A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

[God Confirm]

So why is Flash 5/5 against Cold, but winning against Manta?

Nobody ever did answer that.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Meanwhile, I'm just 13 FCing.

 

[Undergroundepict]

GRODD ONLY LOSES A FEW MU'S. HE LOSES TO THE FOLLOWING, AQUAMAN 7-3, WOWO 6-4, ROBIN 6-4, BATMAN 6-4 POSSIBLE 5-5, STARFIRE 6-4, AND I FEEL BANE IS LOW KEY BAD MU FOR GRODD BUT THATS JUST ME

Ffs, man, this caps lock is killing me. Please, lol.

No one really knows tbh it's just weird to play for both people. All I know is Grodd is actually pretty good at breaking armour on reads

I used to feel that Bane beat Grodd pretty handily but after playing the MU out quite a bit lately I am no longer sure. 22 gap being patched definitely works significantly in Grodd's favor in this MU. Anything Bane could do to armor out of Grodd's vortex is made nearly irrelevant by the fact that Grodd can just backdash instead of attacking and whiff punish venom uppercut for a full combo into another vortex again. The risk/reward is almost not even worth it most of the time.

I don't believe that Grodd beats Bane, necessarily, just that it might just be a 5-5, although at this point I can see it going 6-4 either way, to be honest. It's certainly a complicated MU.

 

[Cursa]

I used to feel that Bane beat Grodd pretty handily but after playing the MU out quite a bit lately I am no longer sure. 22 gap being patched definitely works significantly in Grodd's favor in this MU. Anything Bane could do to armor out of Grodd's vortex is made nearly irrelevant by the fact that Grodd can just backdash instead of attacking and whiff punish venom uppercut for a full combo into another vortex again. The risk/reward is almost not even worth it most of the time.

I don't believe that Grodd beats Bane, necessarily, just that it might just be a 5-5, although at this point I can see it going 6-4 either way, to be honest. It's certainly a complicated MU.

I think it's even, or Grodd wins. Grodd's options on knockdown are pretty much leap (Grab immune and hard to punish) or just holding the mix, since going for leap on wakeup is still kinda risky. His backdash and wakeups get bip'd by grab so that's a threat if Grodd decides to not wakeup with leap.

The worst part is Grodd's unique armour breaking setups which work against Bane's reversals but if Bane decides to try and S1 you instead he is going to make it count if he has 2 bars.

I'm leaning more towards "Bane loses" because at least leap on wakeup is a thing, which is more than a lot of characters has

 

[Marinjuana]

EVERYTHING ELSE IS EITHER 5-5 OR HE WINS

What do you or other Grodd players think about the Brainiac matchup? 5-5? I always thought that was a potentially good matchup for Brainiac but there's so little of you Grodds around to really get that judgement. I suppose Grodd has some upside in his trait projectile invulnerable being a counter to Brainiac's trait, that Brainy has a 7 frame d1 and armored stampedes to get through some of his more gimmicky pressure but it just seems like Brainiac can really lame him out and then mix well when he gets a good hit.

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

What do you or other Grodd players think about the Brainiac matchup? 5-5? I always thought that was a potentially good matchup for Brainiac but there's so little of you Grodds around to really get that judgement. I suppose Grodd has some upside in his trait projectile invulnerable being a counter to Brainiac's trait, that Brainy has a 7 frame d1 and armored stampedes to get through some of his more gimmicky pressure but it just seems like Brainiac can really lame him out and then mix well when he gets a good hit.

ITS DEF AN INTERESTING MU, HOWEVER I BELIEVE ITS 5-5 AT THE END OF THE DAY.

 

[Crusty]

EVERYTHING ELSE IS EITHER 5-5 OR HE WINS

I dare ask, what mus do you think he wins?

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

I dare ask, what mus do you think he wins?

I THINK GRODD BEATS- DARKSEID, REDHOOD, HARLEY, CYBORG, DEADSHOT, MAYBE SUB ZERO AND MAYBE FLASH

 

[wsj515]

Here would be my Adam changes:

He definitely does not beat Fate, I think it's a 5-5 but many other Adams think its 4-6 Fate. From fullscreen we can stop him from just zoning freely by threatening dive kicks and black magic, but there are a lot of mind games and fate can definitely zone in the matchup. Up close, its momentum based, after f2 glyph Adam has to make hard reads outside of just continue to block or backdash/jump back.

I think Grodd is a 5-5, Goonie agrees above. I don't know the matchup inside and out so I can't go into that much detail, but his d1 is really strong against Adam.

Superman is a 5-5. @Undergroundepict might disagree with me and we've talked about it a lot. Whenever people talk about this matchup, they talk about how Superman can't shoot lasers because Adam can punish, but there's no reason why Superman should ever throw out a non MB laser in the matchup. Up close is momentum based and similar to Fate, Adam needs to make hard reads after breath if he wants to take his turn. Superman has way more dirt in the corner, if Adam gets cornered he's in serious trouble. I don't think there's anywhere on screen that Adam actually has serious advantage.

Swamp Thing is a 5-5. f12 whiffs at most ranges when swamp thing crouches, and when it does connect it does so later in the 2's active frames. Both situations can be pretty easily full combo punished, though in the second scenario you need to be scouting it a bit/on point. A lot of Swamp Thing's strings push Adam out of range of connecting his d1, so Adam cannot check Swamp thing trying to take another turn outside of a hard read. If Swampthing corner's Adam, serious trouble. Adam's zoning has been nerfed, but his zoning wasn't good enough to keep him out to begin with. This might even be a 4-6

 

[Undergroundepict]

Here would be my Adam changes:

He definitely does not beat Fate, I think it's a 5-5 but many other Adams think its 4-6 Fate. From fullscreen we can stop him from just zoning freely by threatening dive kicks and black magic, but there are a lot of mind games and fate can definitely zone in the matchup. Up close, its momentum based, after f2 glyph Adam has to make hard reads outside of just continue to block or backdash/jump back.

I think Grodd is a 5-5, Goonie agrees above. I don't know the matchup inside and out so I can't go into that much detail, but his d1 is really strong against Adam.

Superman is a 5-5. @Undergroundepict might disagree with me and we've talked about it a lot. Whenever people talk about this matchup, they talk about how Superman can't shoot lasers because Adam can punish, but there's no reason why Superman should ever throw out a non MB laser in the matchup. Up close is momentum based and similar to Fate, Adam needs to make hard reads after breath if he wants to take his turn. Superman has way more dirt in the corner, if Adam gets cornered he's in serious trouble. I don't think there's anywhere on screen that Adam actually has serious advantage.

Swamp Thing is a 5-5. f12 whiffs at most ranges when swamp thing crouches, and when it does connect it does so later in the 2's active frames. Both situations can be pretty easily full combo punished, though in the second scenario you need to be scouting it a bit/on point. A lot of Swamp Thing's strings push Adam out of range of connecting his d1, so Adam cannot check Swamp thing trying to take another turn outside of a hard read. If Swampthing corner's Adam, serious trouble. Adam's zoning has been nerfed, but his zoning wasn't good enough to keep him out to begin with. This might even be a 4-6

Indeed we have had some talks about that MU, lol. It's one of those matchups where the community is very split between 6-4 and 5-5. I actually consider it to be a 5.5-4.5 personally, which just barely qualifies it as a 6-4 after rounding. Regardless of whether we listed that MU as a 6-4 or a 5-5, somebody was going to be unhappy, lol.

As for the zoning, and this is only part of the MU, both characters can punish each other for throwing projecties from nearly anywhere on the screen. But if Superman catches Black Adam with a laser, he gets 8%. Meanwhile, if Black Adam catches Superman with a divekick, he gets a full combo.

That said, you are absolutely right that Superman should never, ever, throw out lasers in the neutral against a competent Adam. Nor should Adam be attempting to throw out Black Magic or lightning. The thing is, Superman's general gameplan as a character relies heavily on the abilty to throw lasers out there as a means of incurring chip, getting the occasional stray hits, and most importantly, building meter. As a result of this, Superman suffers a significant meter deficiency compared to what he is used to, and Black Adam seemingly always maintains the meter lead, which he can therefore frequently use to pushblock Superman in the situations he might be most threatening.

Meanwhile, Adam's projectiles are generally used as counterzoning tools, and as such aren't nearly as important to his gameplan if neither character can use projectiles anyways.

That's not the whole matchup breakdowm ftr; just one particular aspect of it. Hopefully my position on why I feel the inabilty to zone is an important aspect of the MU negatively impacting Superman.

 

[wsj515]

Indeed we have had some talks about that MU, lol. It's one of those matchups where the community is very split between 6-4 and 5-5. I actually consider it to be a 5.5-4.5 personally, which just barely qualifies it as a 6-4 after rounding. Regardless of whether we listed that MU as a 6-4 or a 5-5, somebody was going to be unhappy, lol.

As for the zoning, and this is only part of the MU, both characters can punish each other for throwing projecties from nearly anywhere on the screen. But if Superman catches Black Adam with a laser, he gets 8%. Meanwhile, if Black Adam catches Superman with a divekick, he gets a full combo.

That said, you are absolutely right that Superman should never, ever, throw out lasers in the neutral against a competent Adam. Nor should Adam be attempting to throw out Black Magic or lightning. The thing is, Superman's general gameplan as a character relies heavily on the abilty to throw lasers out there as a means of incurring chip, getting the occasional stray hits, and most importantly, building meter. As a result of this, Superman suffers a significant meter deficiency compared to what he is used to, and Black Adam seemingly always maintains the meter lead, which he can therefore frequently use to pushblock Superman in the situations he might be most threatening.

Meanwhile, Adam's projectiles are generally used as counterzoning tools, and as such aren't nearly as important to his gameplan if neither character can use projectiles anyways.

That's not the whole matchup breakdowm ftr; just one particular aspect of it. Hopefully my position on why I feel the inabilty to zone is an important aspect of the MU negatively impacting Superman.

But you are describing something that effects both characters. I don't understand how Adam gains the meter lead if neither character can throw projectiles. Adam isn't sitting at full screen doing ia close dive kicks to build meter. Superman can still use straight laser to gain meter, probably in a safer way than Adam can use low lightning.

 

[Vengeance135]

Look, I haven't been on this site for quite a long ass time due to how toxic it can be. Once a fellow joker player put this in our discord I felt maybe I should just ignore the joker mu but it turns out, I can't.

I would love to know who came up with the joker portion of this mu chart and please dont say only 1 joker player helped you guys.

The characters community has been quite dead since... well since forever. I can tell you right now 95% of the people that contributed to the joker portion of this mu chart hardly have real joker experience.

BUT I digress, trying to discuss it here is really not going to go anywhere. I just had to take a moment to laugh at the great majority of jokers mu.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

Look, I haven't been on this site for quite a long ass time due to how toxic it can be. Once a fellow joker player put this in our discord I felt maybe I should just ignore the joker mu but it turns out, I can't.

I would love to know who came up with the joker portion of this mu chart and please dont say only 1 joker player helped you guys.

The characters community has been quite dead since... well since forever. I can tell you right now 95% of the people that contributed to the joker portion of this mu chart hardly have real joker experience.

BUT I digress, trying to discuss it here is really not going to go anywhere. I just had to take a moment to laugh at the great majority of jokers mu.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

This site can certainly be toxic. It's one of the reasons I moved to discord. But, tbf the Joker chart is pretty solid, we've had alot of strong joker players on the case for this particular character. But feel free to dispute with explanation and I'll be happy to relay it to them.

 

[Vengeance135]

This site can certainly be toxic. It's one of the reasons I moved to discord. But, tbf the Joker chart is pretty solid, we've had alot of strong joker players on the case for this particular character. But feel free to dispute with explanation and I'll be happy to relay it to them.

Could you tell me the strong joker players by chance? Or tag them here for discussion. I still keep up with the majority of the tournaments that are posted on YouTube and joker is still pretty nonexistent. I would love to have a conversation with this people if at all possible

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Undergroundepict]

But you are describing something that effects both characters. I don't understand how Adam gains the meter lead if neither character can throw projectiles. Adam isn't sitting at full screen doing ia close dive kicks to build meter. Superman can still use straight laser to gain meter, probably in a safer way than Adam can use low lightning.

Projectiles are not generally a very important means by which Black Adam generates meter. In fact, I find it difficult to see how BA would use either Black Magic or lightning as a means of building meter at all.

So whatever tools BA primarily uses to gain meter are still left generally intact, while Superman loses access to one of his two primary means along with f23 into trait/breath.

The majority of the match ends up being played just outside of f1/f2 range for each character, so there is little opportunity for straight laser.

Keep in mind once again that this is just one aspect of the MU and not the MU itself.

 

[God Confirm]

HeeyGeorge and Aqua.

I can't say our representation could get much stronger unless Empr Dark also decided he wanted in. So, yeah.

Also, you complained about the toxicity present on TYM, but your initial post was extremely toxic. Probably the most toxic in the entire thread. Which, if you read back a little bit... Ho-Lee-Shiet.

oh my god.

You're legitimately saying this post here

https://i.imgur.com/26d5VRD.png

is extremely toxic?


Lmfao. The word toxic has just become a synonym for "anything I disagree with" lol.

 

[Vengeance135]

HeeyGeorge and Aqua.

I can't say our representation could get much stronger unless Empr Dark also decided he wanted in. So, yeah.

Also, you complained about the toxicity present on TYM, but your initial post was extremely toxic. Probably the most toxic in the entire thread. Which, if you read back a little bit... Ho-Lee-Shiet.

Who is Aqua? And you named only 2 people. 2 people represent and entire character community? I mean if that's what works then I guess. If my message seemed salty it wasnt meant to be. It's just the truth. I would be open to conversation but conversations in the community go down the drain rather quick which is why I chose to stay away from this site.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Vengeance135]

oh my god.

You're legitimately saying this post here

https://i.imgur.com/26d5VRD.png

is extremely toxic?


Lmfao. The word toxic has just become a synonym for "anything I disagree with" lol.

I do in fact disagree with it. the toxicity stems from the overall lack of willingness to actually have a useful conversation here.

I've had better conversations with other injustice players online and in discord and get much more useful information.

Now dont get me wrong, I have met some pretty cool people like @xKhaoTik and @x_teejay on this site for sure but as a whole, conversations here do indeed go downhill fairly quick, which leads to insults and theory situations where the vast majority actually dont know what they are talking about, they just assume they do and that's one of the main things that makes this community toxic. I am aware of how to use the word.

Anyways, just wanted to put my two sense in.

@x TeeJay o sorry for messing up your tag lol we should play some time soon. It's been a minute

 

[Undergroundepict]

oh my god.

You're legitimately saying this post here

https://i.imgur.com/26d5VRD.png

is extremely toxic?


Lmfao. The word toxic has just become a synonym for "anything I disagree with" lol.

Lmao. Fucking bodied.


Obviously I meant the " Hey guys I only came in here to laugh at the tier list post."

And I only commented because of the unbelievably lack of self-awareness that was present saying "I left TYM because it was too toxic. I came back just to tell you that YOUR TIER LIST SUCKS!!!"

 

[God Confirm]

Lmao. Fucking bodied.


Obviously I meant the " Hey guys I only came in here to laugh at the tier list post."

And I only commented because of the unbelievably lack of self-awareness that was present saying "I left TYM because it was too toxic. I came back just to tell you that YOUR TIER LIST SUCKS!!!"

You've really spun that into some sort of attack on you. He said he doesn't often post on here, but he didn't agree with the placings for the Joker rep and questioned the experience.

That's not toxic. He just disagrees. Man.

 

[Undergroundepict]

Who is Aqua? And you named only 2 people. 2 people represent and entire character community? I mean if that's what works then I guess. If my message seemed salty it wasnt meant to be. It's just the truth. I would be open to conversation but conversations in the community go down the drain rather quick which is why I chose to stay away from this site.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

We have convos in our council, and if you check out the first several pages of this thread you can see how much of an effort we have made to engage and make others feel included.

But calling a community toxic and then saying you only came back to tell some guys to fuck off definitely made me have to do a double take.

Unless there is some key piece of information I am missing somewhere, which with my current level of sleep is a definite possibilty.

Anyways, if you are willing to tell us your thoughts on MU's I'm still willing to hear them. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the coucil to have offered the same invitation.

 

[Vengeance135]

You've really spun that into some sort of attack on you. He said he doesn't often post on here, and he didn't agree with the placings for the Joker rep and questioned the experience.

That's not toxic. He just disagrees. Man.

Thank you, someone understands.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Undergroundepict]

You've really spun that into some sort of attack on you. He said he doesn't often post on here, and he didn't agree with the placings for the Joker rep and questioned the experience.

That's not toxic. He just disagrees. Man.

Maybe. Perhaps it's a bad idea to mix extreme sleep-deprivation and forum posting, lol.


If I was way off about something I will offer a retraction tomorrow.

 

[Vengeance135]

We have convos in our council, and if you check out the first several pages of this thread you can see how much of an effort we have made to engage and make others feel included.

But calling a community toxic and then saying you only came back to tell some guys to fuck off definitely made me have to do a double take.

Unless there is some key piece of information I am missing somewhere, which with my current level of sleep is a definite possibilty.

Anyways, if you are willing to tell us your thoughts on MU's I'm still willing to hear them. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the coucil to have offered the same invitation.

See what I mean by toxic? I clearly didn't tell anyone to fuck off. I would like to have an engaging conversation with you but after you put words in my mouth I can see it wouldn't amount to much. As you stated, you are sleep deprived so maybe revisiting this conversation could possibly be a better idea.

As for what I disagree with, I really dont see the sense in the conversation anymore. I've tried multiple approaches in my discussions through the course of both injustice 1 and 2 rather it was me being super salty or super understanding.

Discussion mu's have proven pretty useless in a forum for the most part.

However, if you are on playstation I would be more then happy to give you my full breakdown and run sets.

I find actually breaking down the mu with the characters accessible in a more hands on environment is much more efficient then just discussing mu's and theorizing situations.

My PSN Vengeance135

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Undergroundepict]

See what I mean by toxic? I clearly didn't tell anyone to fuck off. I would like to have an engaging conversation with you but after you put words in my mouth I can see it wouldn't amount to much. As you stated, you are sleep deprived so maybe revisiting this conversation could possibly be a better idea.

As for what I disagree with, I really dont see the sense in the conversation anymore. I've tried multiple approaches in my discussions through the course of both injustice 1 and 2 rather it was me being super salty or super understanding.

Discussion mu's have proven pretty useless in a forum for the most part.

However, if you are on playstation I would be more then happy to give you my full breakdown and run sets.

I find actually breaking down the mu with the characters accessible in a more hands on environment is much more efficient then just discussing mu's and theorizing situations.

My PSN Vengeance135

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yeah, my bad. I have real sleep problems.

In my fatigue, you wrote one thing, but my mind was reading something completely different, lol.

Me versus my sleep/wake cycle is a 2-8 MU