he still can do pretty well.

Doesn't Impostor also risk losing some matchups a lot harder than Bone Shaper if he gets fed a bummer on a stolen move though (Jason)? I feel like that evens it out and if one is ahead of the other, it's only very slight.

TEMPEST OVER BUZZSAW!? MADNESS!

While Buzzsaw's damage buffs were welcomed, I'm not sure if it changes enough matchups to get it ahead of Tempest.

 

[Wigy]

Mileena, shinnok, sub zero, Cassie , kitana (mournful) tanya (pyro), smoke, ermac are lius bad mus imo. You really don't have to guess on his wakeup either, you can either njp to beat dragons roar or just low poke check him and it will low profile dragons roar and ex fly kick. Problem with liu is his pokes dont really advance him or have range, so you end up not being able to counterpoke in some situations. Has an average air game and aas as well.

Hes as solid in this meta as he was pre patch. He never had armored launchers and his pressure and zoning is still ridiculous. He didn't lose anything in the patch minus jailing (its better to cancel and bait armor anyway). As good as he is tier 2 is perfect imo due to his mus.

Lets not downplay the wakeups here, dragon kick beats both njp and someone trying to low profile cause hes away full screen where he wants to be.

Also means you're just getting 3% for your knockdown pressure if ur guna low profile with no real + frames.

Lius pressure up close is insane, i dont get what you're saying. B12 is the be all end all for covering opponents not respecting things, converts for full combo if they jump out or poke when they shouldnt and its safe on block.

His staggers are scary cause hes like +1 or 2 on a few strings then he has a 9frame armour breaking anti poke anti jumpout string.

His d3 has no recovery, low profiles everything and is plus on block and now he has a pretty long range 7f poke.

I can think of very few characters as suffocating when they close you down, who can just wakeup for free, and then zone the fuck out of you.

Not that i disagree with your opinion on his bad MU's (except cassie)

 

[PapaRegadetho]

Lets not downplay the wakeups here, dragon kick beats both njp and someone trying to low profile cause hes away full screen where he wants to be.

Also means you're just getting 3% for your knockdown pressure if ur guna low profile with no real + frames.

Lius pressure up close is insane, i dont get what you're saying. B12 is the be all end all for covering opponents not respecting things, converts for full combo if they jump out or poke when they shouldnt and its safe on block.

His staggers are scary cause hes like +1 or 2 on a few strings then he has a 9frame armour breaking anti poke anti jumpout string.

His d3 has no recovery, low profiles everything and is plus on block and now he has a pretty long range 7f poke.

I can think of very few characters as suffocating when they close you down, who can just wakeup for free, and then zone the fuck out of you.

Not that i disagree with your opinion on his bad MU's (except cassie)

You do realize that you don't always have to low profile or njp his wake up? You keep calling it brainless but forget both of you have to guess what the other is going to do. If you low profile his Dragon's Roar you get 2,3% and your turn to pressure him in the corner , if you njp you get a full combo, plus Kang just spent a bar.
If you're looking for the the flying kick and block it, its your turn to pressure, if he spends another bar, both of you are at neutral and the Liu player just spent 2 bars for that attempt.

You are blowing b12 out of propotions, have you forgotten about the universal changes to armor? B12 IS a solid string, it will only break armors that lead for a full combo, but you already know that, you just don't care
and ignore it anyways.

I do give you the point about his pokes though, they are amazing.
Here is a little fun fact though, his d1 gets low profiled, lol.

 

[SylverRye]

Lets not downplay the wakeups here, dragon kick beats both njp and someone trying to low profile cause hes away full screen where he wants to be.

Also means you're just getting 3% for your knockdown pressure if ur guna low profile with no real + frames.

Lius pressure up close is insane, i dont get what you're saying. B12 is the be all end all for covering opponents not respecting things, converts for full combo if they jump out or poke when they shouldnt and its safe on block.

His staggers are scary cause hes like +1 or 2 on a few strings then he has a 9frame armour breaking anti poke anti jumpout string.

His d3 has no recovery, low profiles everything and is plus on block and now he has a pretty long range 7f poke.

I can think of very few characters as suffocating when they close you down, who can just wakeup for free, and then zone the fuck out of you.

Not that i disagree with your opinion on his bad MU's (except cassie)

I dont downplay liu kang. Dragon kick does not beat low pokes because the second hit of the kick is mid. The first hit of the kick is a high so he passes over your head. Either pressure him on knockdown or give up the pressure to check him like you have to do against other characters with armor.

B12 is not even the best string to counterpoke with because of the range of b1, it also gets low profiled. F44 is better to counterpoke with but b12 is a really good stagger (especially in flame fist) and good for people who jump on wakeup. Unless you have predator type armor, b12 DOES NOT break anything anymore unless you b12 into armor.

Liu doesn't have viable + staggers... f2 and f21 stagger are -5 iirc. Nobody is staggering s1 unless you land a bicycle kick or wp. No liu just goes in staggering a high.

D3 has always been good, 7f poke is good too.

Lius pressure is good but so many people fight him wrong. I almost never see anyone backdash, armor or challenge things like f44 cancel.

Cassie beats liu. She low profiles his counterpokes, out footsies him and can check his pressure. Thats why sonic uses her against him and why we talk about using another character against her.

 

[RM AtK!]

I dont downplay liu kang. Dragon kick does not beat low pokes because the second hit of the kick is mid. The first hit of the kick is a high so he passes over your head. Either pressure him on knockdown or give up the pressure to check him like you have to do against other characters with armor.

B12 is not even the best string to counterpoke with because of the range of b1, it also gets low profiled. F44 is better to counterpoke with but b12 is a really good stagger (especially in flame fist) and good for people who jump on wakeup. Unless you have predator type armor, b12 DOES NOT break anything anymore unless you b12 into armor.

Liu doesn't have viable + staggers... f2 and f21 stagger are -5 iirc. Nobody is staggering s1 unless you land a bicycle kick or wp. No liu just goes in staggering a high.

D3 has always been good, 7f poke is good too.

Lius pressure is good but so many people fight him wrong. I almost never see anyone backdash, armor or challenge things like f44 cancel.

Cassie beats liu. She low profiles his counterpokes, out footsies him and can check his pressure. Thats why sonic uses her against him and why we talk about using another character against her.

-5 frame traps are god stahp

 

[Skedar70]

I think Warrior should be moved to tier 3. He has the 3rd best armored move in the game that's +6 on block and he does over 50% damage for a bar if you get hit with any string after self destruct. Everything he does is safe with no gaps if you cancel into dread slam. He builds meter fast and there's always a guess if the Warrior player will do ex dread slam after the opponent blocks a regular dread slam. He's still not worth using in tournament IMO because HQT still outshines Warrior in every category other than armor.

Wait whaaat? He builds meter fast? How? Dread slam only gives me a little bit of meter and then I'm back to trying to get in on my opponent with a slow run, slow foward dash, slow jump(with a huge hurtbox) slow, walk speed and with no meter. Meanwhile my opponent is zoning me and building the meter to break 2 times a round whenever I land a hit. Self destruct is only viable in the corner after you have landed a hit which the opponent will probably break. The overhead is only good when you instant it close to the opponent. Warrior is meter intensive and I feel like I never have it. I think its the worse variation in the game. Because of the push back on ex dread slam I probably only get a d4 with the advantage maybe a b2 but that depends on what the opponent does its not a big deal.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

Liu is fine. B12 doesn't consistently break armor unless we're talking about people like Tremor or Predator. You can dash or armor any cancel except for F213 into F213 which isn't a mix up.

Flame Fist you can dash, armor or mash low pokes during W.P his only options are to ex db2 or low fireball and that is a risky read that could get him killed. Otherwise you can just dash out of db2 or jump over.

Liu can't jump because there is a big sign on him that says "AA" me. His most consistent AA is D2 which admittedly has a little bit of a ridiculous hit box but that isn't exclusive to Liu (Jax, Kotal, Ermac, etc)

He has good zoning and can make most of his pressure safe by giving up a turn or making a read with ex db2. But once you knock him down or corner him he's not that scary.

Liu isn't trash can tier by any means but I'd rather fight a Liu than a strong Kitana, Shinnok, Smoke, Ermac etc.

Just to clarify I don't play Liu outside of a basic ground game style Dragons Fire. I just labbed him extensively for a few months and play Sylver regularly.

 

[Skedar70]

How the fuck did you win games without knowing how to self destruct?

Self destruct is very situational. You can only use it after a set up in the corner. Else the variation only has dread slam and the yaut...something which is the overhead that only works at point blank distance.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Self destruct is very situational. You can only use it after a set up in the corner. Else the variation only has dread slam and the yaut...something which is the overhead that only works at point blank distance.

it's not THAT situational. I feel like that's a bit much.

 

[Skedar70]

it's not THAT situational. I feel like that's a bit much.

What? I just told you you can only activate it in the corner after you have done a corner set up. If you activate it midscreen in neutral you risk getting full combo punished and if you don't land a hit you lose 10% for nothing. What do you mean its not situational?

 

[ATP2014]

I disagree on Tarkatan's placement. He still has top tier normals, great anti-airs, 50/50s, safe-ish armor, good jump in and F134. His risk/reward became a lot worse but I would argue Konjurer is still overall lower on the tier list. I would move him up to tier 3 at least, maybe even the bottom of tier 2.

 

[D7X]

Tbh he may be better

in what way lol? Stunt double has better tools imo. Very good neutral, space control, better pressure.

 

[coconutshrimp]

in what way lol? Stunt double has better tools imo. Very good neutral, space control, better pressure.

Space control with what? I'll give you better pressure but I don't think I agree with everything else. Balanced is better tbh

 

[CrazyFingers]

Space control with what? I'll give you better pressure but I don't think I agree with everything else. Balanced is better tbh

he's probably better yea but i may have jumped the gun with how low i placed Stunt Double. Sorry for the delay on the tier list update but like...this illness is kicking my ass in more ways than one.

 

[coconutshrimp]

he's probably better yea but i may have jumped the gun with how low i placed Stunt Double. Sorry for the delay on the tier list update but like...this illness is kicking my ass in more ways than one.

Hey man no worries take care of yourself. SD still has some dirt and by that I mean the HTB. I think in terms of tools SD and the utility of them SD is outclassed by Balanced tbh but maybe that could come in a bit too strong but I'm confident that Balanced is better than SD and probably deserves to be slightly higher in tier 3 than you placed him.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Kenshi as a whole is a full downplayed character, plus frames, God like d2,unrefrectable non hurtbox proyectile that can be meterburned into a full combo in two variations, and safe 50/50's in the other, and plus on block armor in two variations, . The only downside is the backdash.

 

[RoboCop]

So you've got Full Auto as the best character in game? Just curious how she competes with her t-rex limbs. Her 1 and 1-based strings have great advantage, but her pokes overall just seem to get stuffed by everything in the game, and a lot of her pressure gets poked really easily. Her corner combos are also inconsistent. Not saying you're wrong (been forever since I've even played), just wondering what makes her a viable consideration for the top spot. Great work overall, though!

 

[CrazyFingers]

So you've got Full Auto as the best character in game? Just curious how she competes with her t-rex limbs. Her 1 and 1-based strings have great advantage, but her pokes overall just seem to get stuffed by everything in the game, and a lot of her pressure gets poked really easily. Her corner combos are also inconsistent. Not saying you're wrong (been forever since I've even played), just wondering what makes her a viable consideration for the top spot. Great work overall, though!

She's got a really solid MU chart, one of the most (if not the most) solid in the game. And in the mu's she "loses" she doesn't even lose that hard.

 

[coconutshrimp]

Kenshi as a whole is a full downplayed character, plus frames, God like d2,unrefrectable non hurtbox proyectile that can be meterburned into a full combo in two variations, and safe 50/50's in the other, and plus on block armor in two variations, . The only downside is the backdash.

What unrefractable, ik you mean unreactable, projectile are you referring to?

 

[CrazyFingers]

What unrefractable, ik you mean unreactable, projectile are you referring to?

For me the overhead might as well be unreactable cuz not playing on a monitor+slightly average reactions=8f overhead xD

 

[D7X]

Space control with what? I'll give you better pressure but I don't think I agree with everything else. Balanced is better tbh

His tools off mimicry, his D4, his f3, his projectiles. Balanced's space control has a lot of problems

 

[coconutshrimp]

Bro his mi

His tools off mimicry, his D4, his f3, his projectiles. Balanced's space control has a lot of problems

Bro his mimics are not as good as you think they are. Only one even decent is EX DB1 cause of the htb. Regular DB1 being plus 3 is good too ig. But for space control they are not anywhere near as decent as Kenshi's. Kenshi's space control with his specials do much more than SD's. Take Balanced's push and his rising karma. Those 2 by themselves do what Johnny's mimics do in terms of space control. And Johnny's projectiles? Did you forget that he trades high/low Forceball for the shitty straight one? That is a double high if EXd and has a gap in between?

F3 is good Yeah but so is Kenshi's B1

 

[Dankster Morgan]

in what way lol? Stunt double has better tools imo. Very good neutral, space control, better pressure.

Better pressure sure but the mimics aren't that good anymore. Neutral is debatable but maybe slightly cuz F3 is better than any of Kenshi's normals. Space control no, Cage's armor game is trash, Balanced's is very good, and he has excellent raw damage metetless and metered, Cage's only damage comes from mimics. He's too recourse heavy and requires mimics for anything of quality really and what the give you isn't worth the trouble to get them out. Not that Balanced is some great character but he isn't total shit like everyone made him out to be. Stunt Double is a dead variation