Basically what Shao Kahn is reduced to doing since his strings are bad.

[Evil Canadian]

Lol i dont want to hear it. You guys believe pro players when they fit your point of view. Sonicfox is the best and gave valid reasons for everyone. In sub zeros case for us mortals who cant react to a 19 frame overhead hes Stier. But he said and proved he can react to his mixes, making him B tier.

Except for the fact the reasons he gave are not "the best" or valid. One of Fox's talking points on why Shao is "broken" is his buff that takes over 160 frames to complete. Get the fanboy out of your system.

Sonic foxes example of beating the SZ overhead too is bunk, in training mode you can exactly see which mix is coming next because its displayed clear as day in the top and middle of the screen. I can block a single frame overhead low mix too if I know exactly whats coming. 19f which is hard enough already -4f of input delay inherent to the game system - another usual 1f due to peoples tvs/monitors makes it a lot harder than 19 actual frames to block.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

It seems to me you are very biased. What valid reasons did he give that put SK in A tier? Since you support the fact that SK is A tier, plz tell us what are the pros of SK that the rest of the cast does not have?

You can call it bias hes the only character ive been playing since the game came out. He is A tier because he has a 10 frame mid that can give you 20% unbreakawayable damage on hit.
Amazing corner carry
Good damage
Great AA and Best D2 in the game
Great range on shorthop
Atleast 40% or higher on universal KB
Thats why I feel hes A tier which isnt that high in this game considering there are like 8 S tier characers.

His biggest issues are with his variation and other KBs

 

[Evil Canadian]

You can call it bias hes the only character ive been playing since the game came out. He is A tier because he has a 10 frame mid that can give you 20% unbreakawayable damage on hit.

10f mid that has a very large, easily flawless blocked full punish gap into it yes, for only 20%.

• corner carry not sufficient enough compared to people with actual good corner carry
• servicable damage. He normally can't even break 300 midscreen for a bar, unlike half the cast.
• does have good aa, has one of the better uppercuts but not the best(jade)
• good shorthop, not great though(like raiden)
• Pretty much every character gets 40% off KB's

I have put a lot more time into shao kahn than the 20 minutes sonic fox has. I have put a lot more time into say, Frost than sonic fox has. Seeing his opinion on her was also laughable.

Dudes good, one of the best of all time. His opinions are often shit. If he thinks a character is actually good he will play it, otherwise he spends 20 mins on them and moves on and calls everything "broken".

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

Except for the fact the reasons he gave are not "the best" or valid. One of Fox's talking points on why Shao is "broken" is his buff that takes over 160 frames to complete. Get the fanboy out of your system.

Sonic foxes example of beating the SZ overhead too is bunk, in training mode you can exactly see which mix is coming next because its displayed clear as day in the top and middle of the screen. I can block a single frame overhead low mix too if I know exactly whats coming. 19f which is hard enough already -4f of input delay inherent to the game system - another usual 1f due to peoples tvs/monitors makes it a lot harder than 19 actual frames to block.

He proved it in tournament, not practice mode lol but its fine your entittled to your oppinion. Its still early if things come up feel free tell me I was wrong . But dont sit here and tell me to ride the SK is trash bandwagon

 

[Evil Canadian]

He proved it in tournament, not practice mode lol but its fine your entittled to your oppinion. Its still early if things come up feel free tell me I was wrong . But dont sit here and tell me to ride the SK is trash bandwagon

He didn't prove anything in a tournament. His fundamentals are good and can make bad characters look good. Know when to form your own opinions and do the research. I have done the legwork, maybe you should too instead of regurgitating someone elses (wrong)opinion.

Shao Kahn isn't the worst, he's certainly better off than Kotal or Dvorah, but that's about it.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

10f mid that has a very large, easily flawless blocked full punish gap into it yes, for only 20%.

• corner carry not sufficient enough compared to people with actual good corner carry
• servicable damage. He normally can't even break 300 midscreen for a bar, unlike half the cast.
• does have good aa, has one of the better uppercuts but not the best(jade)
• good shorthop, not great though(like raiden)
• Pretty much every character gets 40% off KB's

I have put a lot more time into shao kahn than the 20 minutes sonic fox has. I have put a lot more time into say, Frost than sonic fox has. Seeing his opinion on her was also laughable.

Dudes good, one of the best of all time. His opinions are often shit. If he thinks a character is actually good he will play it, otherwise he spends 20 mins on them and moves on and calls everything "broken".

Did you just say SK cant get over 300 midscreen for a bar????! Corner carry not sufficient?!! Your trolling please tell me your trolling

 

[Evil Canadian]

Did you just say SK cant get over 300 midscreen for a bar????! Corner carry not sufficient?!! Your trolling please tell me your trolling

You need to see what a character with good corner carry actually looks like if you think Shao's is best in class. His usual starters (f21, 14) will lead to about 290~ midscreen. I guess if you are the kind of person who counts jumpins then yes he can get a bit over 300.

 

[Metzos]

You can call it bias hes the only character ive been playing since the game came out. He is A tier because he has a 10 frame mid that can give you 20% unbreakawayable damage on hit.
Amazing corner carry
Good damage
Great AA and Best D2 in the game
Great range on shorthop
Atleast 40% or higher on universal KB
Thats why I feel hes A tier which isnt that high in this game considering there are like 8 S tier characers.

His biggest issues are with his variation and other KBs

Pretty much everyone who is a rush down character or whiff punisher, has amazing corner carry.

He does have good damage i agree, but its riskier to deal it than the majority of the cast.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Thats what everyone is getting after d2's pretty much.

By your logic then everyone is A tier.

Now, tell me his cons.

You need to see what a character with good corner carry actually looks like if you think Shao's is best in class. His usual starters (f21, 14) will lead to about 290~ midscreen. I guess if you are the kind of person who counts jumpins then yes he can get a bit over 300.

Actually he does have 300's midscreen without a jump in. After amp shoulder, you do delayed j2 into s4xxannihilation. Really easy once you get the timing right.

 

[Metzos]

Yes Scorpions is obviously less - on block but SK works the same way.
No matter how you look at it you have to respect a 10 frame mid. The second hit in the string , the big gap forces you to sit and wait to see if its coming out.
If you disrespect your going to get blown up by it . Your make it sound like SK is completely giving up his turn it isnt that simple.

No, it does not work the same way because Scorpion's f3 is -2f on block and SK's f3 is -8f on block. Its pure math.

I m not saying its not there, i m saying its a very risky gimmick and thats why it cant be used consistently, unlike Scorpion's.

 

[Invincible Salads]

F34 is one of his best staggers leads to another for 3 B3 Dash grab or sweep mix up

it'd be better if his f3 was less negative. also his f34 needs to be special cancellable as well.

 

[Olcadan13]

the problem with shao isn't that he is bad buttons, everyone knows he has good buttons jfc
the problem with shao is that he has DEAD MOVES. DEAD VARIATIONS.

UP HAMMER IS USELESS
DARK PRIEST IS USELESS
LOW HAMMER IS SOMEHOW WORSE THAN UP HAMMER
RIDICULE IS LITERALLY A JOKE

 

[NeroOps]

• Hammer Lunge isn't safe on block unless its at max range even then its probably possible to punish by specific moves. It doesn't have armor which means he can be hit out the air. It also can be whiffed by ducking opponent if their hurtbox is small while in the corner which puts you in the corner instead.
• F3,4, 1+3 string sucks because you can't cancel the 4 into a special move but it's also bugged because parries don't work on the F3. By the way the whole string is also unsafe.
• His throwing spear can be ducked if you move close enough even though its a mid which is also unsafe.
• Priest summon is unsafe unless you trade hits with specific projectiles even then thats a gamble. By the way you have to reach and hit confirm an opponent before the buff is gone.
• All his standing normal's start as highs.
• F4 has a gap when he runs at you but is +6 on block.
• Up Wrath Hammer has a gap on block. You can trade with a d2, dash back then punish, use a forward advancing special thats fast enough to push opponent back, flawless block when the hammer drops, and stand block the hammer since its -1 then go for d1. The choice is your's to not sit and be a potato. It also has a bug that raises the camera.
• Fatal blow startup is slow and gets punished by every other FB in the game.
• F2 is a high that can be ducked and d2 easily.
• 44 string starts as a high which can be a gap itself and has a gap when he spins before the second 4 hits which is a mid and is +6 on block.

He damn sure isn't A tier!

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

There is no mix up after a f3 on block man. Why? Because the second hit of f3 leads to a low, so using sweep after f3 is out of the question. He has a gimmick after a blocked f3, which is either using throw or down poke. Do you know how -f on block f3 is? -8f. There is no stagger there. If it was -2 or 3f on block, then yes it would be really good.

The only mix up is using throws, down pokes or a sweep, after a f34 on hit.

Sorry a lot of the stuff got autocorrected what I meant to say was F3 is a good check but if they're expecting it I go for a grab or instant overhead and for those are not using the instant overhead you are limiting your options

 

[DubiousShenron]

As I predicted.. NRS has a tendency to make the first DLC a low tier trash... case examples: Darkseid, Goro, And now Shao Kahn. Your only hope is that he gets ridiculed buffed like Goro. Hahaha.

Never forget the main man, Lobo

 

[JamesKhan2000]

Maybe some of you are mad that Sonic took your excuses away....

 

[Kroaken]

I would have liked to watch him make the list with more people that would refute or at least argue some of the points. Steve barely said anything (that I could hear?). And he glossed over a lot. Paraphrased: Kotal is broke cuz command grab city. Wut?

 

[Rude]

This is Exactly my point. People think he's decent but don't realize just how punishable he is on a majority of the things he can do. The only way you can play safe is by ignoring 80% of his movelist in order to do good.

If this Sub-Zero actually knew what he was doing against this Shao Kahn the chances of him winning are stupidly high.

And people are gonna try to act like a team spooky tournament is filled with some legit ass people when they are out here in grand finals doing suboptimal, random ass shit in order to get wins.

So what are your tourney results then?

 

[JamesKhan2000]

I would have liked to watch him make the list with more people that would refute or at least argue some of the points. Steve barely said anything (that I could hear?). And he glossed over a lot. Paraphrased: Kotal is broke cuz command grab city. Wut?

But see that the problem. Who has the accomplishments that Sonic has to refute his insight?

 

[Kroaken]

But see that the problem. Who has the accomplishments that Sonic has to refute his insight?

Well, the idea isn't to prove him wrong, really, but to force him to go into a little more depth as to why he believes what he does.

 

[Cashual]

Where exactly they said he is viable in the quotes you posted? They said he is UNDERRATED. They said he has god tier movement, which we have also said.

They said he has solid buttons.

He does, besides f2 which for a high hitting move is slow af. We said that he is UNSAFE af, not that he does not have solid buttons. The startups, besides f2, of his buttons are solid.

The block adv of his strings? Trash compared to the rest of the cast. Plz tell me of another character with so many COMBO PUNISHABLE full strings.

The gaps in almost all of his strings? Trash compared to the rest of the cast. Please tell me of another character with so many gaps.

As for the 1hit "Luke SKywalker" hit confirming, unless i see it done consistently in a tournament environment, which nerves can get the best of you, i m still not sold. F3 has good special cancel adv yes, but lets be real here plz. And even then, please answer me this:

Why in the blue hell SK is the ONLY one in the entire cast who has to commit into a one hit confirm cancel to a -20f on block special to get his dmg going?

Jacqui has a 9f mid combo starter. Why its not the same with her?

Noob has a 9f mid combo starter. Why its not the same with him?

Jax has a 9f mid combo starter. Why its not the same with him? And the list can go on and on.

Same applies with his b2.


P.S: Jackal is a very good rep of the Emperor, but he got away with murder so many times in the videos you guys posted, its not even funny. I was watching moves which are -20f and -16f on block and they were being punished with d1's, throws etc. Even then i hope he does well in CB. I ll be rooting for him.

Post edited.

Dude, noob’s “9f mid combo starter” is incredibly stubby and truly punishable (not like you or whoever talking about how f3 is -8 lol) at -17 (yes there’s pushback but over half the cast can easily punish it) and the 1+3 is slow to come out giving so much time to prepare for the punish. My point is just that noob doesn’t get to just throw out b1. You wanna talk about Cassie? Go ahead lol.

It’s funny you bring up noob when noob’s gameplan is almost identical to Shao Kahn’s. Noob relies on b2 and d4, and can’t make people stand block, and plays a whiff punish, neutral based game where it’s difficult to open people up but he hits hard when he hits.

 

[Ram]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126247803431288832

Can't tell you how annoyed I am I dropped the combo at the end of the match. Lol

Hey OP, thanks for the thread

I'd like to pose more of a philosophical question to you:
You called this thread "basically what Shao Kahn is reduced to doing since his strings are bad"
But couldn't it just as easily have been called "basically what Shao Kahn should be doing since his insert his strengths here are good"

In other words, you're saying that to fight opponents effectively, Shao Kahn is limited to just a few moves. But doesn't the fact that using this approach is effective in battle (as you demonstrated in your match) mean that the main thesis of this thread should be 'simple is best'? Shao Kahn doesn't have to do anything fancy to win matches, I see that as a good thing!

You can say "but this is a lazy, uninspired, boring way to play a character". This may be true, but (1) that may be true for some but not for others, who may enjoy simpler gameplay, and (2) as competitive players, winning is generally our #1 priority, so it shouldn't really matter how we do it (i.e., using lots of "fancy" moves or just a couple "boring" moves, as long as we get that W!).

I hope I explained my points clearly. What do you think?

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

• Hammer Lunge isn't safe on block unless its at max range even then its probably possible to punish by specific moves. It doesn't have armor which means he can be hit out the air. It also can be whiffed by ducking opponent if their hurtbox is small while in the corner which puts you in the corner instead.
• F3,4, 1+3 string sucks because you can't cancel the 4 into a special move but it's also bugged because parries don't work on the F3. By the way the whole string is also unsafe.

-7 is safe in this game, pretty sure because it takes a frame to stop blocking, unless there's a 7f reversal special move somewhere.

EDIT: Just found a tweet from Dizzy saying it's because the game uses true startup (startup doesn't include the first active frame).

 

[ty lewis]

Maybe some of you are mad that Sonic took your excuses away....

Sonicfoxes latest video didn't take away any excuses. He reinforced what most have been saying. Shao Kahn can't use a large majority of his moves in order to do well and has to resort to using like 5 different moves.

Hey OP, thanks for the thread

I'd like to pose more of a philosophical question to you:
You called this thread "basically what Shao Kahn is reduced to doing since his strings are bad"
But couldn't it just as easily have been called "basically what Shao Kahn should be doing since his insert his strengths here are good"

In other words, you're saying that to fight opponents effectively, Shao Kahn is limited to just a few moves. But doesn't the fact that using this approach is effective in battle (as you demonstrated in your match) mean that the main thesis of this thread should be 'simple is best'? Shao Kahn doesn't have to do anything fancy to win matches, I see that as a good thing!

You can say "but this is a lazy, uninspired, boring way to play a character". This may be true, but (1) that may be true for some but not for others, who may enjoy simpler gameplay, and (2) as competitive players, winning is generally our #1 priority, so it shouldn't really matter how we do it (i.e., using lots of "fancy" moves or just a couple "boring" moves, as long as we get that W!).

I hope I explained my points clearly. What do you think?

You're definitely not wrong. Abusing his strengths is very effective and it shows you can easily win with them. However it just feels wrong for a character to be good due to a handful of moves that are effective and ignore the rest of the content that comes with the character due to them being useless in most situations. (tbh i really do like looking fancy when playing and may even give up the W if it means looking cool while doing it lol)

I don't WANT to ignore most of his moves as a lot of them are cool but I have to if I don't want to lose.

 

[ty lewis]

You need to see what a character with good corner carry actually looks like if you think Shao's is best in class. His usual starters (f21, 14) will lead to about 290~ midscreen. I guess if you are the kind of person who counts jumpins then yes he can get a bit over 300.

If you are relying on F2 at all with Shao Kahn you don't know what you're doing and you're probably playing someone who doesn't know the matchup or is bad.

 

[Olcadan13]

If you are relying on F2 at all with Shao Kahn you don't know what you're doing and you're probably playing someone who doesn't know the matchup or is bad.

eh not really true, I noticed you can usually catch someone trying to press buttons with f2 after a d4 on hit