A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

[KH_Captain]

Saying Wowo beats Arrow 6-4 is one of the most batshit crazy things I've seen on this site.

Says all about the chart and Wowo's placement.

amen, wowo numbers are way off. where are all the wowo tournament wins cuz with these nbrs pros would be flocking to her like mad tryin to win. wowo is my main and I can attest. she may have a couple 7-3s, loses at least 5 matchups I can think of, and a bunch of these 6-4s are even.

 

[KH_Captain]

Green arrow beats wonder woman 6-4 and Aquaman wins 6-4 against wonder woman too.. if not is 5-5 at least.

wowo aquamen 5-5 and I agree ga wins.

 

[KH_Captain]

Just thought I'd mention that Akro had said on stream that Cyborg and Darkseid have advantage over WoWo.

agree they not terrible but they have the adv

 

[Deleted member 58466]

If wonder woman is the best,then why don't we see her in tournaments?

I'm guessing it's because everyone settled into other characters early in the game, and when no one thought WoWo was any good. When tournaments came up, no one played her because of this conception. But as characters are buffed and nerfed, people realized WoWo was good and she slowly rose to the top, avoiding nerfs.

That's just a guess though. I actually don't know why she's kinda slept on.

 

[wsj515]

Projectiles are not generally a very important means by which Black Adam generates meter. In fact, I find it difficult to see how BA would use either Black Magic or lightning as a means of building meter at all.

So whatever tools BA primarily uses to gain meter are still left generally intact, while Superman loses access to one of his two primary means along with f23 into trait/breath.

The majority of the match ends up being played just outside of f1/f2 range for each character, so there is little opportunity for straight laser.

Keep in mind once again that this is just one aspect of the MU and not the MU itself.

Again, you are only looking at what your character can do in isolation. Adam gains meter on block strings, d1 lightning hands, etc., same way Superman gains meter with f23 breath. If all either character can do to build meter is block strings in the matchup, then how can you say that one does a better job than the other? In that case, explain why, because to me that implies that Adam has the ability to keep Superman blocking longer to build more meter, and therefore probably has the advantage up close, which I seriously disagree with.

Adam's ability to gain meter cannot be the major factor why you think this matchup is a 6-4 for Adam, so please say why. If all Adam has over Superman is meter build, than Adam should be losing this matchup.

 

[Undergroundepict]

Again, you are only looking at what your character can do in isolation. Adam gains meter on block strings, d1 lightning hands, etc., same way Superman gains meter with f23 breath. If all either character can do to build meter is block strings in the matchup, then how can you say that one does a better job than the other? In that case, explain why, because to me that implies that Adam has the ability to keep Superman blocking longer to build more meter, and therefore probably has the advantage up close, which I seriously disagree with. I'm definitely developing Alzheimer's or something, lol.

Adam's ability to gain meter cannot be the major factor why you think this matchup is a 6-4 for Adam, so please say why. If all Adam has over Superman is meter build, than Adam should be losing this matchup.

For whatever reason, I thought you had asked me to breakdown that particular aspect of the MU and why I thought it was so important. I had way too many screens open at the same time that day, so no surprise I mixed something up. Second (or actually first) time in this thread I have fundamentally misunderstood the meaning of someone's posts, and ran with it, although for vastly different reasons.

My post was only intended as a breakdown of the fullscreen/zoning apect of the MU and its implications. While I feel as though the impacts it has on the way meter builds in the match are very important, I wouldn't go so far as to call it central. It's not *the* most important thing, but it is *an* important thing.


Honestly, I'm still way too dead to offer any sort of substantive MU breakdown right now. Just typing this post out was a mission I only took up in order to explain my error in comprehension.

I'll breakdown the rest of the MU the next time I am on, which could be a while. That said I am anxious to continue, and sorry for all of the confusion.

 

[The_Tile]

For whatever reason, I thought you had asked me to breakdown that particular aspect of the MU and why I thought it was so important. I had way too many screens open at the same time that day, so no surprise I mixed something up. Second (or actually first) time in this thread I have fundamentally misunderstood the meaning of someone's posts, and ran with it, although for vastly different reasons.

My post was only intended as a breakdown of the fullscreen/zoning apect of the MU and its implications. While I feel as though the impacts it has on the way meter builds in the match are very important, I wouldn't go so far as to call it central. It's not *the* most important thing, but it is *an* important thing.


Honestly, I'm still way too dead to offer any sort of substantive MU breakdown right now. Just typing this post out was a mission I only took up in order to explain my error in comprehension.

I'll breakdown the rest of the MU the next time I am on, which could be a while. That said I am anxious to continue, and sorry for all of the confusion.

Something people forget to mention about this MU is how strong the post hands meta is for Adam. It's basically like the post breath metagame cause of the pushback and how it's only -3

 

[wsj515]

Something people forget to mention about this MU is how strong the post hands meta is for Adam. It's basically like the post breath metagame cause of the pushback and how it's only -3

It's weaker than the post breath metagame because f1 is a high and Superman's backdash is significantly better than Adam's. Superman has safer offensive options after f23 breath than Adam does after lightning hands, and Superman has safer defensive options options after lightning hands than Adam does after breath. Not to mention there is a gap in d1 lightning hands.

Even if they end up being similar, you guys keep bringing up fairly equal scenarios - its almost like I'm arguing that the matchup is 4-6 Superman and you guys are arguing its a 5-5, except you guys think Adam wins...

 

[The_Tile]

It's weaker than the post breath metagame because f1 is a high and Superman's backdash is significantly better than Adam's. Superman has safer offensive options after f23 breath than Adam does after lightning hands, and Superman has safer defensive options options after lightning hands than Adam does after breath. Not to mention there is a gap in d1 lightning hands.

Even if they end up being similar, you guys keep bringing up fairly equal scenarios - its almost like I'm arguing that the matchup is 4-6 Superman and you guys are arguing its a 5-5, except you guys think Adam wins...

I don't actually think Adam wins, I've always thought it's been a 5-5. I just wanted to throw in my 2c cause no one seems to mention this.

After hands Adam can walk back/backdash (not played the MU recently, can't remember which one it is) and very easily whiff punish a follow up F23.

Supes has to make a hard read to punish a backdash and commit to a fwd dash himself as none of his buttons catch it. This is obviously very easily whiff punished.

B2 to whiff punish pokes. Safe and can be made plus with trait to continue pressure.

IIRC, the F12 string will catch Supes' backdash after hands. Can't remember if it's actually a punish or whether it forces him to block afterwards, either way it's still significant enough that it's worth mentioning.

And finally there's MbB3 or F3, which will beat out F23 if Supes doesn't have trait on. I think this meta is actually really strong and shouldn't just be glossed over when talking about the MU. It's really similar to the breath meta game

 

[GLoRToR]

#tearlist

 

[wsj515]

I don't actually think Adam wins, I've always thought it's been a 5-5. I just wanted to throw in my 2c cause no one seems to mention this.

After hands Adam can walk back/backdash (not played the MU recently, can't remember which one it is) and very easily whiff punish a follow up F23.

Supes has to make a hard read to punish a backdash and commit to a fwd dash himself as none of his buttons catch it. This is obviously very easily whiff punished.

B2 to whiff punish pokes. Safe and can be made plus with trait to continue pressure.

IIRC, the F12 string will catch Supes' backdash after hands. Can't remember if it's actually a punish or whether it forces him to block afterwards, either way it's still significant enough that it's worth mentioning.

And finally there's MbB3 or F3, which will beat out F23 if Supes doesn't have trait on. I think this meta is actually really strong and shouldn't just be glossed over when talking about the MU. It's really similar to the breath meta game

You make good points, Superman can whiff punish a f12 after hands if he backdashes tho.

 

[KH_Captain]

wonder woman can't really open you up. she relies on the opponent to make mistakes and take advantage. From full screen her options are nil other than look to build meter w parries or mb roll. she needs to edge her way into mid screen to be good. up close she's easy to block and punish if she tries to pressure unless she burns meter. she does have some safe and + strings but they are fairly easy to block or have gaps to interrupt, so if you don't have 2bars to threaten bounce cancel you'll have to concede and take opponents mix/offense and back back into mid range. it's a painful game of patience and puts her at disadvantage in a lot of situations vs characters that can just throw out mix/offense and characters that have multiple fullscreen options w overheads/lows, teleports, air dashes and can move around the stage with ease. I concede to the great wowo players like grawlix akro and kp, but I'd think they'd agree a lot of these matchups are overrated. definite changes imo
catwoman 5-5
firestorm 4-6
fate 4-6
green arrow 4-6 or at least 5-5 def not win characters screen control is incredible get in get mixed and knocked back to fullscreen.
black manta 5-5
Batman 5-5
blue beetle 5-5
cyborg 4-6
darkseid 5-5
braniac 5-5
cheetah 6-4
cpt cold 5-5 after new patch maybe even 4-6 this character is waaay better now. Do not get trapped in corner, and + frames/ lvl2 mix are crazy, best anti air in game.
grodd 6-4

others seem ok

catwoman the SS character in every discussion ive ever heard.

 

[Insomniac FGC]

wonder woman can't really open you up. she relies on the opponent to make mistakes and take advantage. From full screen her options are nil other than look to build meter w parries or mb roll. she needs to edge her way into mid screen to be good. up close she's easy to block and punish if she tries to pressure unless she burns meter. she does have some safe and + strings but they are fairly easy to block or have gaps to interrupt, so if you don't have 2bars to threaten bounce cancel you'll have to concede and take opponents mix/offense and back back into mid range. it's a painful game of patience and puts her at disadvantage in a lot of situations vs characters that can just throw out mix/offense and characters that have multiple fullscreen options w overheads/lows, teleports, air dashes and can move around the stage with ease. I concede to the great wowo players like grawlix akro and kp, but I'd think they'd agree a lot of these matchups are overrated. definite changes imo
catwoman 5-5
firestorm 4-6
fate 4-6
green arrow 4-6 or at least 5-5 def not win characters screen control is incredible get in get mixed and knocked back to fullscreen.
black manta 5-5
Batman 5-5
blue beetle 5-5
cyborg 4-6
darkseid 5-5
braniac 5-5
cheetah 6-4
cpt cold 5-5 after new patch maybe even 4-6 this character is waaay better now. Do not get trapped in corner, and + frames/ lvl2 mix are crazy, best anti air in game.
grodd 6-4

others seem ok

catwoman the SS character in every discussion ive ever heard.

We'd love to go over these suggested changes. Could you explain them to us one by one starting with Catwoman?

 

[KH_Captain]

We'd love to go over these suggested changes. Could you explain them to us one by one starting with Catwoman?

as far as my other characters go (black canary and catwoman) the numbers look solid besides this one.
cw takes away reg shield toss and downward shield toss. that hurts wowo pretty bad. she has better movement, better meter build and management, better/safe wake up dp, viable low combo starter. j2 range. These things in particular make it hard for wowo to win mu. idk how deep into it you want me to go though or this post might be a novel lol.

 

[Insomniac FGC]

Just thought I should point out that we're regularly updating the tier list and match up chart. Here's a list of the changes that have been made (can also be found on the match up chart page).

Version 1.02.06

Brainiac vs Doctor Fate 5-5 → 4-6
Captain Cold vs Black Canary 5-5 → 6-4
Captain Cold vs Sub-Zero 4-6 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs TMNT – Leonardo 4-6 → 5-5
Catwoman vs Sub-Zero 6-4 → 5-5

Version 1.02.05

Blue Beetle vs Captain Cold 6-4 → 5-5
Blue Beetle vs Firestorm 4-6 → 5-5
Cheetah vs Raiden 6-4 → 5-5
Cheetah vs Swamp Thing 5-5 → 6-4
Cheetah vs Wonder Woman 3-7 → 4-6

Version 1.02.04

Wonder Woman vs Catwoman 6-4 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs Starfire 4-6 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs Red Hood 4-6 → 5-5

Version 1.02.03

Captain Cold vs Black Adam 3-7 → 4-6
Captain Cold vs Deadshot 4-6 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs Enchantress 4-6 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs Harley Quinn 4-6 → 5-5
Captain Cold vs Joker 4-6 → 5-5
TMNT – Leonardo vs Gorilla Grodd 6-4 → 5-5

Version 1.02.02

Superman vs Aquaman 5-5 → 6-4
Black Adam vs Doctor Fate 6-4 → 5-5
Black Adam vs Swamp Thing 6-4 → 5-5
Green Arrow vs Wonder Woman 4-6 → 5-5
Blue Beetle vs Wonder Woman 4-6 → 5-5

Version 1.02.01

Donatello vs Darkseid 5-5 → 6-4
Donatello vs Brainiac 5-5 → 6-4
Raiden vs Wonder Woman 3-7 → 4-6
Raiden vs Darkseid 4-6 → 5-5
Raiden vs Gorilla Grodd 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Atom 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Cheetah 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Darkseid 5-5 → 6-4
Gorilla Grodd vs Deadshot 5-5 → 6-4
Gorilla Grodd vs Flash 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Red Hood 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Superman 4-6 → 5-5
Gorilla Grodd vs Wonder Woman 3-7 → 4-6
Atom vs Atrocitus 6-4 → 5-5

 

[God Confirm]

4th time asking, doubt I'll get a response, but again - why is the Flash / Cold match up 5-5 when it's been almost universally agreed up till now as a 3-7 at best, for being one of Flash's worst / Cold's best ? TJ even pointed out to me that it's especially confusing when you guys recognise Canary goes 4-6 against him, how you got Flash doing BETTER?

 

[wsj515]

Isn't Superman supposed to be one of the harder matchups for Fate?

 

[Insomniac FGC]

Isn't Superman supposed to be one of the harder matchups for Fate?

Maybe back before all the ankh pressure was fleshed out it was. It has since been agreed to be an even match up

why is the Flash / Cold match up 5-5 when it's been universally agreed up till now as a 3-7 at best, for being one of Flash's worst / Cold's best ?

Could you give us a slice of this universe? I may not be successful at getting our reps to reach out to you, but I may have some more success relaying the info to them. Any links where this match up is thoroughly discussed would be helpful. If the match up truly is as grossly represented as you claim, we want to make sure it gets corrected.

 

[God Confirm]

Maybe back before all the ankh pressure was fleshed out it was. It has since been agreed to be an even match up



Could you give us a slice of this universe? I may not be successful at getting our reps to reach out to you, but I may have some more success relaying the info to them. Any links where this match up is thoroughly discussed would be helpful. If the match up truly is as grossly represented as you claim, we want to make sure it gets corrected.

I'm not trawling through months of discussion on this game trying to find discussion on the cold / flash match up, especially with TYM's shitty search feature + discussion on the topic split between 4 different places I've seen from here, 2 character discords and the TYM one.

I'm not TELLING you how it is, maybe you're right I dunno, I'm ASKING for an explanation.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

I'm not trawling through months of discussion on this game trying to find discussion on the cold / flash match up, especially with TYM's shitty search feature + discussion on the topic split between 4 different places I've seen from here, 2 character discords and the TYM one.

I'm not TELLING you how it is, maybe you're right I dunno, I'm ASKING for an explanation.

The cold/flash reps have no reason to believe the matchup is anything other than 5-5 at this point. If you have reasons why it should be changed we'd love to hear them and relay that information for further discussion as other's in this thread have successfully done.

 

[God Confirm]

The cold/flash reps have no reason to believe the matchup is anything other than 5-5 at this point. If you have reasons why it should be changed we'd love to hear them and relay that information for further discussion as other's in this thread have successfully done.

It's probably the 10th time I've said it, but again, I'm not asking for it to be changed or saying its wrong, I'm just asking for an explanation of your perspective here.

So just to clarify, the explanation is "we landed on 5-5 because we have no reason to believe its anything else?"

 

[Insomniac FGC]

I'm not trawling through months of discussion on this game trying to find discussion on the cold / flash match up

Oh, my mistake. When you said that the Flash vs Captain Cold match up has been...

universally agreed up till now as a 3-7 at best

...I assumed that you would have no trouble finding posts corroborating that statement.

 

[God Confirm]

Oh wow these responses are cancer lol. How not to do a tier list in 2018.

Oh, my mistake. When you said that the Flash vs Captain Cold match up has been...



...I assumed that you would have no trouble finding posts corroborating that statement.

YOURE the one putting forth match up numbers. I'm asking a question. I'm not trying to prove anything. The fact that you guys get so unbelievably defensive when asked to explain it just makes it clear you have zero idea what you're talking about.

I'm saying this was the common impression, and I'm doing my absolute best here to hear you guys out, but you seem to have a million excuses why you don't have to explain lol

 

[God Confirm]

I assumed that if you put up a tier list stating numbers you'd have no problem corroborating those numbers with some sort of explanation when asked.

 

[Baconlord]

I assumed that if you put up a tier list stating numbers you'd have no problem corroborating those numbers with some sort of explanation when asked.

I'm sorry about the inconvenience and I'm working on getting a write up for you. please keep in mind that a lot of cold's numbers have been under review since the patch so his numbers will most likely change in the near future