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Complaining about deadshot? I have a ? for you.

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Saying shit like this is getting stupid.

Explain your point all the same, but be original for a change.
Yeah my post was more condescending than it needed to be. What I wanted to say was that while I can fully recognize that it's super frustrating to be zoned out(it is don't lie), it needs to be there. Deadshot needs to be able to zone you with projectiles the whole game, so that Aquaman can take half your life in one bar and have access to easy footsie tools, so Canary can mix you up, and so Batman can force you to make friends with pushblock. It's just better for the game for more people to have access to their preferred way to play for the game's life. It's why a lot of people got burned out on MKX due to most of the characters(the good ones anyways) being based on offense.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
If NRS decides to nerf Deadshot, it should NOT be his zoning. It should be his rush down game because that character has safe 50/50s that leads into full combos. lol

You nerf his zoning this happens ---> he goes from a ZONING character into a HYBRID character and that is not what Deadshot should be.
 

ColdBoreMK23

Noob Saibot
I have about 150 matches in online and faced a handful of deadshots who I assume were SF's stream viewers. They were constantly missing get inputs and whiffing. I just sat full screen with Fate or Black Adam and zoned them and teabagged.

I see no problem with zoning, especially after a day of release.

The people complaining about it would get mopped up by 50/50''s or rushdown. Zoning is just an excuse because they don't know how to play the game.

It also doesn't help that people with little to no fighting game knowledge are picking this game up, popping it in and going online.

It's amazing that the FGC never learns from past mistakes about complaining about nerfs/buffs.
 

Jay Rupp

Human Smoke or Riot
I have been lucky enough to play for about a week. The Dead shot is everything I have wanted minus a good D2. Watch the stream here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144249947 for sonic fox play.

In this archive note the chat. People going CRAZY about deadshot zoning.

Here is my question. Why is it ok when someone puts you in a standing reset/5050 and one touch of deaths you like Cap Cold, Cheetah, Canary but when zoning is actually good and you can keep them out the entire match its cancer?

I have news for you. Even if they nerf the crap out of dead shot, the same people losing in this video with sonic fox would still lose THE EXACT SAME WAY! And those people complaining would still lose to 50/50s and be ok with it? Just wait until you guys see what canary or cap cold are capable of. Dead shot has some very clear issues and in the beginning of the game zoning always seems stronger than it is bc people don't have bnbs down and understand punishes.

Anti zoning scrubs are hypocrites and make me sick. Fighting games are not just about standing in front of each other and swinging your arms with your eyes closed leaning away like a 12 yo girl. Zoning and space control are an essential part of a good game. As honey bee said in support of deadshot "Get Gud"

THERE IS NO RUN BUTTON IN THIS GAME IT IS NOT MKX!
I think most people dislike zoning because of how easy it is. Deathstroke had less zoning tools and he got turbo nerfed. I'm guessing it will be a similar story with Deadshot. Hopefully he recovers from it because Deathstroke never did.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
I think Deadshot is a pretty cool character. I like his lines, style, etc. But I don't really want to take time to learn him because I believe he will get normalized, possibly severely so.

He's pretty damn easy to use too. I feel there is a fine line between ease of use and how good a char is. He seems really solid thus far with mix ups, damage, top zoning, the list goes on AND he's really easy to use. A very dangerous combination.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
The argument about "is zoning bad" is nearly irrelevant. It dosn't matter if you can play around it or if it requires less skill to use brain dead zoning vs defending against it..

What is important is how players relate to it, and the majority consensus is that it is boring to watch and frustrating to play against.

You can arguer till your blue in the face that "scrubs need to L2P" or w/e... but that is missing the real issue here, in that this aspect of fighting games is nearly universally despised, particularly by the casual crowd, and it is the casuals that fuel eSports as viewers and account for a much larger section of sales..

Now we all like zoning to some extent, but the very fact there IS a 100 page thread here, news articles on gaming sites about this and literally 1000s of people complaining is the ACTUAL point here.

This kind of thing just shouldn't be in the game at all.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
When the inevitable nerfs come to Deadshot, braindead zoners will just move to Darkseid. No one is playing the well designed zoners - like Dr. Fate, Firestorm, and Captain Cold because there is no need to put in any work if you can just outrange your opponents safely with little thought or practice.

On the other side, Canary is a pretty brain dead rushdown character at this point too.

MKX Quan Chi was the perfect zoner, IMO. Nothing he had was brain dead, but he was great nonetheless.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
like I said before I love zoning but I wouldn't care if scrubs get it nerfed to oblivion, that would just make it easier for my Scarecrow, Aquaman, Wonder Women & Batman.
 
Still, nobody is answering my question. You have to remember if they nerf dead shot the only people truly affected will be tournament players. And at a tournament level the character is 100% fine. He has some clear issues like his anti-air Mid screen convertible damage. If you Nerf this character the only people affected will be tournament players because scrubs and casual players will still lose exactly the same way even if you add 15 frames are recovery to his high shot. It was the same as deathstroke they did nerf him but it didn't matter at a casual level because they were still losing literally the same exact way. But at a high-level it changed everything about him
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Still, nobody is answering my question. You have to remember if they nerf dead shot the only people truly affected will be tournament players. And at a tournament level the character is 100% fine. He has some clear issues like his anti-air Mid screen convertible damage. If you Nerf this character the only people affected will be tournament players because scrubs and casual players will still lose exactly the same way even if you add 15 frames are recovery to his high shot. It was the same as deathstroke they did nerf him but it didn't matter at a casual level because they were still losing literally the same exact way. But at a high-level it changed everything about him
Why are you wasting your time arguing? This is a NRS game and you know he is getting a nerf to appease the casuals. Might as well not even waste ur time typing. The one thing I will say after playing for a few hours last night is that his meter build on his projectiles is pretty high as a first impression.
 
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M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Like how they NERFED A-LIST INTO THE GROUND for no reason?

Good, good, revenge is finally at hand.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
@PLAYING TO WIN Fuck it, just main the next top tier char, its part of the NRs norm now, nothing we can do about it.

I'm guessing Subz is gonna be "OP" then nerfed to the ground week one just like he did in MKX.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Still, nobody is answering my question. You have to remember if they nerf dead shot the only people truly affected will be tournament players. And at a tournament level the character is 100% fine. He has some clear issues like his anti-air Mid screen convertible damage. If you Nerf this character the only people affected will be tournament players because scrubs and casual players will still lose exactly the same way even if you add 15 frames are recovery to his high shot. It was the same as deathstroke they did nerf him but it didn't matter at a casual level because they were still losing literally the same exact way. But at a high-level it changed everything about him
Exactly this. The online casuals who were complaining the most about zoning characters like death stroke in IGAU still lost to him the exact same way after they nerfed his zoning. It is a simple issue of no will/desire/care to learn how to overcome something perceived as difficult. They could add recovery frames to every projectile attack in the game but the people who have no patience or understanding of the game will still get blown up by projectiles just as much as in the current version. So any changes or nerfs ultimately will only affect tournament players anyway and will not change the experience of an online casual.
 
Not gonna lie. I used the term broken last night in a fit of salt in reference to Firestorm and I'm a but embarrassed by it now. It's literally only day two.
 

Temetias

"MKX kid"
Still, nobody is answering my question.
I think there has been many that have answered tho. Most of the answers have been about execution vs reward -balance. The way deadshot is right now, makes it so that with minimal effort he puts the opponent in a position that requires a lot of effort and execution to get out of.

I'm personally not defending anyone since I dont have the game yet but I'm just pointing out that there has been many excellent posts answering your question. Maybe you should actually read them.
 

shura30

Shura
Here is my question. Why is it ok when someone puts you in a standing reset/5050 and one touch of deaths you like Cap Cold, Cheetah, Canary but when zoning is actually good and you can keep them out the entire match its cancer?

your premise is entirely wrong so is the question
zoning is not just unreactable, unpunishable projectile spam
tods should not exist especially when there's no rounds in a match
standing resets into guaranteed stuff is just bad character design

all of these subs to the main topic can be treated the same
they should not exist in a genre that is supposed to reward player strategic thinking, creativity and reactions

if we're still debating this, we failed as players and community

now this is the theory
but since at least some of us intend to play i2 for its whole cycle let's try and go deeper

an 'overpowered' tool should be adjusted only when:

- there's no way around it despite tools that are designed as counters
- the defending player is completely taken out of the equation made of frames, hit levels and a human player

possibly the defender's options should be modified to the point they can be viable and only if they don't break other areas or aspects of the game rather than taking out the attacker's
but this is an ideal scenario and applies to situations in which a character isn't entirely built around a single strategy so in general 'nerfing' is almost always the correct solution but not in the way/amount we've seen so far where the character viability has been mostly compromised

building on all of this, to evaluate a character tool or strategy we should ask a few questions in the form of a flowchart, in the case of this 'broken' zoning:

- do I have options against it? (leaping moves possibly with invincibility, MB roll, jumps, teleports, flying)
- can I use these options to bait my opponent into a mistake? (ie wrong projectile timing, wrong distance, minus frames)
- can I capitalize on my opponent's mistake to my own advantage? (ie getting my big rewarding punish and damage starting my own setplay aswell)
- is it correct to play like this?are my/opponent's skills really tested?


if the most predominant answer to all of this is 'no' (including having to resort to a counterpick) it's just another case of bad design
true, the average user here has a tendency to quickly jump to conclusions but this behavior comes off more than a bunch of non rewarding scenarios in which even guessing right could've been used at our own disadvantage

I would really like to hear a few opinions on this so plz respond
 

kingjack21

When's Mahvel
I think there has been many that have answered tho. Most of the answers have been about execution vs reward -balance. The way deadshot is right now, makes it so that with minimal effort he puts the opponent in a position that requires a lot of effort and execution to get out of.

I'm personally not defending anyone since I don't have the game yet but I'm just pointing out that there has been many excellent posts answering your question. Maybe you should actually read them.
I think you're right man. That's the main scenario, its hard for his opponent to get in, and its very easy for him to keep them out,

Obviously there's still more lab sessions to be done and people will figure out some stuff to work against it,

Don't you think when his opponent gets in, it should be hard for him to get out, or suck at neutral or something? As in i legit wanna know, i'm curious.
 
I have been lucky enough to play for about a week. The Dead shot is everything I have wanted minus a good D2. Watch the stream here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144249947 for sonic fox play.

In this archive note the chat. People going CRAZY about deadshot zoning.

Here is my question. Why is it ok when someone puts you in a standing reset/5050 and one touch of deaths you like Cap Cold, Cheetah, Canary but when zoning is actually good and you can keep them out the entire match its cancer?

I have news for you. Even if they nerf the crap out of dead shot, the same people losing in this video with sonic fox would still lose THE EXACT SAME WAY! And those people complaining would still lose to 50/50s and be ok with it? Just wait until you guys see what canary or cap cold are capable of. Dead shot has some very clear issues and in the beginning of the game zoning always seems stronger than it is bc people don't have bnbs down and understand punishes.

Anti zoning scrubs are hypocrites and make me sick. Fighting games are not just about standing in front of each other and swinging your arms with your eyes closed leaning away like a 12 yo girl. Zoning and space control are an essential part of a good game. As honey bee said in support of deadshot "Get Gud"

THERE IS NO RUN BUTTON IN THIS GAME IT IS NOT MKX!
Yeh yeh all pretty ok but can we stop insulting people by saying they are like girls? Thank you.