Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

[omooba]

Mournful wins but 6-4 flame fist. It's about even in DF because of ex air fireballs

really? ex fireballs help that much? will have to lab that

He just plays like a normal character against them thats what I'm saying, that doesn't mean he loses though. He doesn't get out zoned by any of them, I think it's pretty equal actually he just has to make reads on tele ports, he can low fireball under Mileena's sai and Sektors straight missiles on reaction at full screen and just run in if he sees up rockets. When he gets to midrange he plays like he does against any other character.

And his pressure isn't terrible against these characters either it just works a bit differently. He can bait Smoke's fade and Mileenas roll just like any other reversal, or use F4 to check cheeky Mileena's who roll a lot and hit confirm to a full combo on hit and DB2 on block. With Sektor his pressure is literally the same as against any other character.

You're acting like he's helpless against these characters because they have options around his stuff but that's not the case at all, he just has to make more reads on things that are usually pretty braindead anyway. Don't get me wrong they aren't easy matchups which is why I've got them at 5-5, I just don't see him losing them though.

works a bit differently? you're going from f2 to f4. plus on block to zero on block. you're fighting people who low profile your best poke and your best pressure starter and your best mid. you say low fireball on reaction and i say iasai on reaction. like if i do 1,1,1 with liu kang there's nothing i can use to check them pressing d3
actually let me put it this way. i feel if you loose major tools in your gameplan against certain characters and you don't gain any advantage over them, you loose the match up. he gains nothing over them and you agree with me than he has to change his gameplan against them right? so yeah 6-4

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Welcome back! It's been awhile but the patch has come and gone and the meta has settled a decent amount so I figured why not get back into the thick of it with a new tier list! We're doing things a little differently this time however. Most of you are probably used to the typical letter grade system for tier lists (S, A, B, C, D etc.) however I decided I'm going to shake it up a little bit! So in this tier list, I'll be using a number system (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 etc.) This way there's not dispute over what it means to be S tier or A tier and so on and so forth. Here you will understand Tier 1 is the best of the best, Tier 2 is just barely Tier 1, etc etc. So without further ado, here's the list! Each tier is now in order from strongest to weakest!

Tier 1
Jacqui Briggs (Full Auto)
Triborg (Sektor)
Shinnok (Impostor)
Jason (Unstoppable)
Ermac (Mystic)
Quan Chi (Sorcerer)
Sonya Blade (Demolition)
Mileena (Piercing)
Triborg (Smoke)

Tier 2
Mileena (Ravenous)
Jason (Relentless)
Mileena (Ethereal)
Scorpion (Hellfire)
Sub-Zero (Grandmaster)
Raiden (Displacer)
Liu Kang (Dragon's Fire)
Liu Kang (Flame Fist)
Predator (Hish-Qu-Ten)
Shinnok (Boneshaper)
Tremor (Aftershock)
Tremor (Crystaline)
Tanya (Pyromancer)
Kano (Cutthroat)
Kano (Commando)
Tremor (Metallic)
Takeda (Lasher)
Jacqui Briggs (Shotgun)
Quan Chi (Summoner)
Cassie Cage (Hollywood)
Raiden (Thunder God)
Tanya (Kobu Jutsu)
Tanya (Dragon Naginata)
Kitana (Royal Storm)
Kitana (Assassin)
Kenshi (Possessed)
Jason (Slasher)
Kitana (Mournful)
Scorpion (Ninjitsu)
D'vorah (Swarm Queen)
Sub-Zero (Unbreakable)
Ferra/Torr (Ruthless)
Goro (Dragon Fangs)
Cassie Cage (Brawler)
Alien (Acidic)
Taked (Shirai Ryu)
Bo Rai'Cho (Dragon's Breath)
Goro (Tigrar Fury)
Kotal Kahn (Sun God)
Kung Jin (Shaolin)
Reptile (Nimble)
Reptile (Deceptive)
Ermac (Spectral)
Kung Jin (Ancestral)
Reptile (Noxious)
Ermac (Master of Souls)
Sonya Blade (Covert Ops)
Kung Lao (Tempest)
Kung Lao (Buzzsaw)
Ferra/Torr (Vicious)
Sonya Blade (Special Forces)
Bo Rai'Cho (Bartitsu)

Tier 3
Alien (Konjurer)
Jacqui Briggs (High Tech)
Kano (Cybernetic)
D'vorah (Brood Mother)
Goro (Kuatan Warrior)
Leatherface (Killer)
Leatherface (Butcher)
Kotal Kahn (War God)
Kung Jin (Bojutsu)
Jax (Wrestler)
Jax (Pumped Up)
Predator (Hunter)
Shinnok (Necromancer)
Sub-Zero (Cryomancer)
Liu Kang (Dualist)
Takeda (Ronin)
Erron Black (Gunslinger)
Triborg (Cyrax)
Triborg (Cyber Sub-Zero)
Kung Lao (Hat Trick)
Raiden (Master of Storms)
Bo Rai'Cho (Drunken Master)
Cassie Cage (Spec Ops)
Johnny Cage (Fisticuffs)
Johnny Cage (A-List)
Kotal Kahn (Blood God)
Quan Chi (Warlock)
Kenshi (Balanced)

Tier 4
Scorpion (Inferno)
Johnny Cage (Stunt Double)
Leatherface (Pretty Lady)
Alien (Tarkatan)
Erron Black (Marksman)
Kenshi (Kenjutsu)
D'vorah (Venomous)
Ferra/Torr (Lackey)
Predator (Warrior)
Jax (Heavy Weapons)
Erron Black (Outlaw)

Well! That's the tier list! Go find your character(s) and tell me how wrong I am! Cheers!

Wow Johnny Cage 3 variations away from being in shit tier.
Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[C88_Real_Harris]

Okay, after quite a bit of thinking there's 3 things I'd like to talk about.

3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.

Those are the only gripes I've got right now and kudos for trying to order all of the variations, I think youre actually the first to even try.

worst matchups (4-6 or worse) Liu Kang ff and df, Cassie hollywood and brawler, Hellfire scorp, mystic Ermac, Demo Sonya, Mileena Etheral, Sorcerer Quan

hard matchups (probably 4.5-5.5) Jacqui Briggs Full auto, FT Ruthless, Jason Unstoppable, Liu Kang Dualist

 

[C88_Real_Harris]

Warrior
See my explanation earlier in this thread. Also, just because you have a safe wakeup doesn't mean you aren't trash. That notion is not logical.

*

I think Warrior should be moved to tier 3. He has the 3rd best armored move in the game that's +6 on block and he does over 50% damage for a bar if you get hit with any string after self destruct. Everything he does is safe with no gaps if you cancel into dread slam. He builds meter fast and there's always a guess if the Warrior player will do ex dread slam after the opponent blocks a regular dread slam. He's still not worth using in tournament IMO because HQT still outshines Warrior in every category other than armor.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I think Warrior should be moved to tier 3. He has the 3rd best armored move in the game that's +6 on block and he does over 50% damage for a bar if you get hit with any string after self destruct. Everything he does is safe with no gaps if you cancel into dread slam. He builds meter fast and there's always a guess if the Warrior player will do ex dread slam after the opponent blocks a regular dread slam. He's still not worth using in tournament IMO because HQT still outshines Warrior in every category other than armor.

The only problem with the armor is that the +6 on block doesn't mean a ton when the pushback is so intense. You get a D4 check at most.

 

[C88_Real_Harris]

The only problem with the armor is that the +6 on block doesn't mean a ton when the pushback is so intense. You get a D4 check at most.

You still have to respect it.

 

[CrazyFingers]

You still have to respect it.

True true

 

[Tweedy]

I think after the KIT team tournament, I am the best Warrior Predator.

Hold that shit.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I think after the KIT team tournament, I am the best Warrior Predator.

Hold that shit.

What the hell did I miss? I didn't get to watch KiT

 

[Tweedy]

What the hell did I miss? I didn't get to watch KiT

The Predator team got 3rd. It was me on Warrior, Full Auto on Hunter and Destroyer on HQT.

I beat a couple people and did as good as Destroyer did vs Semiiij.

 

[CrazyFingers]

The Predator team got 3rd. It was me on Warrior, Full Auto on Hunter and Destroyer on HQT.

I beat a couple people and did as good as Destroyer did vs Semiiij.

Footage? I kinda want to see that.

 

[Tweedy]

Footage? I kinda want to see that.

It's just my match with LLumiya and then Semiiij. Everything else was off stream.

 

[Strange Symptoms]

It's just my match with LLumiya and then Semiiij. Everything else was off stream.

Damn son, making me search a 4 hour video. Great match, thanks for the share.
For those looking, match at 3:00:15.

 

[Tweedy]

Damn son, making me search a 4 hour video. Great match, thanks for the share.
For those looking, match at 3:00:15.

I thought I linked the time. Sorry.

But yeah i'm joking. I only used Warrior because no one used Kenshi or Alien, so I just jumped on whatever team I could get on. I didn't even know how to do self destruct lol.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I thought I linked the time. Sorry.

But yeah i'm joking. I only used Warrior because no one used Kenshi or Alien, so I just jumped on whatever team I could get on. I didn't even know how to do self destruct lol.

How the fuck did you win games without knowing how to self destruct?

 

[Youphemism]

Really? I feel HQT dominates the neutral even against Dragons Fire. I know Liu can go ham when he gets in though which is why I had it as a 5-5, what makes you think he loses?

HQT's zoning is strong but Liu has access to moves like ex/mb BF2 or exDB2 to deal with that and/or basically get in for free and start pressure. And like you say once he's in he can just go ham, very hard for Predator to really keep him out the whole time.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Also why is balanced higher than stunt double

Tbh he may be better

 

[wsj515]

Unbreakable doesn't have that many risks. Literally he has two. B2 and Slide. Everything else is safe, plus, or neutral on block. He can slow down the game and make people think twice on oki. He also has the only one bar armored launcher which means he has the best armored move in the game (that isn't an over-exaggeration, there's a reason NRS took them out of the game)

Unbreakable's non-EX parry is very easy to full combo punish, it basically has to be used as a hard read against someone who knows the matchup. He also gets completely bullied by characters with semi decent air normals.

 

[God Confirm]

You're damn right you do. Otherwise you aren't making an argument, you're just saying he's wrong with no reasons at all.

If someone were to claim that 2 + 2 = 5, and you know they're wrong, you should be able to explain why it's wrong. Otherwise all you're doing is saying you have a feeling they're wrong but don't actually know or have evidence.

Once again, that's not how it works. There is zero explanation given, and I'm asking for one. I can do that. If you're the one posting a tier list, I don't need to post my own to be validated in questioning something. You put Ronin a tier below Master of Storms, you make a thread about it, well hey you get to explain why, not get all defensive and say "WELL WHY DO YOU THINK HE ISN'T ?", well, I didn't go ahead and make a thread about why I do, which is exactly what this thread is, and I wasn't specifically asking for feedback on it which is exactly what this thread does - I'm just responding to the statements being made. If you say something is a certain way, the onus is on you to explain, not for someone else to give you a write up on how wrong you, when they don't even know WHY you feel a way to begin with. That's just ridiculous, and not how this works. Explain your reasoning for tiering and I can agree or disagree from that point on.



This thread is imo an absolutely stunning example of how not to handle tier lists

 

[Wigy]

Currently sitting with an erection now people are discussing that liu has like 2-3 bad MU's tops.

I'd like to add he dominates a number of characters.

 

[SylverRye]

Wow, lightning fast response. I wasn't even done with my post.

Anyway, I very much disagree. Set up a klone and sit back and freeze. Lasher can do nothing.

Lasher beats sub zero bad. He punishes almost all of his clone cancels for a full combo. His whips have no hurtbox so they go THROUGH the clone AND have long range. Lasher and possessed kenshi beat him the hardest in the game imo. No way lasher loses that.

 

[llabslb]

Fam, you gotta see the flaw in what you're saying lol. It's not "random crap". This is the best current Jacqui player that plays against high level competitive players. He only plays this character too. There's definitely validation to the mu chart. Also, by that logic nobody ever in their life should make a tier list lol. Nobody is gonna have their own mu charts for all 100 variations.

Btw you mentioned Cassie comparing her to Full Auto? Nah Bruh

Edit: I'm actually curious how you would make a tier list. I hope it's not based on tools. Straight up, a tier list needs to be on mu's otherwise it makes no sense

I didn't compare cassie to Jacqui. I just slapped on the same lousy argument he used to explain why a character is top 1 without actually explaining anything. In terms of making a tier list it has to be based on match ups. Like I said before, he uses what he sees on TYM to fill in the gaps of knowledge he has. In this case he uses young monsters one outlandish match up chart and dashed in some of the salt generated by TYM.

Why is Jacqui number 1 dawg

I'm not going to actually answer the question but here's something I saw on TYM

Really bra?

HOW IS SHE NOT NUMBER 1

I simply asked for a justification for the placement and he somehow turned the tables now I'm expected to answer his question. I could honestly copy and paste some of the responses made on this thread and it would have the same effect as what I'm posting now. I'm not going to bother arguing if people are just going to respond to questions with another question.

 

[Tweedy]

I'll never understand why everyone thinks that Ronin dropped off so heavily.

I'd place him in tier 1 or S tier right now. Slightly outside of the top 5.

He lost plus frames, but armored launchers got heavily reduced. Now you can't just randomly throw out armor that does 30% when he's on top of you. His disjointed hitboxes on B11 and 21 are still super dumb. They're amazing mids and 21 is still +2. B112 is still a safe launcher that can be staggered at multiple points. B2 getting nerfed to 20 frames was a buff, giving him unfuzziable safe launching 50/50s lmao.

His projectile is still really good and -3 on block, can be EXed at +6. His D1 and D2 are great, backdash isn't horrible. Tornado kick is very hard to whiff punish. If you cancel jump 3 into tornado kick on whiff, you'll literally never lose an air to air. It's like being able to pre-fire on Call of Duty with no risk. Takeda's jump 4 is one of the best cross over jump ins in the game, his D3 is amazing for obvious reasons, damage is good.

His throw is the best in the game, or tied with Kotal's or someone else's. This shit matters. If you throw with Takeda at any point, he's + enough to do whatever he wants. A lot of characters don't get anything off of a throw. Does your opponent tech really well? Throw them out of the corner, it doesn't matter, Takeda is plus enough to do whatever he wants.

Ronin remains one of the best and most well rounded characters in MKX.

 

[SylverRye]

Okay, after quite a bit of thinking there's 3 things I'd like to talk about.

1. Sorcerer - After a LOT of thinking I don't actually think Sorcerer is tier 1, I think he's the best character of tier 2. As strong as his tools are in some matchups there are a handful of MUs where his best tool, the armor portal, doesn't really mean shit. While he still has the other two spells, the chip and meter drain portal just aren't enough to hold the character together without the armor against certain characters. He's very similar to GM in that regard and I think he should be tiered just above him at the top of tier 2. He's still dumb as fuck though.

2. Dragon's Fire - I've pocketed Dragon's Fire for pretty much as long as I've mained Quan and I think he's the strongest he's ever been now, besides when he had that infinite lol. He reminds me of Tempest Lao when he was a jack of all trades character. DF has a 6f punisher, possibly the best pressure in the game, possibly the best armor in the game (you have to guess on his WU), good pokes, good zoning and a pretty strong neutral. If he has any bad MUs I haven't encountered them yet and on paper I don't think I ever will, id definitely place him in tier 1.

3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.

Those are the only gripes I've got right now and kudos for trying to order all of the variations, I think youre actually the first to even try.

Mileena, shinnok, sub zero, Cassie , kitana (mournful) tanya (pyro), smoke, ermac are lius bad mus imo. You really don't have to guess on his wakeup either, you can either njp to beat dragons roar or just low poke check him and it will low profile dragons roar and ex fly kick. Problem with liu is his pokes dont really advance him or have range, so you end up not being able to counterpoke in some situations. Has an average air game and aas as well.

Hes as solid in this meta as he was pre patch. He never had armored launchers and his pressure and zoning is still ridiculous. He didn't lose anything in the patch minus jailing (its better to cancel and bait armor anyway). As good as he is tier 2 is perfect imo due to his mus.

 

[myri]

TEMPEST OVER BUZZSAW!? MADNESS!