Complaining about deadshot? I have a ? for you.

[Cashual]

IMO, zoning is like corner camping in a FPS: It's lazy. Why learn combos when I can just shoot my guns across the screen? I don't like this 'must win at all costs' mentality. Get out there, get your ass kicked, stop being afraid to lose and become a better player because of it.

Though I don't want zoning to be irradicated because frankly people can do whatever the heck they want, but to me, they're going to be missing out on most of the game's mechanics and their skill will be limited to that specific strategy in a game you need to be versatile in.

This is definitely a casual mentality. That somehow it's cowardly to prefer ranged characters, and that doing combos are what.....hard? You think P2W, M2Dave, pig, etc. just aren't capable of doing combos? That's what you're implying with the suggestion that these guys just shoot guns instead of learning combos and it's completely untrue. In fact, playing a zoning character means you often have to learn really weird, full screen or 3/4 screen conversions off of stray hits to really be effective.

The underpinning of what you're saying is that it inherently takes more skill to what? Use a safe armor move, or a ridiculous jump in attack that's hard to AA, and then apply overhead/low mixups into 40% combos? Is it hard to do pokes into tick throws? What is the "right, fair, and honorable" to play the game?

There is a ton of depth to characters to dr fate. That's not to say that some people online won't just relentlessly machine gun off fast recovery projectiles thoughtlessly. But at the same time, there are a shit ton of people who mindlessly jump in, and "spam" safe mixups or abuse other cheesy tactics.

Your post honestly is just so far off base and it paints you as someone who has no clue about the mechanics, balance, and design of fighting games. It surprises me that someone would find this site, make an account, and post, yet make a post like that.

And for the record I have no opinion on deadshot as my copy hasn't arrived, this post is a response about zoning in general. I don't even play mainly zoners and I still think the post I quoted just stinks.

 

[Son ov Timett]

Aside from mb roll, take one's character into the lab and see what your reversal attack options are full screen. I only went through a few characters and most have options. With Atrocitus ye can counter with blood nado, with adam throw some lightning, supes can dash punch when he's within range (as well as air laser), Aquaman can tentacle strike, so forth and so on.

Legit more concerned with his strings up close than pew pew.

 

[DubiousShenron]

People hate projectiles because they hate neutral. These are the same people that play to hit you one time and keep hitting you until you guess right a la batgirl. Somehow that's what they enjoy. Having a preset sequence of buttons to press on hit or on block and no reaction based play.

If people are gonna advocate for no projectiles then I'm gonna cry for the screen to be only big enough to fit the 2 characters on it cause there's no point to a fullscreen without projectiles

If these people had it their way they would be standing on each other's toes pressing buttons with no ability to walk back, use the screen or react to anything.

Projectiles give fighting games more depth, end of story

Edit: Also on the other side of that argument, if characters like fate and deadshot didn't exist, then characters on the opposite side of the spectrum, like bane wouldn't be justified. So without zoning and without extremely powerful upclose and personal rushdown, all characters in injustice 2 would be in the middle of the spectrum and that's exactly why mkx sucked. Please we don't need mkx again guys if you hate neutral, footsies, defense,a nd fireballs go play mkx

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Still, nobody is answering my question.

I directly answered your question

 

[villainous monk]

You and I are similarly wired, so I have a suggestion for you to get some much needed insight in how zoners operate. In order to beat good zoning without zoning yourself, it helps to understand what zoners look for and what they look to do. Likewise, it helps pure zoners in zoning to talk to someone with your mindset. So, do not put zoners off - rather embrace them as friends and rivals and try to engage them in meaningful discussion. Start simple with a compliment and a question...

@GAV

You used Ghost Dog. Way of the Samurai. A cult classic and a movie full of life lessons.

Top tier post right here.

 

[Madog32]

lol at all the zoners in here going off the deep end!

No respectable player thinks that projectiles shouldn't be a strong aspect of the game. But the difficulty (or skill) required to make your way in against those projectiles should be on par with the difficulty (or skill) to execute that zoning. And the strength of said zoning should be balanced by the lack of any good in-your-face tools. IMO, a pure zoner should be afraid when their opponent finally makes their way in, not just be able to change agenda and 50/50 them (looking at you DS). Pushblock should be a zoners best friend up close, yet here we have someone who controls the full screen match, and still has (what I'm told are safe) 50/50's for when you finally catch him.

And the coin has 2 sides - a pure rushdown character should struggle from full screen, but after making their way in through all the zoning they shouldn't be fearing a (safe) 50/50 mixup that will send them back to full screen. They theoretically did the work to get through the zoning, and their reward should be a chance at playing their game for a minute. If that means you have to guess right 1 time so you can pushblock them out, how is that any different than the opponent having to make the read on when to jump/dash/MB roll through your zoning? Or worse, they hit you with the mix and you have to spend 2 bars for an escape! Considering the way meter is built in this game, it shouldn't be long before a dedicated zoner has enough meter to afford one if necessary.

All this is to say its way too early to call for nerfs/buffs for anyone, and we should play it out for a bit. No one likes to be forced to play the game your character does not excel at, but with the limited time/experience we currently have, it doesn't seem like DS struggles with any aspect. I'd be willing to guess that is why he's in the crosshairs (and also why SonicFox gravitated towards him)

 

[Wigy]

A-list is still fine just not brain dead.

Are you high, a list is fucked.

Not to mention prepatch jc was more skill intensive than pretty much all of the viable cast.

 

[Crusty]

I think people want a kind of zoning that doesn't really exist in the other games they admire. The issue is never if zoning is good -- the issue is if it takes thinking and skill to execute that's on par with what getting through the zoning requires.

If the answer is "yes", then it's fine.

The issue here is that people want zoning that they don't have to think about at all, that can keep the opponent at bay for free in half their matchups -- and when you change it so that they have to think about every projectile they throw out, the response is "Omg zoning is dead, there's no zoning this game".

In fact people DID stand up against braindead 50/50 launchers out of EX plus-frames in MKX, and things were changed. The first two characters I've seen people complaining about in INJ2 are Superman and Batman, who aren't even 50/50 characters or pure zoners at all.

So I agree with Bit -- people are actually speaking up about various things, and not all about zoning as implied here.

Either way, if it requires less thought to execute than it does to counteract it'll be toned down. If not, then it's fine. We'll see which is which as we go.

You gotta understand just because a zoner requires doesn't mean they're balanced. Zod required a lot of thought but his zoning was retarded.

Execution does not justify how broken something is.

I know what you meant by your post is "mindless" zoning should be toned down and "thoughtful" zoning should be left alone but I'd like to present a counter argument that it doesn't matter which it is, if it's good enough to present a problem to a majority of the cast at the highest possible level, then it should be toned down.

 

[RNLDRGN]

Once ppl learn when to walk/dash and how to properly use MB roll zoning won't be as much of a headache.

That said... his MB rifle needs to be toned down a tad. A non-jumpable ex move that pushes you half screen on block with a character that builds meter like crazy is pretty nuts right now. But I also main Swamp so lol no shit I feel that way.

 

[villainous monk]

Honestly some of you guys are foul.

Whatever happened to counter picking your opponent?

Whatever happened to picking a zoner against a zoner or a trap set character?

Why not use the timer on the level and force the zoner to do more then chip when you block but work your way in and out forcing them to open up and adjust to your game plan.

Why does everyone cry about some of the shitty strings he has but don't lab the character themselves? Why not use the stage or your spacing as well as your range to cut down on his game plan.

The game is 1 day old and people are crying foul but not using their heads to think of a way to get in and out instead of rushing in then standing still when that doesn't work.

Fighting games aren't snakes and ladders. It's chess. Use your head, the OTHER CHARACTERS & stage itself. Couterpick and use dead shot or another zoner. Mirror match and learn.

Sad.

 

[Vithar]

It's really ''r*tarded'' how people think that Zoning is ''bad/lame'' but 33/33/33 into reset while their mouth is pouring saliva is something ''normal''.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You gotta understand just because a zoner requires doesn't mean they're balanced. Zod required a lot of thought but his zoning was (soap bar in my mouth).

Execution does not justify how broken something is.

I know what you meant by your post is "mindless" zoning should be toned down and "thoughtful" zoning should be left alone but I'd like to present a counter argument that it doesn't matter which it is, if it's good enough to present a problem to a majority of the cast at the highest possible level, then it should be toned down.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that Zod was top tier because once you got in on him, he had just as many dangerous tools, and mixups with the trait grab etc., as he did when you were out.

The issue wasn't the zoning alone -- it was allowing a character to have oppressive offense both at point-blank and fullscreen.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

Zoners be like i need muh brain dead OP zoning, I need it mommy I need it.

 

[Shaka]

Why are capcom players able to deal with Sagat, Guile, Ryu, Dhalsim, Morigon/Dr Doom etc and the NRs community just can't figure it out?

There's a reason this community is disrespected.

 

[Chakk dizzle]

Honestly some of you guys are foul.

Whatever happened to counter picking your opponent?

Whatever happened to picking a zoner against a zoner or a trap set character?

Why not use the timer on the level and force the zoner to do more then chip when you block but work your way in and out forcing them to open up and adjust to your game plan.

Why does everyone cry about some of the shitty strings he has but don't lab the character themselves? Why not use the stage or your spacing as well as your range to cut down on his game plan.

The game is 1 day old and people are crying foul but not using their heads to think of a way to get in and out instead of rushing in then standing still when that doesn't work.

Fighting games aren't snakes and ladders. It's chess. Use your head, the OTHER CHARACTERS & stage itself. Couterpick and use dead shot or another zoner. Mirror match and learn.

Sad.

Whatever happened to catching a good old fashion passionate ass whooping and getting your shoes, coat and your hat tookin?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

but why does he get safe 50/50s on top of that?

Yeah. I did talk about his safe 50/50s when Ketchup and Mustard made a vid about Deadshot but people were like '''ohhhh, calm down. it's too early to talk about balance''.

Super good zoning + safe 50/50s that leads into full combos. lol. I'm totally fine with his zoning because he is supposed to be an extremely good zoner, but i'm not fine at all with his safe 50/50s.

 

[ismael4790]

Only thing that should be considered now in terms of nerfs (we shouldn't even be talking about balance on day 2, anyway...) are his 50/50s. Very strong in the corner, a zoner doesn't need that. Wakeup is fine, projectiles are fine (maybe some slight increase in bf1 recovery). Nothing else.

People lost to -53 on whiff teleflurry in mkx, so give this a time, most of the complaints come from people that don't know how to deal with zoning. Lab.

 

[Skkra]

I got the game last night and only messed around in the lab for a few hours. So I have zero frame of reference outside of youtube videos where pro players are beating up on scrubs in ranked.

Does anyone have a video that they can link of two good players going at it that shows someone competently handling Deadshot's zoning? All I see online is Pros steamrolling Joes. I'd be interested to see how a high level match with someone who knows what they're doing plays out.

Clearly, Injustice didn't get through QA and somehow no one noticed that repeated standing gunshot is the most dominant strategy in the entire game.

 

[Juggs]

Guns don't kill people y'all, good players do. Stop spreading your gun control propaganda! According to the "Zoners Guide to the Galaxy" handbook section SA.2, zoning is a legitimate tool in fighting games where only the elite players can flourish. Zoners must protect themselves and their families, how can they do that without their proverbial 'pew pews'?

 

[Eldriken]

I think there has been many that have answered tho. Most of the answers have been about execution vs reward -balance. The way deadshot is right now, makes it so that with minimal effort he puts the opponent in a position that requires a lot of effort and execution to get out of.

I'm personally not defending anyone since I dont have the game yet but I'm just pointing out that there has been many excellent posts answering your question. Maybe you should actually read them.

This. The risk/reward factor is so heavily skewed in Deadshot's favor that it's unbelievable.

Yes, we're on day two and things still need to get figured out. However, it is clear as day that a slight bit of balancing needs to be directed at him. I just hope when they inevitably "normalize" him that it isn't based off of knee-jerk reactions and they fuck it up.

If anyone thinks he's completely balanced as of right now, then instead of questioning other peoples' opinion, why not EXPLAIN WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.

 

[Madog32]

This. The risk/reward factor is so heavily skewed in Deadshot's favor that it's unbelievable.

Yes, we're on day two and things still need to get figured out. However, it is clear as day that a slight bit of balancing needs to be directed at him. I just hope when they inevitably "normalize" him that it isn't based off of knee-jerk reactions and they fuck it up.

If anyone thinks he's completely balanced as of right now, then instead of questioning other peoples' opinion, why not EXPLAIN WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.

I believe the solution given thus far is "mirror match" hehe

 

[BigMacMcLovin]

Whatever happened to catching a good old fashion passionate ass whooping and getting your shoes, coat and your hat tookin?

I want to make several alt-accounts just so I can like this more than once

 

[Scoot Magee]

Nothing ever changes lol.

 

[huh]

Does anyone have a video that they can link of two good players going at it that shows someone competently handling Deadshot's zoning? All I see online is Pros steamrolling Joes. I'd be interested to see how a high level match with someone who knows what they're doing plays out.

See the last video in the OP:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/goddess-of-war-wonder-woman-breakdown.63820/

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

Nerfing him him will change nothing. The people complaining will lose the exact same way regardless because they aren't good at the game. These are the same people who hate 8% Projectiles but think having a 1v1 coin flipping competition is fun and exciting.

Edit: another thing that bothers me is a lot of the people complaining played completely stupid characters with dumb tools other than zoning. Like it's pretty lame watching maximillian complain about zoning when he was a batgirl player and was talking like she was a fair and balanced character.