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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

llabslb

llabslb

R1D1_998
CrazyFingers said:
So one of the better Jacqui's out there makes an MU chart based upon games with pros and you seem to think it's unreliable?
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So a characters placement is based on someone else's MU chart? Like false God said, your gaps of knowledge is filled in with random crap that's been said on TYM. I don't even want to bother discussing your method of developing a tier list. Just get straight to the point and answer the question rather than directing to me to an apparent justification for a characters placement.
 
CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
llabslb said:
So a characters placement is based on someone else's MU chart? Like false God said, your gaps of knowledge is filled in with random crap that's been said on TYM. I don't even want to bother discussing your method of developing a tier list. Just get straight to the point and answer the question rather than directing to me to an apparent justification for a characters placement.
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But it's literally her absurd MU chart that has her that high. Why does she NOT deserve to be that high with an MU chart like that?
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
@The_Tile i agree Dragons Fire likely doesn't have a bad matchup. Sub was probably his worst pre patch but the changes to armor and stamina made it even. It was damn close to even before anyways.
 
tafka Djinn

tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
Dankster Morgan said:
@The_Tile i agree Dragons Fire likely doesn't have a bad matchup. Sub was probably his worst pre patch but the changes to armor and stamina made it even. It was damn close to even before anyways.
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DF vs GM was already a 5-5, and now it's just a slightly different feeling 5-5. Burst is better on block! But Liu Kang doesn't seem to be subject to the old anti-Goro setup. Honestly, it's the same MU it was only with a different texture.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
The_Tile said:
Okay, after quite a bit of thinking there's 3 things I'd like to talk about.

1. Sorcerer - After a LOT of thinking I don't actually think Sorcerer is tier 1, I think he's the best character of tier 2. As strong as his tools are in some matchups there are a handful of MUs where his best tool, the armor portal, doesn't really mean shit. While he still has the other two spells, the chip and meter drain portal just aren't enough to hold the character together without the armor against certain characters. He's very similar to GM in that regard and I think he should be tiered just above him at the top of tier 2. He's still dumb as fuck though.

2. Dragon's Fire - I've pocketed Dragon's Fire for pretty much as long as I've mained Quan and I think he's the strongest he's ever been now, besides when he had that infinite lol. He reminds me of Tempest Lao when he was a jack of all trades character. DF has a 6f punisher, possibly the best pressure in the game, possibly the best armor in the game (you have to guess on his WU), good pokes, good zoning and a pretty strong neutral. If he has any bad MUs I haven't encountered them yet and on paper I don't think I ever will, id definitely place him in tier 1.

3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.

Those are the only gripes I've got right now and kudos for trying to order all of the variations, I think youre actually the first to even try.
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Low Lazer isn't safe
Liu Kang looses to smoke, sektor mileena and I think mournful but I'm not sure about that last one. Basically if you can outzone him and out footsie him and you don't get raped by his pressure you're good.
 
|Phantom|

|Phantom|

"Scarab says you suck!"
So, I do agree mostly with the list.. But I actually feel that Reptile may be a bit too low. Especially Nimble. He has soooo many good oki setups, a lot of them breaking most armor in the game. He can shut down a lot of the cast full screen with the buff to his spit animation recovery. He also gets ABSURD corner & midscreen damage as well. He is meter intensive, but he has above average ways to build it. Just my opinion though
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
omooba said:
Low Lazer isn't safe
Liu Kang looses to smoke, sektor mileena and I think mournful but I'm not sure about that last one. Basically if you can outzone him and out footsie him and you don't get raped by his pressure you're good.
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Yeah it's "unsafe" but not really unsafe.

Isn't is -7? Which is only pseudo unsafe really as not every character can punish that. Then you take into account there is pretty much no blockstun so you have to punish it on a read, not a reaction. THEN you have to take into account because of the pushback of D4 and certain other strings it most likely doesn't hit on the first active frame so it probably isn't even -7, or whatever it is, most the time.

Btw those MUs you listed are most likely 5-5s except for Mournful which I'll refrain from commenting on cause I've never played it. Just because he doesn't dominate the neutral doesn't mean he loses, he just has to play a bit more conservatively and refrain from throwing a lot of fireballs.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
The_Tile said:
Yeah it's "unsafe" but not really unsafe.

Isn't is -7? Which is only pseudo unsafe really as not every character can punish that. Then you take into account there is pretty much no blockstun so you have to punish it on a read, not a reaction. THEN you have to take into account because of the pushback of D4 and certain other strings it most likely doesn't hit on the first active frame so it probably isn't even -7, or whatever it is, most the time.

Btw those MUs you listed are most likely 5-5s except for Mournful which I'll refrain from commenting on cause I've never played it. Just because he doesn't dominate the neutral doesn't mean he loses, he just has to play a bit more conservatively and refrain from throwing a lot of fireballs.
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not just dominating neutral. i said three things if you win neutral out zone him and you don't get mopped by his pressure. what exactly is he supposed to be doing against these characters. i don't think he can even punish smoke's b3 smoke bomb with his njp's hitbox. f2 is his main pressure starter and it get's mopped by ball roll and triborgs d3. and they all out footsie him how is any of these 5-5?
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
llabslb said:
So a characters placement is based on someone else's MU chart? Like false God said, your gaps of knowledge is filled in with random crap that's been said on TYM. I don't even want to bother discussing your method of developing a tier list. Just get straight to the point and answer the question rather than directing to me to an apparent justification for a characters placement.
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Fam, you gotta see the flaw in what you're saying lol. It's not "random crap". This is the best current Jacqui player that plays against high level competitive players. He only plays this character too. There's definitely validation to the mu chart. Also, by that logic nobody ever in their life should make a tier list lol. Nobody is gonna have their own mu charts for all 100 variations.

Btw you mentioned Cassie comparing her to Full Auto? Nah Bruh

Edit: I'm actually curious how you would make a tier list. I hope it's not based on tools. Straight up, a tier list needs to be on mu's otherwise it makes no sense
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
tafka Djinn said:
DF vs GM was already a 5-5, and now it's just a slightly different feeling 5-5. Burst is better on block! But Liu Kang doesn't seem to be subject to the old anti-Goro setup. Honestly, it's the same MU it was only with a different texture.
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I think Sub won pre patch because he tore him a new asshole in the corner.
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
omooba said:
not just dominating neutral. i said three things if you win neutral out zone him and you don't get mopped by his pressure. what exactly is he supposed to be doing against these characters. i don't think he can even punish smoke's b3 smoke bomb with his njp's hitbox. f2 is his main pressure starter and it get's mopped by ball roll and triborgs d3. and they all out footsie him how is any of these 5-5?
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He just plays like a normal character against them thats what I'm saying, that doesn't mean he loses though. He doesn't get out zoned by any of them, I think it's pretty equal actually he just has to make reads on tele ports, he can low fireball under Mileena's sai and Sektors straight missiles on reaction at full screen and just run in if he sees up rockets. When he gets to midrange he plays like he does against any other character.

And his pressure isn't terrible against these characters either it just works a bit differently. He can bait Smoke's fade and Mileenas roll just like any other reversal, or use F4 to check cheeky Mileena's who roll a lot and hit confirm to a full combo on hit and DB2 on block. With Sektor his pressure is literally the same as against any other character.

You're acting like he's helpless against these characters because they have options around his stuff but that's not the case at all, he just has to make more reads on things that are usually pretty braindead anyway. Don't get me wrong they aren't easy matchups which is why I've got them at 5-5, I just don't see him losing them though.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
The_Tile said:
3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.
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HQT has definitely been shown to be strong. Destroyer has been doing really well with him, even won a competition I forget the name of. King also won a major with him.

Also HQT loses to Cassie and Liu Kang ;)
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Youphemism said:
HQT has definitely been shown to be strong. Destroyer has been doing really well with him, even won a competition I forget the name of. King also won a major with him.

Also HQT loses to Cassie and Liu Kang ;)
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Really? I feel HQT dominates the neutral even against Dragons Fire. I know Liu can go ham when he gets in though which is why I had it as a 5-5, what makes you think he loses?
 
gam224

gam224

The world's least hype player
omooba said:
Low Lazer isn't safe
Liu Kang looses to smoke, sektor mileena and I think mournful but I'm not sure about that last one. Basically if you can outzone him and out footsie him and you don't get raped by his pressure you're good.
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Mournful wins but 6-4 flame fist. It's about even in DF because of ex air fireballs
 
D7X

D7X

EMPEROR | D7X
I personally think Cybernetic should be tier 2. It has amazing tools to deal with. great neutral, staggers, mids, zoning, counter zoning, and amazing corner dmg
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
D7X said:
I personally think Cybernetic should be tier 2. It has amazing tools to deal with. great neutral, staggers, mids, zoning, counter zoning, and amazing corner dmg
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I was gonna say the same tbh. Idk his mu's though. But he seems extremely solid
 
Yer_Da

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Had a second look over the revised list and wanted to offer comments on the characters I play.

Dragon Breath and Bartitsu are pretty much spot on. Drunken Master still belongs in tier four, yes, Bo has very good base tools but this is a variation tier list and DM offers absolutely nothing in this stage of the game that justifies picking it over the other two, it is absolute mince.

As for Reptile, I agree with Deceptive and Noxious but I think Nimble needs to be a touch higher in tier two - what that character can do on reaction, with a bar, is absolutely terrifying.
 
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