Batman matchup chart Injustice 2

[Notez4]

If joker has a health lead, the zoning war can favor him IF he is careful.

Just want to point out that that is the exact definition of winning the zoning war

 

[Tweedy]

What's wrong with #4-7? Aquaman and Black Adam for sure number #1 and #2, then Deadshot or Catwoman most likely #3

Most of TYM still isn't sold on Catwoman because she's "nerfed" from Injustice 1. It'll probably be middle of august before you can talk about characters like batman and superman being worse than catwoman.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I feel like Red Hood kind of bops Batman. He wins in zoning, forcing Batman to come in. Up close he out spaces Batman. He can actually consistently Anti-Air J2. He can punish B23 with Reversal DF3 which is freaking huge. Batman can't punish Red Hood's overhead off of trait. Red Hood basically creates a ton of awkward situations for Batman at every point on the screen while also doing his already crazy Red Hood stuff.

 

[Vengeance135]

Just want to point out that that is the exact definition of winning the zoning war

Joker has to put way more thought into his zone game vs batmans. Jokers only viable zone tool: gun. Batmans, batarang, anti air batarangs and trait. Joker can outzone batman IF and key word there, "IF" he makes the right reads and plays super careful. Batman doesn't have to put nearly as much thought into his zoning vs joker when he has health lead compared to joker. In other words, batmans zoning is better.

 

[Vengeance135]

Last time we saw that MU in tournament play it was a 3-0 for Joker. Granted that Joker player happened to be Sonicfox it still remains to be seen if that MU is as bad as it might look on paper for Joker.

Lol I love how forever king liked this post after he clearly stated he didn't know the MU.

How can you sit there and form an opinion of a MU in 3 games when the guy that lost openly admitted he didn't know the MU. You don't know the MU, you don't know how to counter. You don't know how to counter, you get eaten alive by unfamiliarity. That can happen with any character. Please don't comment when you clearly know nothing about joker.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Not to mention j2 can't be reliably anti aired by fate (actually more of a universal problem with batman). His ability to low profile our normal projectile 90% of the time, combined with his bat trait, reduces our zoning effectiveness and prevents normal projectile traps from working on batman. Also cross up j2 is an easy reliable answer to our wakeup and he can punish glyph of Osiris with bats :/

The only thing I see batman really having to deal with is orb or orb freeze me even still he can just call bats and crouch under our projectile until the orb goes away.

J2 isn't an issue since you can just air to air him with j1/j2 or MB B3/F3. If he has bats out then I just push block him away.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Lol I love how forever king liked this post after he clearly stated he didn't know the MU.

How can you sit there and form an opinion of a MU in 3 games when the guy that lost openly admitted he didn't know the MU. You don't know the MU, you don't know how to counter. You don't know how to counter, you get eaten alive by unfamiliarity. That can happen with any character. Please don't comment when you clearly know nothing about joker.

I said it remains to be seen what the actual MU is like. Just cuz you get washed by every online Batman doesn't mean it's 8-2 or whatever.

From what I've seen Joker can use teeth to nullify Batman's neutral approach, D2 has a huge hitbox to help against Batman's j2.

 

[Jugghead]

Him getting mauled in the corner is also a bill imo. He still has a great j2 and he has wakeup slide that the opponents have to at least respect. He also has parry. That's not to mention universal options like the roll or MB B3 F3. I don't think he fairs any worse in the corner than most characters, and that's without trait. He rarely doesn't have at least 1 bat and if he does most corner pressure isn't that scary.

I don't disagree with this, but wake-up slide and parry are extremely unsafe. You do have to respect them, but Batman has all the risk. Universal options aren't really worth mentioning when discussing things character specific. If you're getting mauled in the corner, you're not going to be able to call trait. Sometimes YOLO is the right option. You need to take some calculated risk and have anticipation in this game. Just because ForeverKing got mauled in the corner one game doesn't mean all hope is lost for the rest of us Batman players.

I can't see Batman being outside of the top 5 with proper trait management.

Completely agree. I don't think he's top 2, but I have a hard time naming 3 more characters better than him.

 

[RNLDRGN]

You asked if there's a substantial number of characters that don't get demolished in the corner and my answer is UHH YES lol and I gave you reasons as to why that is and Batman has neither of the things I mentioned. I mentioned up batarang as his "wakeup", cuz that's actually more likely to work than wakeup slide.

And just because other characters in every fighter get mauled in the corner doesn't help your argument literally at all. I'd love to see you pick up Batman and see what you do when you're getting pressured to death in the corner. By that logic no character has a weakness I guess cuz other characters have that weakness.

And it's not new to me at all. I played the first game and I am being realistic. I think you're actually the one that's unrealistic

Holy shit dude I didn't realize you had such an emotional attachment to downplaying Batman.

I'm sorry I brought it up dude. I'll keep my opinion to myself next time so you don't have to hear anything you disagree with.

 

[Vengeance135]

I said it remains to be seen what the actual MU is like. Just cuz you get washed by every online Batman doesn't mean it's 8-2 or whatever.

From what I've seen Joker can use teeth to nullify Batman's neutral approach, D2 has a huge hitbox to help against Batman's j2.

I actually don't lol I do pretty well against batman. I have to try hard yes but that's the nature of using a low tier character. Again you are commenting on a character you clearly know nothing about. Jokers d2 has excellent range, like I said earlier, however it is very unsafe AND is slow. Meaning joker has to make a read if trying to anti-air batman's j2. You can't just d2 his j2 on reaction. Batman's jump arc is too fast and short with his j2's hitbox being so active, it often stuffs jokers d2 if you try to react to it. You're better off just blocking the jump in 80% of the time.

And jokers teeth's start up time is punishable by bats from mid screen and the block stun on teeth doesn't compliment any of jokers normals outside of b1or b2, meaning if they block and pushblock, jokers chance at pressure is over and he's back where he suffers... at neutral, while batmans trait, which he gets in seconds completely allow him to overwhelm and ignore jokers neutral.

When the player actually knows the MU, getting wins with joker is very difficult due to everything he lacks.

I don't understand why you feel the need to comment on a character you clearly know nothing about as I can see your knowledge of joker is severely lacking, so please don't comment on a character you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Holy shit dude I didn't realize you had such an emotional attachment to downplaying Batman.

I'm sorry I brought it up dude. I'll keep my opinion to myself next time so you don't have to hear anything you disagree with.

Why do you keep saying random things that literally don't contribute to the conversation? There's no emotional attachment and there's no downplay. You literally said something, I counter argued that, and you never counter argued that. Ever again. Like literally this post and your last are just. Nothing. You're just talking. You STILL haven't told me how I'm wrong

 

[Savage8-8]

I actually don't lol I do pretty well against batman. I have to try hard yes but that's the nature of using a low tier character. Again you are commenting on a character you clearly know nothing about. Jokers d2 has excellent range, like I said earlier, however it is very unsafe AND is slow. Meaning joker has to make a read if trying to anti-air batman's j2. You can't just d2 his j2 on reaction. Batman's jump arc is too fast and short with his j2's hitbox being so active, it often stuffs jokers d2 if you try to react to it. You're better off just blocking the jump in 80% of the time.

And jokers teeth's start up time is punishable by bats from mid screen and the block stun on teeth doesn't compliment any of jokers normals outside of b1or b2, meaning if they block and pushblock, jokers chance at pressure is over and he's back where he suffers... at neutral, while batmans trait, which he gets in seconds completely allow him to overwhelm and ignore jokers neutral.

When the player actually knows the MU, getting wins with joker is very difficult due to everything he lacks.

I don't understand why you feel the need to comment on a character you clearly know nothing about as I can see your knowledge of joker is severely lacking, so please don't comment on a character you know absolutely nothing about.

Joker can out zone batman in this game. The only way batman can get in is trait. But once batman gets in joker is fucked lol. Batman has better normals. Everyone likes to talk about joker's D2 but he had this in the last game and its very punishable without a cancel. He has negative and unsafe normals but people i guess just dont know his frame data. Once they do it is VERY easy to counter joker.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Joker can out zone batman in this game. The only way batman can get in is trait. But once batman gets in joker is fucked lol. Batman has better normals. Everyone likes to talk about joker's D2 but he had this in the last game and its very punishable without a cancel. He has negative and unsafe normals but people i guess just dont know his frame data. Once they do it is VERY easy to counter joker.

I have a legit question. Why are you guys even bringing up Jokers D2 being negative? Everyone's D2 is negative and D2's aren't meant to be used on block anyways. They're meant to be used as antiairs. Just seems like a useless point to bring up

 

[Savage8-8]

I have a legit question. Why are you guys even bringing up Jokers D2 being negative? Everyone's D2 is negative and D2's aren't meant to be used on block anyways. They're meant to be used as antiairs. Just seems like a useless point to bring up

Bc almost everyone who doesn't play joker when trying to rate him ALWAYS say his D2 is really good. Its always a go to for people who argue that joker has a great neutral. But your right its a bad habbit lol. but for the record i dont want it to be plus. I dont even care if its safe. Just need it to be fast enough so i can anti-air a jump in on reaction

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Bc almost everyone who doesn't play joker when trying to rate him ALWAYS say his D2 is really good. Its always a go to for people who argue that joker has a great neutral. But your right its a bad habbit lol. but for the record i dont want it to be plus. I dont even care if its safe. Just need it to be fast enough so i can anti-air a jump in on reaction

What's the startup?

 

[Savage8-8]

What's the startup?

I wanna say 15F. Not sure have to check

 

[TheGangstaFace]

I wanna say 15F. Not sure have to check

Jesus. Think I threw up in my mouth a little

 

[Vengeance135]

Joker can out zone batman in this game. The only way batman can get in is trait. But once batman gets in joker is fucked lol. Batman has better normals. Everyone likes to talk about joker's D2 but he had this in the last game and its very punishable without a cancel. He has negative and unsafe normals but people i guess just dont know his frame data. Once they do it is VERY easy to counter joker.

Great comment! Like I said, joker can do it but his tools are very limited. When zoning batman out you have to make great reads and have a strong mind game vs the batman player. Batman can still activate bats between gunshots and that is something that needs to be taken into consideration due to the overall effectiveness of them in the MU. Bats can punish gunshot from midscreen. I never said joker can't out zone batman, I stated batman can do it better due to his plethora of tools and their overall effectiveness.

I agree, what gets me salty is that people comment on joker but don't know hardly anything about him.

I have a legit question. Why are you guys even bringing up Jokers D2 being negative? Everyone's D2 is negative and D2's aren't meant to be used on block anyways. They're meant to be used as antiairs. Just seems like a useless point to bring up

You are right about D2's, however jokers D2 is different then most. Jokers d2 has excellent range however, the start up is really slow making it an anti-air that can be only used for jumps on read. More then half the cast have a reliable anti-air with a fast start up, meaning they can instantly react to a jump in without any penalty.

Due the nature of jokers hitbox when blocking his D2, he is wide open for a FULL combo punish by any character, and with a small cancel window on his D2, you are forced to commit to a D2 cancel if you are unsure of the read you made.

Example: you know a character is going to jump, depending on their jump arc you could possibly anti-air them, however, you throw it out too soon and you're eating a full combo or at least a decent punish for whiffing, you throw it out too late and their jump in will stuff your D2 and you're eating a full combo.

D2 is used in Jokers neutral due to the fact that it has range and joker lacks a neutral, but you have to cancel afterwards otherwise you're going to get blown up.

Example:

A character is moving in, they are in D2 range. You can throw out D2 and cancel into crowbar (best choice but easily reactable) and be safe but it's negative so joker has to take the follow up of the other character.

You can d2 canister (not a good choice for people that know the MU) because they can neutral jump the can and full combo punish joker.

D2 gun backdash, decent choice, to save yourself from immediately getting punished, but it puts joker back in a neutral state where he suffers or a character with an advancing string can blow that up on reaction

D2 teeth can be blown up by advancing strings or specials and most armored moves.

Essentially nothing is safe or truly effective when your opponent knows the Joker MU as all these moves can be countered easily or reacted and this is jokers most effective tool in neutral.

 

[ForeverKing]

Great comment! Like I said, joker can do it but his tools are very limited. When zoning batman out you have to make great reads and have a strong mind game vs the batman player. Batman can still activate bats between gunshots and that is something that needs to be taken into consideration due to the overall effectiveness of them in the MU. Bats can punish gunshot from midscreen. I never said joker can't out zone batman, I stated batman can do it better due to his plethora of tools and their overall effectiveness.

I agree, what gets me salty is that people comment on joker but don't know hardly anything about him.




You are right about D2's, however jokers D2 is different then most. Jokers d2 has excellent range however, the start up is really slow making it an anti-air that can be only used for jumps on read. More then half the cast have a reliable anti-air with a fast start up, meaning they can instantly react to a jump in without any penalty.

Due the nature of jokers hitbox when blocking his D2, he is wide open for a FULL combo punish by any character, and with a small cancel window on his D2, you are forced to commit to a D2 cancel if you are unsure of the read you made.

Example: you know a character is going to jump, depending on their jump arc you could possibly anti-air them, however, you throw it out too soon and you're eating a full combo or at least a decent punish for whiffing, you throw it out too late and their jump in will stuff your D2 and you're eating a full combo.

D2 is used in Jokers neutral due to the fact that it has range and joker lacks a neutral, but you have to cancel afterwards otherwise you're going to get blown up.

Example:

A character is moving in, they are in D2 range. You can throw out D2 and cancel into crowbar (best choice but easily reactable) and be safe but it's negative so joker has to take the follow up of the other character.

You can d2 canister (not a good choice for people that know the MU) because they can neutral jump the can and full combo punish joker.

D2 gun backdash, decent choice, to save yourself from immediately getting punished, but it puts joker back in a neutral state where he suffers or a character with an advancing string can blow that up on reaction

D2 teeth can be blown up by advancing strings or specials and most armored moves.

Essentially nothing is safe or truly effective when your opponent knows the Joker MU as all these moves can be countered easily or reacted and this is jokers most effective tool in neutral.

Joker does not have to make great reads to win the zoning war to be honest. From full screen, Batman gets destroyed in the zoning. You don't need to know the match up to understand this. Joker's DF1 has better recovery than Batman's batarangs and way faster travel speed across the screen. So if both characters sit full screen and neither character is allowed to approach the other, the only thing either character is allowed to do projectiles, Joker wins hands down. He can be happy-go-lucky with his gunshot and it doesn't matter, he will still be able to duck Batman's batarangs in time by the time they get close.

Yes I understand that if Batman approaches and closes the gap, trait bats come in to play and it gets more risky for Joker to be happy-go-lucky with his DF1.

But in the "zoning war" we aren't taking into account approaching and getting close to each other, zoning war refers to both characters standing full-screen or 3/4ths screen and using nothing but projectiles. So a zoning war in that sense, I confidently say that Joker wins without a doubt vs Batman

 

[Tweedy]

Joker's d2 is definitely better than half the cast's. A lot of the faster d2s have way too small of a hitbox to anti air the better jump ins, whether it's on reaction or not.

It's 12 frames btw.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Honestly, flash is probably 5-5 even though I hate admitting it lol

I love how I can land b23 4 etc when a flash tries to running man stance dash in.

 

[Vengeance135]

Joker does not have to make great reads to win the zoning war to be honest. From full screen, Batman gets destroyed in the zoning. You don't need to know the match up to understand this. Joker's DF1 has better recovery than Batman's batarangs and way faster travel speed across the screen. So if both characters sit full screen and neither character is allowed to approach the other, the only thing either character is allowed to do projectiles, Joker wins hands down. He can be happy-go-lucky with his gunshot and it doesn't matter, he will still be able to duck Batman's batarangs in time by the time they get close.

Yes I understand that if Batman approaches and closes the gap, trait bats come in to play and it gets more risky for Joker to be happy-go-lucky with his DF1.

But in the "zoning war" we aren't taking into account approaching and getting close to each other, zoning war refers to both characters standing full-screen or 3/4ths screen and using nothing but projectiles. So a zoning war in that sense, I confidently say that Joker wins without a doubt vs Batman

I see, so in a match, as soon as it starts, both players went full screen with their health bars completely untouched and stayed at full screen and did nothing but chucked gunshot and batarangs, joker would win? I agree.

Would that sensibly happen in a match? No. After jokers gunshot you can dash forward, after another gunshot, another dash forward and where are You? Midrange where bats can be activated after a single gunshot and then joker can't just be happy-go-lucky anymore. He has to read one of the many ways batman can get in.

If joker was rushing batman down on a health deficit. Batarangs that can be mb at any time, trait catching forward dashes meaning you have to carefully move forward. Do not jump, because once your in jumping range batman can either anti-air batarang, instant j1 jokers any forward advancing jump attacks or use his bats to begin pressure.

Again I say, I understand you stated you don't really have MU experience but once/if you do, you will see the difference in their zoning.

 

[Vengeance135]

Joker's d2 is definitely better than half the cast's. A lot of the faster d2s have way too small of a hitbox to anti air the better jump ins, whether it's on reaction or not.

It's 12 frames btw.

Okay I just explained this and you may have overlooked it so I copied and pasted it for you.

You are right about D2's, however jokers D2 is different then most. Jokers d2 has excellent range however, the start up is really slow making it an anti-air that can be only used for jumps on read. More then half the cast have a reliable anti-air with a fast start up, meaning they can instantly react to a jump in without any penalty.

Due the nature of jokers hitbox when blocking his D2, he is wide open for a FULL combo punish by any character, and with a small cancel window on his D2, you are forced to commit to a D2 cancel if you are unsure of the read you made.

Example: you know a character is going to jump, depending on their jump arc you could possibly anti-air them, however, you throw it out too soon and you're eating a full combo or at least a decent punish for whiffing, you throw it out too late and their jump in will stuff your D2 and you're eating a full combo.

D2 is used in Jokers neutral due to the fact that it has range and joker lacks a neutral, but you have to cancel afterwards otherwise you're going to get blown up.

Example:

A character is moving in, they are in D2 range. You can throw out D2 and cancel into crowbar (best choice but easily reactable) and be safe but it's negative so joker has to take the follow up of the other character.

You can d2 canister (not a good choice for people that know the MU) because they can neutral jump the can and full combo punish joker.

D2 gun backdash, decent choice, to save yourself from immediately getting punished, but it puts joker back in a neutral state where he suffers or a character with an advancing string can blow that up on reaction

D2 teeth can be blown up by advancing strings or specials and most armored moves.

Essentially nothing is safe or truly effective when your opponent knows the Joker MU as all these moves can be countered easily or reacted and this is jokers most effective tool in neutral.

 

[Savage8-8]

Jesus. Think I threw up in my mouth a little

Its 12F. Not as bad but still a little slow.

EDIT: My bad didn't see the post above

 

[Icy Everything]

Where did I say that I thought you said that he wasn't top 5

Also you usually have to sacrifice damage to get the better knockdowns and then you would still have the option of slide, parry, or waiting for the neutral jump. He has a better wakeup than most of the cast still.

To be fair, Batmans wakeup game is gimmicky at if you know how to know him. He gets away with upbats, but still it's a mindgame. He either gets slide, or he doesnt. Some character could no his oki for free, like CW, and some can just straight duck it, avoiding the Upbats. But, his oki mind game can be annoying.