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Black Canary General Discussion 2.0

Kooron Nation

Kooron Nation

More Ass and Tits for MK11
thlityoursloat said:
Most people I play tend to mash buttons after 21 or 23 so I either front handspring into a punish, front handspring into a crossup jumpin INTO a crossup canary drop or I just cancel into canary drop. Fun times.
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Can't front handspring be interrupted by normals?
 
x TeeJay o

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
EntropicByDesign said:
@x TeeJay o You should accept my guild invite request, lol.

Also,

Yeah, they do tend to kill characters occasionally. I feel like they've learned a ton, but we wont know if they intend to go in with a heavy hand or light touch, until we see the first balance patch. I have a host of characters I mess with, so hopefully I come out just fine after the eventual patch. I cant imagine Canary being nerfed, for instance.. and I have Hood when I have to deal with zoners and such, and Crow just for funsies/neutral dominance.. Though if CW survives with her strength still mostly intact, Hood may get shuffled out. I tend to play around with numerous characters, but try to never focus on more than three.
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My bad what's your tag?
 
ShaolinGunFu

ShaolinGunFu

Warrior
Tiger Wong said:
After a DF1 parry connects, Canary and the opponent are both in wakeup up position. Canary has 0 frame advantage.

You mean to tell me, I just broke/dislocated someone's arm and I can't get a single solitary frame of advantage?
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If you wanna get real about it, it also doesn't make sense that a 5'4'' biker chick who knows martial arts and screams really loud is able to defeat Brainiac, someone who is in the process of collecting and destroying all of existence, either
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
ShaolinGunFu said:
If you wanna get real about it, it also doesn't make sense that a 5'4'' biker chick who knows martial arts and screams really loud is able to defeat Brainiac, someone who is in the process of collecting and destroying all of existence, either
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... it is a 3-7 matchup anyway! Black Canary could have ended the invasion during "Mars Attacks" (that old movie) on her own though!
 
STK

STK

Beso de Muerte + Fantasía Oscura
are you guys only delaying 21 with 2u1 when you go for the l/o mix up? Or do you do the delay on both 21 and 23? I was wondering if im waiting to long for the 2nd attack. I know there is a gap but if feel like im getting blown up out of it more than i should...
 
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Tiger Wong

Tiger Wong

Kombatant
Ok.... so as many of us are aware @Take$$$ has got that good stuff with hard knockdown oki off of 1121+3 and the magic D3. But I gotta be honest.... some of this stuff to catch a lot of wakeup is quite tight. Especially backdashes like Superman's and Catwoman's.

Well there's another hard knockdown that I've been practicing using that works pretty well.

DF3d. Front Handspring Crazy Legs (the Cartwheel Sweep.)

I know what you're thinking.... that move is borderline trash. How are you even gonna connect that thing in this first place?

Well.... it just so happens that you can connect it off a D2. And a cross up j3, D2, DF3d connects quite well (and for a combo) after a BF2 MB crossup. You land the J3 high at the opponents shoulders, and combo the rest. The opponent will be left on HKD state in about the same range as if you connected a D3.... noticeably closer than if you connected a 1121+3.


Ending a combo with DF3d and following with a simple J2 kills ALL wakeup backdashes. All of them. The only character who's backdash changes the timing of your J2 is Catwoman. But all you have to do is wait a couple frames before jumping in and doing the J2 slightly later than normal. Everybody else? J2 kills it. They're not backdashing out of it without eating a J2 and the subsequent combo.

Another thing that I've noticed, is this setup and the subsequent J2, takes a lot of the guesswork out of many character's wakeup attempts. J2 stuffs a lot of wakeups and you don't have to try to time a late DB2 or try a J3 or whatever..... Just J2 and cross them up and eat their wakeup. On some characters, the J2 becomes a safe jump. It safe jumps WoWo Upward Almathea Bash and Superman's Rising Grab. On other characters, (like Darkseid's wakeup Palm Blast or Aquaman's Trident Rush) their wakeup moves them forward past the J2 but still in range to get hit anyway.

I'll show some more vids tomorrow of it in action.

And as of now, I have no idea what to do vs delayed wakeup.

Yet.
 
Take$$$

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Tiger Wong said:
Ok.... so as many of us are aware @Take$$$ has got that good stuff with hard knockdown oki off of 1121+3 and the magic D3. But I gotta be honest.... some of this stuff to catch a lot of wakeup is quite tight. Especially backdashes like Superman's and Catwoman's.

Well there's another hard knockdown that I've been practicing using that works pretty well.

DF3d. Front Handspring Crazy Legs (the Cartwheel Sweep.)

I know what you're thinking.... that move is borderline trash. How are you even gonna connect that thing in this first place?

Well.... it just so happens that you can connect it off a D2. And a cross up j3, D2, DF3d connects quite well (and for a combo) after a BF2 MB crossup. You land the J3 high at the opponents shoulders, and combo the rest. The opponent will be left on HKD state in about the same range as if you connected a D3.... noticeably closer than if you connected a 1121+3.


Ending a combo with DF3d and following with a simple J2 kills ALL wakeup backdashes. All of them. The only character who's backdash changes the timing of your J2 is Catwoman. But all you have to do is wait a couple frames before jumping in and doing the J2 slightly later than normal. Everybody else? J2 kills it. They're not backdashing out of it without eating a J2 and the subsequent combo.

Another thing that I've noticed, is this setup and the subsequent J2, takes a lot of the guesswork out of many character's wakeup attempts. J2 stuffs a lot of wakeups and you don't have to try to time a late DB2 or try a J3 or whatever..... Just J2 and cross them up and eat their wakeup. On some characters, the J2 becomes a safe jump. It safe jumps WoWo Upward Almathea Bash and Superman's Rising Grab. On other characters, (like Darkseid's wakeup Palm Blast or Aquaman's Trident Rush) their wakeup moves them forward past the J2 but still in range to get hit anyway.

I'll show some more vids tomorrow of it in action.

And as of now, I have no idea what to do vs delayed wakeup.

Yet.
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Just happened to wake up for a second since I'm prob going back to sleep asap, but I also thought Superman was tight until I started getting it a lot more consistently because the trick is you just need to kill enough frames to avoid him getting the backdash both ways which is actually easier than I thought to get down(same issue with CW but hers is actually tight af). The thing is you don't need to hit like 99% of the cast on their actual wakeup attacks with the jump in attack, because you just end up jumping over them, so at worst you should have lvl 2 for a free punish(since it loops with my tech obv) or you get a free jump in attack mixup again, or if you REALLY mess up and they backdash you're usually at least +4 still so another mix,.

Also I forgot to update my thread like, last week, but I'd move Batman to 112 1+3 as the ender of choice and Flash to D3 ender. I'm going back to sleep so I'll do that later, as well as read the rest of your post then too lols. I did watch the video tho since its 7sec and thats a sick af idea that needs to be explored even further imo. The ONE problem with ending close like that is that if your goal is to use j2, they can almost always forward dash out of it because j2s weird hitbox is very specific spots, which is why I used J3 on like, everyone when I did the d3 ender video. Just something you should check if you haven't yet! It's an easy fix just changing to j3 so it keeps them looped until they learn to block if that is indeed the case here.
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
Tiger Wong said:
Ok.... so as many of us are aware @Take$$$ has got that good stuff with hard knockdown oki off of 1121+3 and the magic D3. But I gotta be honest.... some of this stuff to catch a lot of wakeup is quite tight. Especially backdashes like Superman's and Catwoman's.

Well there's another hard knockdown that I've been practicing using that works pretty well.

DF3d. Front Handspring Crazy Legs (the Cartwheel Sweep.)

I know what you're thinking.... that move is borderline trash. How are you even gonna connect that thing in this first place?

Well.... it just so happens that you can connect it off a D2. And a cross up j3, D2, DF3d connects quite well (and for a combo) after a BF2 MB crossup. You land the J3 high at the opponents shoulders, and combo the rest. The opponent will be left on HKD state in about the same range as if you connected a D3.... noticeably closer than if you connected a 1121+3.


Ending a combo with DF3d and following with a simple J2 kills ALL wakeup backdashes. All of them. The only character who's backdash changes the timing of your J2 is Catwoman. But all you have to do is wait a couple frames before jumping in and doing the J2 slightly later than normal. Everybody else? J2 kills it. They're not backdashing out of it without eating a J2 and the subsequent combo.

Another thing that I've noticed, is this setup and the subsequent J2, takes a lot of the guesswork out of many character's wakeup attempts. J2 stuffs a lot of wakeups and you don't have to try to time a late DB2 or try a J3 or whatever..... Just J2 and cross them up and eat their wakeup. On some characters, the J2 becomes a safe jump. It safe jumps WoWo Upward Almathea Bash and Superman's Rising Grab. On other characters, (like Darkseid's wakeup Palm Blast or Aquaman's Trident Rush) their wakeup moves them forward past the J2 but still in range to get hit anyway.

I'll show some more vids tomorrow of it in action.

And as of now, I have no idea what to do vs delayed wakeup.

Yet.
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Good find. I would like to also point at an earlier post of mine:

jokey77 said:
I have had some lab time today and I am quite content with the outcome. I am still not convinced that 112 1+3 is the way to go. However I have found quite a few other hard knockdowns that provide plenty of plus frames on hit. Besides these set-ups leave you at a great range to follow up with j2/j3 (= they catch Superman's backdash and happen to be cross-ups against opponent that just stand up right away):

i.) 11-db2 (mb), b3, j2, j1, d3.
ii.) 11-db2 (mb), b3, j2, d2-df3, 33-df3.
iii.) 11-db2 (mb), b3, j2, walk forward, d2-df3-d3.

All these setups provide pretty similar damage. However only some of them change sides, so if you like to have your opponent towards the corner (like I do), you might want to vary.

Besides a level 1 trait on an airborne opponent provides plenty of plusframes too. It can be tech-rolled though. I did:

iv.) Trait (level 3), dash, j2, 11~db2 (mb), b3, j2, j2, 11-trait.

I haven't tested how these setups work against wake-ups though. I am positive that they might be no worse than 112 1+3. However plenty of cartwheels (see setup no ii.) might mess with wake-up inputs.

---

Besides I suggest that you look up my new combo in the other thread. I guess, most of you don't even know that you can do bf2 (mb) and hold forward to do a cross-up. I was surprised myself when this happened to me by accident. This leads to optimized damage and many new mix-up options, especially with j3 (that hits behind Black Canary).

So this is a lot of new stuff and I am excited where we go from here... :)
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However I am not doing this because I want to be the "already known-guy", but to encourage fellow BC-players to further improve our setups.

I do agree that 112 1+3 works great on plenty of characters. However against some heroes said string doesn't feel like an actual vortex. After 112 1+3 J3 works better than J2, but I have a hard time to reliably do a combo after j3, because the opponent is floating in different ways.
 
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Take$$$

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
jokey77 said:
Good find. I would like to also point at an earlier post of mine:



However I am not doing this because I want to be the "already known-guy", but to encourage fellow BC-players to further improve our setups.

I do agree that 112 1+3 works great on plenty of characters. However against some heroes said string doesn't feel like an actual vortex. After 112 1+3 J3 works better than J2, but I have a hard time to reliably do a combo after j3, because the opponent is floating in different ways.
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Oh yeah, did you watch the 2nd part? You just do d3 ender on that one, and I'm pretty sure I nailed the proper heights you need to keep the at every time so people could get a consistent idea of the lowest and highest they can be on your way down from the 2nd jump in.

J3 hit confirming just takes practice and grinding time. It's still like 10x easier than hit confirming SQ D'Vorah b1 wasp cancels 100% of the time, I just haven't been able to put as much practice into the game as I'd like.

But I think I've had about 2 days of breakthroughs in a row for my personal rl stuff, soooo hopefully I can keep a consistent state of being so I can get back to playing Inj2 and contribute to everyones great ideas more as well as expand on tech I still haven't been able to fully test & release yet.
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
@Take$$$

hope your private stuff will turn out fine!

I remember you coming up with something else that we all might want to look into a little further: catching people that do an air escape mid combo. If this was less of an issue, I wouldn't mind playing more patiently while my opponent is building meter.

I'll see what I can find!
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
jokey77 said:
Good find. I would like to also point at an earlier post of mine:



However I am not doing this because I want to be the "already known-guy", but to encourage fellow BC-players to further improve our setups.

I do agree that 112 1+3 works great on plenty of characters. However against some heroes said string doesn't feel like an actual vortex. After 112 1+3 J3 works better than J2, but I have a hard time to reliably do a combo after j3, because the opponent is floating in different ways.
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What thread are you referring to? Id like to see the new combo you're talking about.
 
Take$$$

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
jokey77 said:
@Take$$$

hope your private stuff will turn out fine!

I remember you coming up with something else that we all might want to look into a little further: catching people that do an air escape mid combo. If this was less of an issue, I wouldn't mind playing more patiently while my opponent is building meter.

I'll see what I can find!
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Thanks! Looking forward to what you find. Anything you happen to notice keep me updated, even PM me if it's easier, and maybe we can work on it together!
 
Tiger Wong

Tiger Wong

Kombatant
Ok so based on the vid I showed last night, here was my thought process......

When doing @Take$$$ 1121+3 ending, Superman becomes a bit of a pain. His backdash gets on my nerves. And when I try to keep him down, well..... it isn't pretty......

[WARNING! this video is of me failing at connecting a backdashing superman for 25 secs.]


Anyway, it's not until I take a tiny step forward, and do the J2 at a specific time that it connects. Basically, the timing is pretty tight.

And you have to change it to J3 in anticipation of Superman's rising grab because the J2 just gets eaten up. But if Superman doesn't do the rising grab and backdashes or blocks, the J3 whiffs because you also have to do the J3 early to make the rising grab whiff.

So at first I tried to make a combo ending in 113 because I mean...... that's 35 frames of hit advantage. But I can't find anything to connect that 113 off of other than a restand. So I messed around with DF3d last night and came up with the combo I posted a few posts back.

Now, I wanted to look at Superman and his stupid backdash and rising grab wakeups. Well like I said last night, You're not backdashing out this setup......


Which brings me to that rising grab.....


Notice..... the timing for the J2 is identical vs backdash or rising grab. And if they do something they get blown up (lol at freeze breath and you safe jump the Flying Punch) or have to block the crossup and your incoming mixup. Superman CAN'T ESCAPE (well..... unless he late rises maybe. I still have to test vs delay wakeup). He's stuck in a little corner that we created for him in the middle of the screen. (again, thanks to @Take$$$ for the idea of making the midscreen a corner) The difference between crossup J3->D2->DF3d and 1121+3 vs Superman is that you as Black Canary don't have to guess his wakeup with very specific J2/J3 timing. The ending has less frames of advantage than ending a combo with D3, True. But this combo will hit harder than anything that ends in D3
 
Derocus

Derocus

'The Cage Mage'
Tiger Wong said:
Ok so based on the vid I showed last night, here was my thought process......

When doing @Take$$$ 1121+3 ending, Superman becomes a bit of a pain. His backdash gets on my nerves. And when I try to keep him down, well..... it isn't pretty......

[WARNING! this video is of me failing at connecting a backdashing superman for 25 secs.]


Anyway, it's not until I take a tiny step forward, and do the J2 at a specific time that it connects. Basically, the timing is pretty tight.

And you have to change it to J3 in anticipation of Superman's rising grab because the J2 just gets eaten up. But if Superman doesn't do the rising grab and backdashes or blocks, the J3 whiffs because you also have to do the J3 early to make the rising grab whiff.

So at first I tried to make a combo ending in 113 because I mean...... that's 35 frames of hit advantage. But I can't find anything to connect that 113 off of other than a restand. So I messed around with DF3d last night and came up with the combo I posted a few posts back.

Now, I wanted to look at Superman and his stupid backdash and rising grab wakeups. Well like I said last night, You're not backdashing out this setup......


Which brings me to that rising grab.....


Notice..... the timing for the J2 is identical vs backdash or rising grab. And if they do something they get blown up (lol at freeze breath and you safe jump the Flying Punch) or have to block the crossup and your incoming mixup. Superman CAN'T ESCAPE (well..... unless he late rises maybe. I still have to test vs delay wakeup). He's stuck in a little corner that we created for him in the middle of the screen. (again, thanks to @Take$$$ for the idea of making the midscreen a corner) The difference between crossup J3->D2->DF3d and 1121+3 vs Superman is that you as Black Canary don't have to guess his wakeup with very specific J2/J3 timing. The ending has less frames of advantage than ending a combo with D3, True. But this combo will hit harder than anything that ends in D3
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My man, this belongs in the tech thread. Good shit tho :cool:

On a less serious note, I've never felt a greater feeling that this right here:

MMmm yis
 
Tiger Wong

Tiger Wong

Kombatant
Take$$$ said:
..... while I think her neutral has the potential to be among the best in the game with or without lvl 2/3, it's just impossible to imagine it happening in tournament consistently(at least with the way I envision her optimized neutral) because you have to be soooooooo on point 24/7 every single second of every game its so hard urghhhhh.)
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You're talking about the Instant Air Canary Drop, aren't you?

I suck at it but I'm probably not doing it right. I don't have a stick. Just the normal PS4 pad. I can't tiger knee the motion because Canary Drop is a tatsu motion as opposed to a hadoken. How are you doing it?
 
N

NumeroGaijin

Noob
Tiger Wong said:
You're talking about the Instant Air Canary Drop, aren't you?

I suck at it but I'm probably not doing it right. I don't have a stick. Just the normal PS4 pad. I can't tiger knee the motion because Canary Drop is a tatsu motion as opposed to a hadoken. How are you doing it?
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But a tastu motion is nothing but a hadoken motion in reverse. If you can do a tiger knee on both sides....you can do a tastu on both sides.
 
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