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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

What unrefractable, ik you mean unreactable, projectile are you referring to?
Sorry, I meant un reflectable, Kenshi and Ferra Thor have the only projectibles That cannot be reflected or parried ( Kothal can parry Ferra, but not Kenshi projectiles). Kenshi has the ultimate projectile. If those projectiles were even faster, He'll be unmatched in this game.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Sorry, I meant un reflectable, Kenshi and Ferra Thor have the only projectibles That cannot be reflected or parried ( Kothal can parry Ferra, but not Kenshi projectiles). Kenshi has the ultimate projectile. If those projectiles were even faster, He'll be unmatched in this game.
Possessed isn't great because of his zoning though
 
Takeda ronin in tier 3? I feel like ronin is at least tier 2. He has a restand, good 1 bar damage, great pressure, full screen zoning, full screen low launcher.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Can someone please explain why Ronin has went from an undisputed top 10 variation to, potentially, a bottom 15/20 variation?

I don't play the character so I'm not saying Hayatei and Dock are wrong about him but I honestly don't see what makes him THAT bad now.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
This is one of the best lists I've seen. So great job.

Adjustments I'd make:

Unbreakable tier 3 [It's a decent character, but so are quite a lot of tier 3; too many risks that are full combo punishable.]

Metallic tier 3 [Tremor without IA quakes or armor just isn't in the same league, its good but not tier 2]

Warrior tier 3 [This character is not trash at all. No character with a safe special that can safe armor after is trash.]

Sorceror tier 2 [He's super strong no doubt, but he isn't tier 1. Mainly due to his defense on knockdown.]

Demolition tier 1/2 [Shes super good, like the rest of tier 2. It's hard to judge a character when only Scar represents her at the highest level and everyone else falls short even before the nerfs; she has a one dimensional play style and can struggle without exceptional reload timings and spacing. For me tier 2.]

Lasher tier 2 [Jumping around spamming whips is fun until a character has the tools to stop it and then hes quite bland, A tier 1 character doesn't care too much about the opponents tools.]

Hellfire tier 1 [One of the few characters that can slow the pace of the game down, can't be zoned, wins in the air for full combo. Excellent cancel pressure and throw game, with a super solid d4 and a counterpoke check (aura) you're playing his game.]

Ethereal Tier 1 [Same as hellfire, controls the game. Its her mistakes that will make her lose and the opponents needs to take risks to open her up, which are usually in her favour, don't jump!]

Stunt double tier 3 [I hate what NRS did to cage but SD is ok. He has a dirty counterpoke game with clones up and fullscreen mid projectiles and armored wake-ups are good.]

Konjurer Tier 4 [If the facehugger didn't whiff on low profiles or jumps, this would be a decent character, no
character can be competitively viable when its tools don't work due to hitbox issues, randomness puts this character in the trash.]

Tigrar Fury (possible tier 2) [Great frame data, solid projectiles, good character.]

Cyrax Tier 2 [With tri-borgs toolset {backdash,111,F13,throw,run speed,anti-airs} and the threat of EX-SAW in the neutral he can cause some serious damage to the opponent. Devastating set-ups and THE best corner game in the current meta; you best have that breaker ready.]

Smoke Tier 1 [As with all tier 1 characters, you play his game. On knockdown you have to respect his wake-up game and he has a nice little vortex. B2 is one of THE best whiffs punishers/mids and add in his teleport cancel in the air (which can launch) and the cheap mix with a smoke screen. Hobart is the king of mix.]

Ronin Tier 1/2 [Great projectile - Excellent mid pressure - Safe air dash - Cancels - Decent mix. His wake-up game is what puts him out of tier 1 but that debatable, I'm on the fence.]

Hat trick tier 2 [Low pokes into specials, are cancer and this character embraces it with a passion. Ex hat-toss is underrated and the pressure he can create using it to stay plus is a strong mind game that the opponent has to respect. Great wake-up game and some decent set-ups.]
Stunt Double is not in the same tier as Alist and Fisti

I feel is placed correctly I don't even play SD anymore unless needed.

But Alist and Fisti are a tier a head
Well I do think SD beating better than all the others in tier 4 but most of tier 3 variations being better so I'd say he's like somewhere between
King of tier 4 lol

But I agree with HF being tier 1
I don't think people realise yet how good this character is right now

Nice list Crazy but be nicer with Hellfire Tier 1 lol

BloodGood is tier 4 for sure

Hmmmm I just noticed your list is in order

I think you got Cage too low
I think Alist > Fisti should be near the top of tier 3 and SD near the bottom of tier 3 so Zionix in the end I actually agree with you lol
Although I'd have Cryo, Brood Mother and Ronin above them maybe it even shifted up a tier
 
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IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I will state this however, Tarkatan...is just Bojutsu with better hit advantage...soooo probably gonna see him higher up.
I think you're being too generous with Leatherface honestly

It's great in practice mode but in real matches it's too difficult to insolent what makes him shine

I'd personally put him in tier 4 but that's just me
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I think you're being too generous with Leatherface honestly

It's great in practice mode but in real matches it's too difficult to insolent what makes him shine

I'd personally put him in tier 4 but that's just me
Nah he's got stuff he just needs to work a little bit to get it going. I wouldn't compare him to the garbage in Tier 4. I've been playing Leatherface throughout the entirety of his lifetime, I'm confident in where i've put him.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Alright I have reworked the list a bit. Now before all the GM's come in here and get super salty about where I put Grandmaster. Here me out. I understand that he has some ABYSMAL matchups. Like, ram your head into a spike over and over again kind of matchups. HOWEVER! His ability to completely shut down a little over half the cast simply because "lul klone" can't be ignored. While he might have more losing MU's than he does 5-5's he also has more "I body you because I exist" MU's. A character that dominates THAT MUCH of the cast can't be anything less than on the top of the food chain. Hope you all enjoy the list with the changes i've made.
 

GOOD DRAGON

Awesometacular
worst matchups (4-6 or worse) Liu Kang ff and df, Cassie hollywood and brawler, Hellfire scorp, mystic Ermac, Demo Sonya, Mileena Etheral, Sorcerer Quan

hard matchups (probably 4.5-5.5) Jacqui Briggs Full auto, FT Ruthless, Jason Unstoppable, Liu Kang Dualist
You forgot to add sektor, nimble reptile and displacer to that list. HQT struggles in those match ups i thinks.

Sektor can punish his zoning attempts from full screen with 34% plus damage.

Reptile can slide under laser's, has the overhead pounce for low lasers and if he gets you in the corner its pretty much ggs.

Displacer negates zoning attempts, has a full corner carry double armour special and f12 breaks preds armour very easily.

A few other match ups i am unsure about as well - kano, tremor
 

GOOD DRAGON

Awesometacular
I feel like nimble reptile should be way higher on that list. If the list is in order he should be in the top 5 of tier 2 if not higher (a number of other people have mentioned this as well) - only 1 person in the entire FGC plays him right and he only has 5 bad match ups and at worst its 4-6.

-Full corner carry combos
- 45% 1 bars,
-62% 2 bars,
-solid (9f) advancing mid overhead string,
-fastest armour in the game,
-pretty fast plus on block overhead (think its 13f)
-counter zoning
- Great trash talker i mean he has it all
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
he only has 5 bad match ups and at worst its 4-6.
While I agree that Reptile is very good, that matchup claim is simply not true, he has, at least, five matches that are 3-7.

EDIT: 10 matches that are 3-7 if you want to boil it down to individual variations.
 
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GOOD DRAGON

Awesometacular
While I agree that Reptile is very good, that matchup claim is simply not true, he has, at least, five matches that are 3-7.
Please name them - as far as i know the best nimble reptile says he only has 5 bad match ups and anyone who thinks different is a xxxxxx(his words not mine) he's also french so i don't know if that factors in
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Please name them - as far as i know the best nimble reptile says he only has 5 bad match ups and anyone who thinks different is a dumbass (his words not mine) he's also french so i don't know if that factors in
Sektor
Scorpion (Hellfire/Inferno)
Raiden (Displacer)
Mileena (all variations)
Ermac (all variations)

The person you refer to is @HappyPow and you'll find the MU chart that he and I collaborated on in the Reptile forum.
 

GOOD DRAGON

Awesometacular
Sektor
Scorpion (Hellfire/Inferno)
Raiden (Displacer)
Mileena (all variations)
Ermac (all variations)

The person you refer to is @HappyPow and you'll find the MU chart that he and I collaborated on in the Reptile forum.
Damn i got told quick. lol
Is that what you call him? I know him as french mong
ok so as far as i am aware he ONLY has those 5 bad match ups- i would argue they are deff not 7-3's they are at most 6.5-3.5's.
Don't you agree he should be higher on the tier list?
 
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Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Stunt Double is not in the same tier as Alist and Fisti

I feel is placed correctly I don't even play SD anymore unless needed.

But Alist and Fisti are a tier a head
Well I do think SD beating better than all the others in tier 4 but most of tier 3 variations being better so I'd say he's like somewhere between
King of tier 4 lol

But I agree with HF being tier 1
I don't think people realise yet how good this character is right now

Nice list Crazy but be nicer with Hellfire Tier 1 lol

BloodGood is tier 4 for sure

Hmmmm I just noticed your list is in order

I think you got Cage too low
I think Alist > Fisti should be near the top of tier 3 and SD near the bottom of tier 3 so Zionix in the end I actually agree with you lol
Although I'd have Cryo, Brood Mother and Ronin above them maybe it even shifted up a tier
I think although weaker in offense; SD has superior defensive reversals/wake-ups, no hurt-box anti air, counter-pokes with clones and more screen control. Having a -3 fast two hitting mid in F34 can really help in some match-ups and when stamina starved. The forceballs really hurt SD the most.

Cage is just not great overall, but SD is no way tier 4. His variations have a similar power level, with A-list being slightly ahead. I could be wrong though and he's secret top 10
 
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You forgot to add sektor, nimble reptile and displacer to that list. HQT struggles in those match ups i thinks.

Sektor can punish his zoning attempts from full screen with 34% plus damage.

Reptile can slide under laser's, has the overhead pounce for low lasers and if he gets you in the corner its pretty much ggs.

Displacer negates zoning attempts, has a full corner carry double armour special and f12 breaks preds armour very easily.

A few other match ups i am unsure about as well - kano, tremor
I think Predator beats sektor. His pressure doesn't threaten him much and he can't outzone him. Sektor gets bullied in the corner. Sektor can't teleport to Pred's low laser on reaction. It's more of a guess. Reptile Predator matchup might be 5-5 but Predator doesn't lose the matchup. You said reptile can slide under lasers but the risk isn't worth the reward. If I block the slide, I get 37-40% plus a disc setup. It's not ggs if Reptile gets Pred in the corner. His pressure is decent but its not that hard to get out of. Displacer vs Pred is 5-5. I can't zone freely but I can pressure Raiden and bait out the teleport. I've played against bkit, forever king, and goonie. Seems like a solid 5-5.
 
Can someone please explain why Ronin has went from an undisputed top 10 variation to, potentially, a bottom 15/20 variation?

I don't play the character so I'm not saying Hayatei and Dock are wrong about him but I honestly don't see what makes him THAT bad now.
He isn't bad but he isn't that good either wherever the middle is it's where he is and here it's tier 3