Strategy A Discussion of Kenshi's Bad/Even/Advantage MU's.

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

A F0xy Grampa Snip.

but.... He's the player no on listens to his is eventually right.

How dare you.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

A F0xy Grampa...Normally you are very intelligent about this game but you have a slight error in your calculations. Please sit down and welcome to math class where I will attempt to dispel some myths that you are saying.

Myth one:

Red dash slide is a 20 frame move (12 rd plus 8 slide) this means I can whiff punish a shoulder (45 frame duration) on reaction from the right distance. You cant armor that friend.

Myth 2 and 3:

If I can whiff punish slide why do I have to random armor to get in at all? Plus out side of shoulder range it can be difficult to reflect daggers. If one hits and I cancel it into red dash, the dagger puts me at +12. The goal isnt to slide always but to make you hesitate. If you armor a slide attempt (like you said) and I armor at the same time, I will win for a 40% combo. If you hesitate because of my meter, I get the slide for free.

So slide gets you out huh? If skarlet has no meter you are correct. If skarlet has meter your fucked on wakeup. What can you do? My armor lasts longer than all of yours and if you try I get a combo, If you just block I get a block string. I like my odds.

Myth 4:

After Skarlets highest damaging meterless reset (46%) she can eh dagger into an 11% blockstring into safe slide that builds 3/4 of the eh dagger bar right back. This cannot be done on lao. He gets a free spin every time. Skarlet has to modify her Bnb combos to grant her more cancel advantage off of 112. This lowers her damage output, and makes pressure after a reset much more risky. Guaranteeing resets with eh dagger limits her block strings also because he can cpin or 21 spin her out of f212 1+2. hit box has a LOT to do with this.

Also this applies to all large hitbox characters...but When slide doesnt give you a fast enough approach, skarlet can whiff punish with eh dagger wither into safe jump or into f212 1+2. This cannot be done against mid or low hitbox characters. When I want to chip out kenshi, this is the perfect tactic.

Myth 5:


The only complete blocksting that is interruptible is b11f4 rd slide with a 2 frame window. Good luck doing that consistently. every other string is airtight and CANNOT be interrupted before slide. red dash slide is 20 frames. If the string has 19 or more frames of cancel advantage on block you cant do shit.

Myth 6:

Sorry I couldn't resist...dick move I know.

Things I agree with:

Duh...applies to every kenshi MU

Things I kind of agree with:

After I whiff punish a few shoulders and bait your wakeup with eh red dash for full combos, you will be forced to respect red dash. When I see this respect (and she will get it) empty dashes are perfectly reasonable to use... especially after block strings f2121+2 where she is only at -3 and can armor or d3 into more pressure or combos. Or eh dagger into frame traps or more blockstrings.

I had to be thorough because of how wrong you were. sorry if you get mad at this but math is math.

1. Who is gonna be whiffing shoulders as Kenshi? And even if you manage to slide for a whiff punish you're still putting him fullscreen, where he controls the pace of the match. So that means yes you do have to armour in because otherwise all you'll be doing is giving him meter and occassionally sliding him, HOPING that the shoulder will whiff. Playing a matchup based on hope isnt exactly a strong fundamental footing.

Skarlets pressure isnt infinite, Kenshi escapes it the same way anybody else does, by ducking. The whole hesitating and going into a blockstring thing works against those with no Skarlet experience, after a while it becomes so painfully obvious. The one thing I will give to Skarlet though is how inconsistent her frame data is, even if you know she's gonna feint and go for a blockstring, sometimes my 10f move comes out slower than hers even while she's negative.

Talking Skarlets frame data doesnt mean that she has an advantage on Kenshi, she still has to respect the shoulder, just like everybody else, she still cant zone him like most others. Like I said before, the only way you're getting in is by randomly armouring. Trying all her blockstrings with Ex daggers wont work if you just duck and fuzzy guard the slide/overhead mixup. You wont fall for the empty slide into blockstrings if you play it enough.

Also I'm positive Skarlet has other strings that you can armour out of, I've done it on either the 114 string, or the F221+2 string before.
You're also forgetting that Kenshis rushdown works perfectly on Skarlet, she cant just armour her way out of it. f22b2 into shoulder is still legit, shes forced to armour it, once she starts armouring it thats all her risk. You dont even have to check her with the shoulder too, F22B2 into a poke will do since you can block before she can attack you back, so she's wasted a bar for nothing other than to be comboed.

Same applies with her Slide into Ex slide mixup.
My point is, nearly all of the risk and meter use is on Skarlets part, that doesnt sound like a fair fight to me. Play it properly as Kenshi and you should only ever need your meter to fuck about and absorb daggers for health, or chip damage on ex shoulder.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

1. Who is gonna be whiffing shoulders as Kenshi? And even if you manage to slide for a whiff punish you're still putting him fullscreen, where he controls the pace of the match. So that means yes you do have to armour in because otherwise all you'll be doing is giving him meter and occassionally sliding him, HOPING that the shoulder will whiff. Playing a matchup based on hope isnt exactly a strong fundamental footing.

Skarlets pressure isnt infinite, Kenshi escapes it the same way anybody else does, by ducking. The whole hesitating and going into a blockstring thing works against those with no Skarlet experience, after a while it becomes so painfully obvious. The one thing I will give to Skarlet though is how inconsistent her frame data is, even if you know she's gonna feint and go for a blockstring, sometimes my 10f move comes out slower than hers even while she's negative.

Talking Skarlets frame data doesnt mean that she has an advantage on Kenshi, she still has to respect the shoulder, just like everybody else, she still cant zone him like most others. Like I said before, the only way you're getting in is by randomly armouring. Trying all her blockstrings with Ex daggers wont work if you just duck and fuzzy guard the slide/overhead mixup. You wont fall for the empty slide into blockstrings if you play it enough.

Also I'm positive Skarlet has other strings that you can armour out of, I've done it on either the 114 string, or the F221+2 string before.
You're also forgetting that Kenshis rushdown works perfectly on Skarlet, she cant just armour her way out of it. f22b2 into shoulder is still legit, shes forced to armour it, once she starts armouring it thats all her risk. You dont even have to check her with the shoulder too, F22B2 into a poke will do since you can block before she can attack you back, so she's wasted a bar for nothing other than to be comboed.

Same applies with her Slide into Ex slide mixup.
My point is, nearly all of the risk and meter use is on Skarlets part, that doesnt sound like a fair fight to me. Play it properly as Kenshi and you should only ever need your meter to fuck about and absorb daggers for health, or chip damage on ex shoulder.

Now we have the real issues. There are some valid points here. LBSH...you are going to whiff a shoulder eventually as Kenshi. If I am hovering around outside shoulder range with daggers and d3 it will happen. you are going to try and hit me right? if not your just going to let me build meter by dagger cancels all day while you reflect 1 or 2 at mid range? And its not hope...its footsies. Thats the game brah.

YEs you escape her pressure by ducking...but let me introduce you to her frame traps.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/skarlet-frame-traps-essential.25070/

These are legit and can lead to a crossover jip when trying to armor as well as poke and normal advantage...kenshi has to armor because his normals and shoulder are too slow to get him out of some of these frame traps when a Skarlet player uses them properly...this opens up cross overs more than people realize...and since none of his specials move him he becomes vulnerable.

and LBSH...all it takes is skarlet armoring one EH shoulder ( this can be done on reaction sometimes) for her to get a massive life lead into more pressure.

It seems plenty fair to me. Nobody has more Kenshi exp than me...I'm surprised pig hasn't replied yet. Honestly it is 5-5 in my book because of how much meter plays a role...but Skarlets meter gives her more than kenshis meter gives him and that might be why it is her favor...but I'm not ready to say that just yet.

 

[THTB]

Yeah man, he only blows up non-viable in tournament fish like Kitana, Cage, Liu Kang, Ermac, Sub, Rain, and Sektor. Why even count them in the MU chart, who even plays these garbage characters?

Thats not how tier lists work. An example is 3S, Chun-Li is #1 because she destroys 75% of the cast, yet she has a 4-6 with the #2 character. Having disadvantage match(es) doesn't let you ignore the rest of the MU chart.

I realize this is a disadvantage/even MU thread, I just wanted to refute that fallacy.

Please proceed.

Dizzy > you all.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Now we have the real issues. There are some valid points here. LBSH...you are going to whiff a shoulder eventually as Kenshi. If I am hovering around outside shoulder range with daggers and d3 it will happen. you are going to try and hit me right? if not your just going to let me build meter by dagger cancels all day while you reflect 1 or 2 at mid range? And its not hope...its footsies. Thats the game brah.

YEs you escape her pressure by ducking...but let me introduce you to her frame traps.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/skarlet-frame-traps-essential.25070/

These are legit and can lead to a crossover jip when trying to armor as well as poke and normal advantage...kenshi has to armor because his normals and shoulder are too slow to get him out of some of these frame traps when a Skarlet player uses them properly...this opens up cross overs more than people realize...and since none of his specials move him he becomes vulnerable.

and LBSH...all it takes is skarlet armoring one EH shoulder ( this can be done on reaction sometimes) for her to get a massive life lead into more pressure.

It seems plenty fair to me. Nobody has more Kenshi exp than me...I'm surprised pig hasn't replied yet. Honestly it is 5-5 in my book because of how much meter plays a role...but Skarlets meter gives her more than kenshis meter gives him and that might be why it is her favor...but I'm not ready to say that just yet.

I like you too Fly. You're also a solid voice of reason in the face on nonsense. Always have been.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I have not and do not plan on reading this entire thread. But, based on the OP alone, there is no way that Smoke has an advantage in the Kenshi matchup. That is very, very fair and even. I don't claim to be a top-level or even a high-level smoke player, but in my sets with Pig and A F0xy Grampa online neither of them played the matchup at ALL like you described in the OP. The Kenshi strategy you explain in the OP will indeed be beaten handily by Smoke, but I do not believe it is the correct way to play the matchup.

Foxy, if you read this, do you think you could explain your approach to Smoke further, as Kenshi? Yours is far and away the best I've ever played besides Pig's up to this point.

 

[Blackula]

L0rdoftheFLY for President?

 

[Blackula]

I have not and do not plan on reading this entire thread. But, based on the OP alone, there is no way that Smoke has an advantage in the Kenshi matchup. That is very, very fair and even. I don't claim to be a top-level or even a high-level smoke player, but in my sets with Pig and A F0xy Grampa online neither of them played the matchup at ALL like you described in the OP. The Kenshi strategy you explain in the OP will indeed be beaten handily by Smoke, but I do not believe it is the correct way to play the matchup.

Foxy, if you read this, do you think you could explain your approach to Smoke further, as Kenshi? Yours is far and away the best I've ever played besides Pig's up to this point.

Will you be at Winter Brawl or Final Round? I would like to play your Smoke. The more I play that matchup, the more I enjoy playing it.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Will you be at Winter Brawl or Final Round? I would like to play your Smoke. The more I play that matchup, the more I enjoy playing it.

Neither. I plan on going to Shang Tsung's Fight Night at GGA in a few weeks, and I'm trying my best to save up for EVO. We can play online whenever you'd like, though. I'd love to play your Kenshi. And I agree, Kenshi is easily my favorite match to play.

 

[matterovermind]

Anyone know what's CSZ vs Kenshi like?

 

[THTB]

Anyone know what's CSZ vs Kenshi like?

Free.

Idk, I just felt like saying free.

 

[Blackula]

Neither. I plan on going to Shang Tsung's Fight Night at GGA in a few weeks, and I'm trying my best to save up for EVO. We can play online whenever you'd like, though. I'd love to play your Kenshi. And I agree, Kenshi is easily my favorite match to play.

Unfortunately, I don't do MK9 online anymore. I haven't played it online in months. I can't stand the horrible netcode of the game, and refuse to play Kenshi in lag.

 

[RiBBz22]

I have not and do not plan on reading this entire thread. But, based on the OP alone, there is no way that Smoke has an advantage in the Kenshi matchup. That is very, very fair and even. I don't claim to be a top-level or even a high-level smoke player, but in my sets with Pig and A F0xy Grampa online neither of them played the matchup at ALL like you described in the OP. The Kenshi strategy you explain in the OP will indeed be beaten handily by Smoke, but I do not believe it is the correct way to play the matchup.

Foxy, if you read this, do you think you could explain your approach to Smoke further, as Kenshi? Yours is far and away the best I've ever played besides Pig's up to this point.

Yes, I totally agree with you and think it is even as well. However, I can totally understand why some Kenshi players would think Smoke has the advantage. I am not sure if the players claiming this have experience on the other side of the MU. And that is definitely not a knock of any sort, I just think this is a weird MU that needs to be played from both sides to be better understood.

 

[crosstalk]

Anyone remember when Cage-Kenshi was considered 5-5?

Nice thread though. I feel like a lot of Kenshi's losing/even MUs are debatable and probably will be for awhile.

 

[Blackula]

Yes, I totally agree with you and think it is even as well. However, I can totally understand why some Kenshi players would think Smoke has the advantage. I am not sure if the players claiming this have experience on the other side of the MU. And that is definitely not a knock of any sort, I just think this is a weird MU that needs to be played from both sides to be better understood.

I'm one of the few Kenshi players who actually thinks the matchup is even.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Yes, I totally agree with you and think it is even as well. However, I can totally understand why some Kenshi players would think Smoke has the advantage. I am not sure if the players claiming this have experience on the other side of the MU. And that is definitely not a knock of any sort, I just think this is a weird MU that needs to be played from both sides to be better understood.

I picked up Kenshi for this very reason.

Also Reptile. Fuck Reptile.

 

[Blackula]

I'm currently uploading the two matches I had with Wafflez at NEC on YouTube. As soon as they finish uploading, I'll embed them here.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I'm currently uploading the two matches I had with Wafflez at NEC on YouTube. As soon as they finish uploading, I'll embed them here.

Tag me so I know to watch them after I get out of class today. There is also a video floating around of Gross vs. Pig, I believe a link is in the "Gross joins Emperors" thread but I'm too lazy to go find it, lol

 

[RiBBz22]

I'm one of the few Kenshi players who actually thinks the matchup is even.

I think it comes down to a skewed view of how badly Smoke wins the MU when Kenshi does not have meter tbh. Smoke has clear advantage there which may cloud the rest of the MU, but once Kenshi has armor and can stop respecting the smoke bomb his game totally opens up and it puts Smoke in an uphill battle.

Also, as Mayo said Smoke does win full screen. But once Kenshi has done enough chip and has a life lead (he has FAR better chip options than Smoke in this MU), what does Kenshi have to fear from full screen distance against Smoke regardless of meter? Smoke will have to approach Kenshi at some point, and Kenshi has the best tools in the game to keep him out/do chip damage. When Smoke is in this position he has to be careful to get a good read on when the Kenshi player likes to use armor and try to pick his spots to trade with a non-armored projectile on his way in. He can try to dance in and out of projectile distance and try to whiff punish one on a read...or just try to move in, ducking flurries and potentially try to do something high risk/reward like jump a SC.

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

No you won't, if you empty dash intro more pressure you're already slower n frames thn you would have been if you went for a slide or an overhead. If you wanna start empty dashing you'll just be giving Kenshi free block string attempts. This is just common sense, the slide has something like 6-8 frames to interupt, in which I WILL try to interupt, so if you're going for a blockstring, instead of giving me 6-8 frames it gives me something like 20frames to interupt.

The Kenshi Scarlett matchup is probably one of the ones I've played most since I've played Kenshi. And when I break a matchup down, I really break it down. Skrlett can eventually get in, but she HAS to slide or overhead or Kenshi will get her out, even if she hit a slide it still let him escape

u wanna put that to test?

 

[RiBBz22]

I picked up Kenshi for this very reason.

Also Reptile. Fuck Reptile.

Cool, I picked him up because he's cheap! = ]

 

[Blackula]

Pool 3 Winners' Semi-Finals

Pool 3 Losers' Finals

 

[Blackula]

Cool, I picked him up because he's cheap! = ]

At least you're honest, lol.

I picked him up because he has telekinetic powers. Hence why I started playing Ermac when the game first came out and then switched to Kenshi when he came out.

 

[RiBBz22]

At least you're honest, lol.

I picked him up because he has telekinetic powers. Hence why I started playing Ermac when the game first came out and then switched to Kenshi when he came out.

haha I really love Noob as a character and was trying him out because I wanted to mess with a zoner...but when I downloaded Kenshi I was like F U N00B

 

[Blackula]

Everyone who didn't get to see the matches from NEC or who wants to watch them again, I uploaded the matches I had vs Wafflez. You will see dropped combos, whiff punishing, and more.