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Strategy A Discussion of Kenshi's Bad/Even/Advantage MU's.

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I like how .. regardless of what happens... people just assume they have godlike reactions.

You aren't going to punish a SB on reaction. I literally laughed hella hard at that one statement.
How much do you wanna bet? If you see the start up of the smoke bomb, press B2, easy. Same applies to moves like SZs slide, Barakas blade charge, KLs roll. Come on man....

I'll put my bank account up against yours yeah?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
How much do you wanna bet? If you see the start up of the smoke bomb, press B2, easy. Same applies to moves like SZs slide, Barakas blade charge, KLs roll. Come on man....

I'll put my bank account up against yours yeah?
You aren't "seeing" the start up... you're looking for it. There is a HUGE difference. Plus.. at the range you want to punish SB... he has other options that are incredibly better. Seems thin.

C'mon man.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
You aren't "seeing" the start up... you're looking for it. There is a HUGE difference. Plus.. at the range you want to punish SB... he has other options that are incredibly better. Seems thin.

C'mon man.
No... You react to it, SB is hardly that quick of a move. You use B2 at the correct time and you'll avoid any SB attempt anywhere on the screen, its all just timing.

If you're in B2 range and he goes for a smoke bomb, he's gonna get B2'd thats all there is to it. Its a massive distance to cover anyway. He doesnt have incredibly better options, he has D4 and B23, which both are outranged by the shoulder AND Kenshis B2, so what incredible better option are you talking about?
 

Blackula

I SEE EVERYTHING!
I'm going to find the video from NEC of me vs Wafflez. I will show you where using b+2 was successful and where I failed at using it. Then you can be the judge if it was on reaction or not.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I'm going to find the video from NEC of me vs Wafflez. I will show you where using b+2 was successful and where I failed at using it. Then you can be the judge if it was on reaction or not.
Fine then, if you can't do it on reaction thats down to you. But I know I can, and I dont see why anybody else couldn't. Its not like a smoke bomb isnt a move everybody has to react to, you have to block, just substitute the block for B2.
 

Blackula

I SEE EVERYTHING!
Fine then, if you can't do it on reaction thats down to you. But I know I can, and I dont see why anybody else couldn't. Its not like a smoke bomb isnt a move everybody has to react to, you have to block, just substitute the block for B2.
Oh wait, I think I got lost in it all. I actually agree with you that you can react to it. I must have misread and thought you were the one saying it couldn't be reacted to.

Derp.............
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
How much do you wanna bet? If you see the start up of the smoke bomb, press B2, easy. Same applies to moves like SZs slide, Barakas blade charge, KLs roll. Come on man....

I'll put my bank account up against yours yeah?
Foxy is actually right this time, I have hit Smoke's out of smoke bomb with blade charge before. It is not as hard as it would seem.

Not sure about B2 though because of range and stuff. But with certain characters it is very doable.
 

NariTuba

disMember
Kung Lao
Lao takes that away by being able to air teleport during any jump, freeing up his jump ins to not get SC'd. And when you do try to SC, and he teleports, you're gonna pay the price in a full combo. Speaking of combos, this match increased in difficulty once Lao players upped their combo damage from 33% to damn near 48% every time they hit you.
Cyblax can do this too. The downside for Cyblax is that he doesnt have instant 3 to force Kenshi to block if Kenshi tried an AA2 instead of a SC. But the upside is that if he teleports a SC he gets 70%+ for 1 bar. The invincibility from his teleport means that worse case scenario he has to block after teleporting. Cyrax can also use his teleport to bait SC but at a greater risk.

Nice thread!
 

Blackula

I SEE EVERYTHING!
Cyblax can do this too. The downside for Cyblax is that he doesnt have instant 3 to force Kenshi to block if Kenshi tried an AA2 instead of a SC. But the upside is that if he teleports a SC he gets 70%+ for 1 bar. The invincibility from his teleport means that worse case scenario he has to block after teleporting. Cyrax can also use his teleport to bait SC but at a greater risk.

Nice thread!
We know not to attack Cyblax when he teleports. I'm sure every Kenshi knows what it feels like to be blown up by Cyblax for trying to punish his teleport, lol.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Have you guys messed with the fact that repeated Daggers at full screen can't be reflected, because they disappear? Like DF1 xx Dash Cancel Immediate DF1 > repeat.

Do they machine gun fast enough to stuff his overhead?



Some things I wanted to test but never had the chance.
Because kenshi can reflect then both with his dumb ass reflect glitch reflecting two projectiles, you cant trade. Its literally a standstill until one person messes up. Kenshi doesnt need to overhead or teleflurry after. If he does, skarlet will win. Execution is the enemy here for skarlet dagger cancels.
 

ShanxterX

@shanxterx follow me hoes
Will you be at Winter Brawl or Final Round? Those are the next two majors I will be attending.
i will try to make one of them...hopefully

i main lao and i believe it is a 5.5 - 4.5 lao favor just need fight more top kenshis to experiment more with this matchup.
 

NariTuba

disMember
We know not to attack Cyblax when he teleports. I'm sure every Kenshi knows what it feels like to be blown up by Cyblax for trying to punish his teleport, lol.
Dont let him teleport for free tho... Kenshi cant use sc or exsc as a panic button like he can in so many other MUs, but Cyblax teleport does have 22f of recovery so you can f22b2 and he HAS to block the whole string and take the mixup afterward. If he made you whiff something it makes sense not to attack but if he randomly teleports in be sure to hit him with it.
There's the odd instance where Cyblax can use his standing 1 to get in between your f2 and 2, but its a gamble that a sane player will only take when desperate or when he has a monster lead to try to close off the match.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Because kenshi can reflect then both with his dumb ass reflect glitch reflecting two projectiles, you cant trade. Its literally a standstill until one person messes up. Kenshi doesnt need to overhead or teleflurry after. If he does, skarlet will win. Execution is the enemy here for skarlet dagger cancels.
Well dagger cancels aren't that hard, so is it something that the Skarlet player could use if they have the life lead to force Kenshi to come to her?
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Dont let him teleport for free tho... Kenshi cant use sc or exsc as a panic button like he can in so many other MUs, but Cyblax teleport does have 22f of recovery so you can f22b2 and he HAS to block the whole string and take the mixup afterward. If he made you whiff something it makes sense not to attack but if he randomly teleports in be sure to hit him with it.
There's the odd instance where Cyblax can use his standing 1 to get in between your f2 and 2, but its a gamble that a sane player will only take when desperate or when he has a monster lead to try to close off the match.
That thing where the attack goes through Cyblax as he's recovering happens so much though!

And the risk/reward is so highly in Cyblax's favor. Like 70% vs like 10% if it hits him.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Under_The_Mayo

I think the Smoke MU is even, but I can understand why a lot of Kenshi's have problems with it. I play both characters and have played on both sides of the MU...and it kind of sucks for both characters... Smoke is definitely at advantage when Kenshi has no meter for the reasons you mentioned, but when Kenshi does have meter it is extremely difficult for Smoke to do anything since all trades will favor Kenshi due to his armor and the inability to footsie his way in due to SC or D3 SC. With no meter Kenshi really has to respect the Smoke bomb and Smoke players should be peppering Kenshi with them looking to create a mistake.

Does Kenshi's F3 cause smoke bomb to whiff when it is done in the range where the move will hit?
 

NariTuba

disMember
That thing where the attack goes through Cyblax as he's recovering happens so much though!

And the risk/reward is so highly in Cyblax's favor. Like 70% vs like 10% if it hits him.
Yeah its pretty stupid, you have to practice against it, if you mess up the timing you're done.

But once you know the timing its not that hard, you have to delay the string a bit, not try to hit him as soon as he teleports. Players here who I frequently play against (so they have gotten used to the matchup) never allow me to teleport for free at all anymore.

To me it kinda feels like the timing to punish CSZs parry, do it too soon or too late and you get parried. When you first deal with it it seems ridiculous, but once you get a feel for the timing its actually pretty simple.

The plus for Kenshi vs Cyblax is that he can zone him more because his bombs are slower, so this kinda forces him to try to walk into mid range to trade a net.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Yeah man, he only blows up non-viable in tournament fish like Kitana, Cage, Liu Kang, Ermac, Sub, Rain, and Sektor. Why even count them in the MU chart, who even plays these garbage characters?

Thats not how tier lists work. An example is 3S, Chun-Li is #1 because she destroys 75% of the cast, yet she has a 4-6 with the #2 character. Having disadvantage match(es) doesn't let you ignore the rest of the MU chart.

I realize this is a disadvantage/even MU thread, I just wanted to refute that fallacy.

Please proceed.
I completely understand the example but doesn't Freddy and Cyblax also wreck most of those characters (if not more on top of that, but I reiterate it's just for example's sake) and yet haven't been considered higher than 4th? In his defense I'm sure he's essentially only questioning the consensus behind Kenshi being 2nd in the tier list.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
A F0xy Grampa...Normally you are very intelligent about this game but you have a slight error in your calculations. Please sit down and welcome to math class where I will attempt to dispel some myths that you are saying.

Myth one:
if you could armour her slides very time like you're supposed to be able to, then she shouldn't have a chance, she gets shoulder abused like everybody else
Red dash slide is a 20 frame move (12 rd plus 8 slide) this means I can whiff punish a shoulder (45 frame duration) on reaction from the right distance. You cant armor that friend.

Myth 2 and 3:
Her armour isn't that amazing againt Kensington because from its effective range she has to jus throw it out randomly which isn't too hard to punish
If I can whiff punish slide why do I have to random armor to get in at all? Plus out side of shoulder range it can be difficult to reflect daggers. If one hits and I cancel it into red dash, the dagger puts me at +12. The goal isnt to slide always but to make you hesitate. If you armor a slide attempt (like you said) and I armor at the same time, I will win for a 40% combo. If you hesitate because of my meter, I get the slide for free.
Skrlett can eventually get in, but she HAS to slide or overhead or Kenshi will get her out, even if she hit a slide it still let him escape
So slide gets you out huh? If skarlet has no meter you are correct. If skarlet has meter your fucked on wakeup. What can you do? My armor lasts longer than all of yours and if you try I get a combo, If you just block I get a block string. I like my odds.

Myth 4:
The high hitbox thing doesn't really matter against skarlett, even kl vs skarlett she gets away with the same bullshit.
After Skarlets highest damaging meterless reset (46%) she can eh dagger into an 11% blockstring into safe slide that builds 3/4 of the eh dagger bar right back. This cannot be done on lao. He gets a free spin every time. Skarlet has to modify her Bnb combos to grant her more cancel advantage off of 112. This lowers her damage output, and makes pressure after a reset much more risky. Guaranteeing resets with eh dagger limits her block strings also because he can cpin or 21 spin her out of f212 1+2. hit box has a LOT to do with this.

Also this applies to all large hitbox characters...but When slide doesnt give you a fast enough approach, skarlet can whiff punish with eh dagger wither into safe jump or into f212 1+2. This cannot be done against mid or low hitbox characters. When I want to chip out kenshi, this is the perfect tactic.

Myth 5:
Kenshi should only spend his meter on ex rk to interrupt the red slide after block strings
the slide has something like 6-8 frames to interupt so if you're going for a blockstring, instead of giving me 6-8 frames it gives me...
The only complete blocksting that is interruptible is b11f4 rd slide with a 2 frame window. Good luck doing that consistently. every other string is airtight and CANNOT be interrupted before slide. red dash slide is 20 frames. If the string has 19 or more frames of cancel advantage on block you cant do shit.

Myth 6:
when I break a matchup down, I really break it down.
Sorry I couldn't resist...dick move I know.

Things I agree with:
Kenosha can win this match by careful shoulder placement, reflects into chip, baiting the ex rd
Duh...applies to every kenshi MU

Things I kind of agree with:
if you empty dash intro more pressure you're already slower n frames thn you would have been if you went for a slide or an overhead
After I whiff punish a few shoulders and bait your wakeup with eh red dash for full combos, you will be forced to respect red dash. When I see this respect (and she will get it) empty dashes are perfectly reasonable to use... especially after block strings f2121+2 where she is only at -3 and can armor or d3 into more pressure or combos. Or eh dagger into frame traps or more blockstrings.

I had to be thorough because of how wrong you were. sorry if you get mad at this but math is math.