Match-up Discussion Oooooh Numbers

[A F0xy Grampa]

Jade matchup is 6-4 in Rains favor. Its a footsie based match since jade zoning is strictly limited. She also cant compete with his damage output neither.

Her can also armour through some of her strings and rang setups too, it can get pretty brutal.

 

[SLy]

Her can also armour through some of her strings and rang setups too, it can get pretty brutal.

Yea Its a uphill battle. I honestly believe in time it could be the 7-3 added to her collection

 

[Espio]

6-4 Rain at worst for her honestly. You can armor a large portion of many characters on the cast's strings, like Raiden for example, but he doesn't lose to Rain or other characters badly simply for that reason, there's a reason why you can stagger strings and set ups, mix things up. Jade can armor several of Rain's strings and Roundhouse cancel pressure.

 

[Mothmonsterman0]

Kabal cant just sit fullscreen and spam iAGBs because the bubble goes under them, its not a tool for damage, but for breathing space, once they understand they cant just throw iAGBs all day you can move. If it does catch them then fair enough, thats alot of damage.

Know your frame data, moves like F32NDC are +2 on block, B1 NDC is +1 B12 is +2. All these mean is that Kabal can be interupted with Rains 4 unless he does a standing 2 or a F4 everytime. Once you make them commit to doing F4s it means that they're leaving themselves either -5/have to commit to a 5050 or a dash.
Combine all these with the threat of exRH it means that Kabals cant just be ignorant in their rushdown, the risk is nearly always in Rains favour.
Respect 2NDC, or duck it and try to punish with 4RH.

Armoured RH dash beats every one of his wakeup options, other than Kabals that immediately get up and iAGB (for some retarded reason?). But if they do that you can just run in and AA them with 1 before they leave the ground and follow up with the 38% AA

4RH crushes Kabals D3.

Buzz saws are probably the most annoying thing in this match.

I'm not too sure if its even as bad as 4-6 though, cause Kabal cant hurt Rain without using his rushdown. Could possibly be 5-5.

Hm, I'll honestly say I didn't know kabals frame data as well as I should so that sheads so light on the MU, but I knew that rain can at least hang in terms of rush down. My biggest question about bubble vs IAGB is can't kabal blow it up on reaction? I mean its very slow and if that's all Rain can do shouldn't the kabal player just be waiting to jump or armor straight though it? Wouldn't kabal have a stupid meter building advantage with IAGB, saws, rush down, and more or less anything else he wants to do. The only way I've ever been able to get meter in this' MU is taking damage really lol.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Hm, I'll honestly say I didn't know kabals frame data as well as I should so that sheads so light on the MU, but I knew that rain can at least hang in terms of rush down. My biggest question about bubble vs IAGB is can't kabal blow it up on reaction? I mean its very slow and if that's all Rain can do shouldn't the kabal player just be waiting to jump or armor straight though it? Wouldn't kabal have a stupid meter building advantage with IAGB, saws, rush down, and more or less anything else he wants to do. The only way I've ever been able to get meter in this' MU is taking damage really lol.

You can bubble between gas blasts, if he's in the air he's forced to block it when he lands. Its not all he can do, he can just do it Cage style and run in, or teleport if you have balls, but the bubble is his best move to make Kabal worry about iAGB spam.

You dont throw the bubble first, you throw it when they start the spam.

Thats what I'm talking about when I say you need to know frame data well to play Rain in general, he's not a character where you're going to be using pokes offensively, because he has 4RH, and any opportunity to squeeze out a 4RH is a safe potential chunk of life.

Yea Its a uphill battle. I honestly believe in time it could be the 7-3 added to her collection

Possibly, add the fact that lightning can whiff punish stuff like her U3 pretty well, she has nothing at reasonable range to stop him doing what he wants.

6-4 Rain at worst for her honestly. You can armor a large portion of many characters on the cast's strings, like Raiden for example, but he doesn't lose to Rain or other characters badly simply for that reason, there's a reason why you can stagger strings and set ups, mix things up. Jade can armor several of Rain's strings and Roundhouse cancel pressure.

Staggering strings in the way you're talking about against Rain is just suicide. That means you're literally walking right into his armour for no reason, and even if you're not, you're still giving him his RH game back.
But Rain vs Jade, Rain has better options at more ranges than Jade does to hurt her.

 

[16 Bit]

Ok this Rain upplaying needs to stop.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Ok this Rain upplaying needs to stop.

Where am I 'upplaying'?

 

[Death]

Ok this Rain upplaying needs to stop.

I find it refreshing considering all the kenshi, kitana, cage, smoke, cyrax, Sonya downplaying that's been going on lol

 

[16 Bit]

First off Rain is not better than Jax, Liu Kang, ect.

Secondly stop hyping up 4. It's not better than Sonya's d+4. Get out of here.

Lastly stop blowing up American Rain exp and stop feeling yourself.


Everyone concerned about this Rain upplaying can calm down. MU Police are here to regulate.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

First off Rain is not better than Jax, Liu Kang, ect.

Secondly stop hyping up 4. It's not better than Sonya's d+4. Get out of here.

Rain is soooo much better than Jax man, Jax midscreen is one of the shittiest characters, you dont HAVE to stand there and take f413 all day. Liu Kang I'd say could be a toss up.

Are you seriously gonna say that a move with slightly less range, slightly more speed and 4x the damage potential isnt as good as a D4? Get out of here.
They're effectively the same thing anyway, she has the cartwheeel guess, he has the RH guess.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Where am I 'upplaying'?

Dude theres really almost no point voicing your opinion about anything on this site man, didn't you know only about 4 people in this community are right about anything, the rest of us are just dumb fish feeding the pots of tournys and the ego's of the pro's.

 

[SLy]

^This is a sad truth

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Dude theres really almost no point voicing your opinion about anything on this site man, didn't you know only about 4 people in this community are right about anything, the rest of us are just dumb fish feeding the pots of tournys and the ego's of the pro's.

I get the Tom Brady treatment, I understand.

 

[SLy]

MK Politics. If its not their way you wont be listened to. Lol

 

[RunwayMafia]

Her can also armour through some of her strings and rang setups too, it can get pretty brutal.

Yeah, but she can glow through his RH pressure as well anything cancelled into RH. Tit for tat!

A visual reference of what Jade could potentially do to Rain. 12:13

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Here is what I don't get.
RH cancel is supposed to be +2. SZ can ice clone and you'll DASH into it. So.... really... the RH cancel is negative.... making the following 4 MORE than 10 frames.
Characters that have a 9 frame or less starter will full combo punish you in this 50/50 ... which IS worth the risk. I honestly don't know how many characters have that ability... but RH pressure is only as good as your guess.

I think you're uplaying a bit...... because you're a great player and see things differently..... but your points are valid I see what you're saying completely. He's not THAT bad.... but I don't really think he's as good as you make him out to be either. He struggles hard against people who can walk away from him with a life lead.... because unlike Jax... you're best armor doesn't cover 3/4 of the screen and allow you to keep momentum.

my 2 cents on the discussion, which is quite interesting for sure.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Here is what I don't get.
RH cancel is supposed to be +2. SZ can ice clone and you'll DASH into it. So.... really... the RH cancel is negative.... making the following 4 MORE than 10 frames.
Characters that have a 9 frame or less starter will full combo punish you in this 50/50 ... which IS worth the risk. I honestly don't know how many characters have that ability... but RH pressure is only as good as your guess.

I think you're uplaying a bit...... because you're a great player and see things differently..... but your points are valid I see what you're saying completely. He's not THAT bad.... but I don't really think he's as good as you make him out to be either. He struggles hard against people who can walk away from him with a life lead.... because unlike Jax... you're best armor doesn't cover 3/4 of the screen and allow you to keep momentum.

my 2 cents on the discussion, which is quite interesting for sure.

While this is true, the way I've been looking at it is, if you're not doing at least 40%, the advantage is to Rain in the close game, factor in that he can use meter for Ex rh cancels, and can cross over in them as well, it does become an intricate guess game, but its not so straight forward.

 

[SLy]

Yeah, but she can glow through his RH pressure as well anything cancelled into RH. Tit for tat!

A visual reference of what Jade could potentially do to Rain. 12:13

Armor plays a big part in the MU which is obvious. A main reason Why I believe it isnt 7-3. I guess an aspect of the MU depends on meter mangement and who can build it more.

 

[Big Pampering]

I'm not mad, you just came off like you didn't want to listen to reason.. If 21 is 8 frames and Assuming it's 0 on block, that means after a blocked 21 I have roughly 8 to gtfo before the next one hits... Be it with a backwash,cross up, d1/d3 ~ RH/ex RH or whatever comes to mind.. See what I mean? once there are options whatever tool you have is not guaranteed hence in that situation it all boils down to a read.

standing 2 is 7 frames, and there is nothing you can do but poke or block or armor, there is also character specific stuff but those are the universal options which also happens to be rains options. if you jump or dash you will get hit.

rain has good options, safe armor into full combo and a d4 that can be followed up with a mid, thats more than 70% of the cast can say

all I did was point out you cant dash out which isnt possible 90% of the time even against slow moves at point blank range.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Mothmonsterman0 does fine with him. As does @Smargasm.

And Scar mains freddy and skarlett, I never saw him use rain at MLG Dallas once.

Also as far as numbers, I still disagree with baraka matchup. If Baraka has perfect spacing it becomes extremely hard for rain.

Edit: Also dude, you are good. But you are not a god, and you are not the best player ever. You are so arrogant that it is a tad off-putting.

I'm so glad people are finally starting to realize this.

 

[Espio]

Staggering strings in the way you're talking about against Rain is just suicide. That means you're literally walking right into his armour for no reason, and even if you're not, you're still giving him his RH game back.
But Rain vs Jade, Rain has better options at more ranges than Jade does to hurt her.

Sigh..no if I stagger a string and you think I'm not going to stagger and you use your armor, you waste a bar of meter, which creates a mix up of its own. If I'm at -3 or neutral your blocked armor isn't going to do anything, but push me away. It's all guessing and reads, which shouldn't be factored into match up charts anyway.

Not to mention Jade has things like 3, staff grab, which is not armorable and creates a great deal of distance between her and the opponent, but I think LETHAL was right and I'll bow out.


Not arguing it's even, just not 7-3 (could be 5-5 or 4-6).

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Sigh..no if I stagger a string and you think I'm not going to stagger and you use your armor, you waste a bar of meter, which creates a mix up of its own. If I'm at -3 or neutral your blocked armor isn't going to do anything, but push me away. It's all guessing and reads, which shouldn't be factored into match up charts anyway.

Not to mention Jade has things like 3, staff grab, which is not armorable and creates a great deal of distance between her and the opponent, but I think LETHAL was right and I'll bow out.


Not arguing it's even, just not 7-3.

If its all guessing and reads, which shouldnt be factored, then staggering strings and armour will be useless all together, because you only ever use armour as a read with either character.

 

[Espio]

If its all guessing and reads, which shouldnt be factored, then staggering strings and armour will be useless all together, because you only ever use armour as a read with either character.

Everytime you attempt to string stagger or do things like armor out of pressure, blockstrings, and frame traps, you're guessing and trying to read your opponent's follow up, that's all I'm saying.


I didn't say armor doesn't matter because it does, but Jade can definitely do similar things to Rain's pressure with her armor. Am I wrong in saying armoring through pressure and strings is based on making reads? If you guess wrong you waste a bar and might even eat a combo, blockstring or throw depending on character and if you guess right you get rewarded, no more no less.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If its all guessing and reads, which shouldnt be factored, then staggering strings and armour will be useless all together, because you only ever use armour as a read with either character.

then why do you factor the 50/50 of the RH cancels into the argument?

That is not really fair to say "my guesses count... you're don't"

 

[Slips]

Not very productive.

The ONLY other place you guys could be getting your rain experience from would be EMP Scar. You guys have NO Rain players on a good enough level other than him.

lol just like we had no KL's at a good level either right? You busted out Rain at Evo and got your back blown out by Krayzie. Appreciate the input and maybe some of it is valid but that whole argument of us not knowing the match up doesn't hold weight from you anymore.

We had dedicated Rain players. They all dropped him because he's just not that good. Kizzle, Scar and CDjr himself all quit Rain for better characters. Good enough for me.