Strategy A Discussion of Kenshi's Bad/Even/Advantage MU's.

[STRYKIE]

Good write up. I'm still on the fence about what the Scorpion matchup really is, could easily be a 5-5, 6-4 or 7-3 (in Kenshi's favor) at this point, but Scorpion's a very different matchup in general when the player fighting against him goes by the "lawl Skawp sux hu carez" mentality and only goes by experience they've had with 111 mashers online.

I will say this though, it is easier to exploit Scorp's instant teleport shenanigans here than most matchups from my experience, hellfire is good for trading against Kenshi but it's not necessarily his only footsie tool in the matchup. Not to mention most of Scorpion's damage will be meterless and can get up to 40% + vortex setups for making reads and *gasp* jump kicking over spirit charge.

Not that I'm saying that it's the mindset that the Scorpion player should approach the matchup with, but more often than not he's able to save his meter for breakers when he makes a mistake.

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

Mayo kenshi - skarlet (6-4) skarlet
Possible (5-5) all comes down to meter management, but like u said se rapes the shit out of kenshi hitbox, i could tell pig was trying to armor out of my pressure at dallas, and was unable to do so because of skarlets jailing, he has to be standing to get off ex sc or rk, and on a standing opponent is where skarlets pressure is its strongest so yea...rock in a hard place.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

rock in a hard place.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Under_The_Mayo Very nice write up, I agree with almost everything you said. However in the sonya write up I would mention her military stance 2, which she can use to go through flurry and overheads, forcing kenshi to try to shoulder charge her more.

 

[CptXecution]

Isn't there already a Kenshi MU discussion thread?

This might just be the inner mod in me talking.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I love Mayo.

Excellently done, sir. Agreed entirely.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Mayo kenshi - skarlet (6-4) skarlet
Possible (5-5) all comes down to meter management, but like u said se rapes the shit out of kenshi hitbox, i could tell pig was trying to armor out of my pressure at dallas, and was unable to do so because of skarlets jailing, he has to be standing to get off ex sc or rk, and on a standing opponent is where skarlets pressure is its strongest so yea...rock in a hard place.

Since then pig has learned the MU and plays it much better. His meter management has improved drasticly. And you are right when you say it comes down to meter management. Both character build tons of meter in this MU. Skarlet dagger d3 at mid range under kenshi tele flurry and red dash in and out around shoulder and tks.

Eventually skarlet gets in and if I footsie well, I have meter to burn when I get in. Kenshi's only hope is to build enough meter to keep me out with eh sc or breaker after I combo him. If he can kill me before then he wins.

Strong 5-5 IMO. Could turn into 6-4 skarlet when execution is no longer an issue.

 

[quandaghost]

Okay fine I'll do it.

First let me disagree with the Cyrax matchup.


There are almost no good screen positions for Kenshi against cyrax.

Input at the same time, a net will trade with an overhead slash or teleflurry even from fullscreen, which in turn gives him enough time to teleport into a full combo. The animation of net even goes through teleflurry a lot. This along with bombs really gives Cyrax a victory in the zoning war. You can reflect nets to absorb them, but with bombs around you, you can only be so patient until he forces a situation where you have no option but to take a net or a bomb.

Obviously this means that Kenshi has to be the aggressor in this matchup, but almost more importantly than that, that means that Kenshi can not build meter comfortably in this match.


Once the game transitions into a mid range game, it's still very dangerous to throw anything out. Kenshi's footsie tools are VERY strong, but they are still relatively slow; at the very least slow enough that a mid range net will catch any one of them (it has an 18 frame startup.) Shoulder charge is your safest bet, but even then, on hit, it knocks Cyrax away, allowing him the chance to zone again, and if they make the correct read and jump, cyrax will hit you harder than any other character in the game. You literally need to hit with 11 shoulder charges to equal the damage of what he can do for one bar if he guesses right even once.


Obviously the Cyrax player can also move in on you if you are waiting for jumps. Point blank is extremely bad for Kenshi. Not many people realize that Cyrax, like Jax, is great at abusing large hitboxes. His 334 is plus on block, and Kenshi is forced to block it, among other things. Due to the way he can stagger his strings, Cyrax is already one of the most dangerous characters in rushdown, but on a large hitbox character, it gets ridiculous.

Kenshi depends on meter a LOT once Cyrax gets inside. The only problem, is that he also needs that meter to break any hits that Cyrax lands, or else you almost automatically lose the round. The fact that Kenshi has no way to reliably build meter, but needs meter to get out of pressure AND to break in this matchup, means that you will be spread extremely thin in the meter department (and of course Cyrax can drain your meter too.)



With all of this together, I find that Cyrax is easily one of Kenshi's hardest matchups. I definitely feel more comfortable playing against Lao than I do against Cyrax. Krayzie Denzell do you guys agree with most of this?

But what about the recent find with the Kenshi landmines. I mean now he can just refelct the net around the time the bomb is going off and have a little blast zone around that gives him full combos

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

But what about the recent find with the Kenshi landmines. I mean now he can just refelct the net around the time the bomb is going off and have a little blast zone around that gives him full combos

First of all, the timing in between the net hitting you, and the bomb going off have to be VERY specific, so if the Cyrax delays or does the net faster even just by a bit, the bomb will hit you anyway.

On top of that, Krayzie already recorded a very nice video showing that if you just do an Anti Air (DF1) right as they would reflect the bomb, they will get hit by it instead.

And even MORESO, if Cyrax sees that you DID manage to reflect the net, and then the bomb, it STILL only does something if he walks into it within the 5 or so seconds after it happens.


Basically it's just not practical.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

But what about the recent find with the Kenshi landmines. I mean now he can just refelct the net around the time the bomb is going off and have a little blast zone around that gives him full combos

The landmine tech is more of a quirky discovery that an actual tactic. It's more something that could happen and you should be ready to capitalize on it, rather than something you should be trying to constantly go for. But there also seems to be a sweet spot that I'm currently looking into to.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Since then pig has learned the MU and plays it much better. His meter management has improved drasticly. And you are right when you say it comes down to meter management. Both character build tons of meter in this MU. Skarlet dagger d3 at mid range under kenshi tele flurry and red dash in and out around shoulder and tks.

Eventually skarlet gets in and if I footsie well, I have meter to burn when I get in. Kenshi's only hope is to build enough meter to keep me out with eh sc or breaker after I combo him. If he can kill me before then he wins.

Strong 5-5 IMO. Could turn into 6-4 skarlet when execution is no longer an issue.

Have you guys messed with the fact that repeated Daggers at full screen can't be reflected, because they disappear? Like DF1 xx Dash Cancel Immediate DF1 > repeat.

Do they machine gun fast enough to stuff his overhead?



Some things I wanted to test but never had the chance.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Skarlett isn't a losing matchup, if you could armour her slides very time like you're supposed to be able to, then she shouldn't have a chance, she gets shoulder abused like everybody else. Her armour isn't that amazing againt Kensington because from its effective range she has to jus throw it out randomly which isn't too hard to punish. The high hitbox thing doesn't really matter against skarlett, even kl vs skarlett she gets away with the same bullshit. Kenosha can win this match by careful shoulder placement, reflects into chip, baiting the ex rd, like I said, she has no real way in other than by spending her meter. Kenshi should only spend his meter on ex rk to interrupt the red slide after block strings.

Smoke isn't a lost fight either, b2 punishes smoke bombs on reaction from quite a distance, you just hop over it, get the life lead at the beginning with ex tf an you're good to go. Try to keep in shoulder range so that you can force him to block I the shoulder when he smoke bombs you. In the corner, it's party time with shoulders.

Kung Lao can't teleport for free either, just d3 shoulder it every time, they both have similar rush down styles but kenhi is less risk but slower and has armour. I think he more I look into this match the harder it will become for kl, only pl seems to play in a fashion that destroys kenshi, every other Lao is too slow paced.

The key to beating Kenshi is having an ability that makes it difficult for him to shoulder like kabal has gas blasts, freddy plays outside the range and kl will reverse your inputs.
Shoulder is pretty much the foundation of Kenshi, shoulder b2 and f3 are the very most basic important points, if he can do this against your character, you're probably reallyfucked, if he can do a couple, your probably even if losing, if he can do none, he's in trouble

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

Skarlett isn't a losing matchup, if you could armour her slides very time like you're supposed to be able to, then she shouldn't have a chance, she gets shoulder abided like everybody else. Her armour isn't that amazing againt Kensington because from its effective range she has to jus throw it out randomly which isn't too hard to punish. The high hitbox thing doesn't really matter against skarlett, even kl vs skarlett she gets away with the same bullshit

Smoke isn't a lost fight either, b2 punishes smoke bombs on reaction from quite a distance, you just hop over it, get the life lead at the beginning with ex tf an you're good to go.

Kung Lao can't teleport for free either, just d3 shoulder it every time, they boh have similar rush down styles but kenhi is less risk but slower and has armour. I think he more I look into this match the harder it will become for kl, only pl seems to play in a fashion that destroys kenshi, every other Lao is too slow paced

foxy it isnt as simple as u make it seem, u sit there looking for a slide and a overhead from skarlet n ur gonna eat a empty dash into more pressure n mixups, like we said it comes down to meter, i dont think kenshi builds meter quite as fast as skarlet can but he is up there, skarlet constantly gains meter she spends back once she gets in n starts pressure, meter only holds 3 bars not 10, so u wont see a kenshi ex sc skarlet everytime she feels free to come in, she is gonna get in on kenshi...its inevitable.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

foxy it isnt as simple as u make it seem, u sit there looking for a slide and a overhead from skarlet n ur gonna eat a empty dash into more pressure n mixups, like we said it comes down to meter, i dont think kenshi builds meter quite as fast as skarlet can but he is up there, skarlet constantly gains meter she spends back once she gets in n starts pressure, meter only holds 3 bars not 10, so u wont see a kenshi ex sc skarlet everytime she feels free to come in, she is gonna get in on kenshi...its inevitable.

No you won't, if you empty dash intro more pressure you're already slower n frames thn you would have been if you went for a slide or an overhead. If you wanna start empty dashing you'll just be giving Kenshi free block string attempts. This is just common sense, the slide has something like 6-8 frames to interupt, in which I WILL try to interupt, so if you're going for a blockstring, instead of giving me 6-8 frames it gives me something like 20frames to interupt.

The Kenshi Scarlett matchup is probably one of the ones I've played most since I've played Kenshi. And when I break a matchup down, I really break it down. Skrlett can eventually get in, but she HAS to slide or overhead or Kenshi will get her out, even if she hit a slide it still let him escape

 

[Vagrant]

I ran the Scorp Kenshi MU with Pig after FF, and you're dead on.

I like this thread btw.
I like it alot.

It is good thread.

 

[Dizzy]

If he loses to the S tier (with the only exception being Sonya) how can he in turn be S tier? By blowing up a bunch of fish? The entire top ten stomps all over the fish. Working with this he has 5 to 7 bad mu's. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the rest of the S tier only have 2-3? Reading through this, and it has a lot of good points, I think Kenshi's community appointed #2 position is seriously in question especially if the list is constructed off viability where destroying a bunch of fish characters is unimportant.

Yeah man, he only blows up non-viable in tournament fish like Kitana, Cage, Liu Kang, Ermac, Sub, Rain, and Sektor. Why even count them in the MU chart, who even plays these garbage characters?

Thats not how tier lists work. An example is 3S, Chun-Li is #1 because she destroys 75% of the cast, yet she has a 4-6 with the #2 character. Having disadvantage match(es) doesn't let you ignore the rest of the MU chart.

I realize this is a disadvantage/even MU thread, I just wanted to refute that fallacy.

Please proceed.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Yeah man, he only blows up non-viable in tournament fish like Kitana, Cage, Liu Kang, Ermac, Sub, Rain, and Sektor. Why even count them in the MU chart, who even plays these garbage characters?

Thats not how tier lists work. An example is 3S, Chun-Li is #1 because she destroys 75% of the cast, yet she has a 4-6 with the #2 character. Having disadvantage match(es) doesn't let you ignore the rest of the MU chart.

I realize this is a disadvantage/even MU thread, I just wanted to refute that fallacy.

Please proceed.

I like you Dizzy.

 

[Vagrant]

How can

I like you Dizzy.

I don't understand how people can not like dizzy.....

 

[Blackula]

Kung Lao can't teleport for free either, just d3 shoulder it every time, they both have similar rush down styles but kenhi is less risk but slower and has armour. I think he more I look into this match the harder it will become for kl, only pl seems to play in a fashion that destroys kenshi, every other Lao is too slow paced.

Nope. You do more than just that. If he decides to do instant 3, you d+3 to avoid it and then you do more than just a spirit charge. You combo his ass. Kung Lao can lose 28 damage for trying to go for instant tele 3.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Nope. You do more than just that. If he decides to do instant 3, you d+3 to avoid it and then you do more than just a spirit charge. You combo his ass.

Theres no time to fuck about though, if he goes for the delayed 3, you could be too slow, so D3 shoulder charge is your safest quickest bet.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I like how .. regardless of what happens... people just assume they have godlike reactions.

You aren't going to punish a SB on reaction. I literally laughed hella hard at that one statement.

 

[Blackula]

Theres no time to fuck about though, if he goes for the delayed 3, you could be too slow, so D3 shoulder charge is your safest quickest bet.

You forget how often I've played this match. Going for delayed 3 is even worse for Kung Lao because now I have more time to respond to him. If I don't see a foot come out the instant you teleport, you're getting d+1 for free.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I like how .. regardless of what happens... people just assume they have godlike reactions.

You aren't going to punish a SB on reaction. I literally laughed hella hard at that one statement.

Yeah. The Skarlett and Smoke comments from a certain player are absolutely absurd. As i dealing with B2 range SB's was actually the issue. Thanks Charlie.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You forget how often I've played this match. Going for delayed 3 is even worse for Kung Lao because now I have more time to respond to him. If I don't see a foot come out the instant you teleport, you're getting d+1 for free.

D1 is the last thing I'd do against a teleporting KL, he has 2 moves from the teleport specifically designed to beat D1s.
You forget that I play both characters & have played KL since day 1

 

[Blackula]

When I played Wafflez, I was punishing his Smoke Bomb with b+2. However, that is all distance dependent. If you're right up on Smoke and you try it, smoke bomb will win. If you're about 1 to 2 character distances away, then you win with the b+2. And if you do b+2 to avoid Smoke bomb from a distance, be careful that Smoke isn't nearby because I tried that and got uppercutted by him. So if he uppercutted me, that means he can go for a faster attack and punish you for trying to avoid it with b+2.