MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[Vulcan Hades]

i like how 4 pages back many of you were arguing that he needed a nerf, in spite of it making zero sense. now that it may be true, everyone is like "oh no it wasn't ME who asked for that."

if you spent half as much time learning how to beat a move as you do crying about the move, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

The discussion was mainly about Kung's Spin being a bit too hard to properly punish for a lot of characters. Not about Kung Lao being OP.

Tom's thought on it was that the game is designed in such a way that "good zoners" like Stryker and Sindel aren't supposed to be great punishers. So in other words, "Punisher" is a new playstyle in MK9 that not every character can have the luxury of having. If a character is "too good" in footsies or zoning, then they make his mixup and punish options crap basically. Or at least that's what NRS was aiming for.

It's an interesting concept although so very flawed with such delicious irony.

I think they just watched the streams and they think there are too many Kung Lao players.

Just a guess....

lol, funny you would say that. I thought the exact same thing yesterday.

Kung Lao, Ermac, Smoke, Cyrax...

I think NRS's goal is pretty clear: penalize over-used characters. If this is true, then Scorpion and Noob are up next!

I kinda like that tbh.

 

[Porkchopexpress]

It seems to me its easier for them to nerf than to bring the lower teir up to par. Will they realease patch notes, or is it going to be a steath fix?

 

[Tom Brady]

the word on the street is that the patch will buff damage on some characters and scale it on others. word is that KL and a few other characters are getting some damage nerfs. KLs pressure game is still going to be there and yes he will still seem mindless but keep in mind the game is new so keep fighting it and find ways around it before you cry "PATCH!".

as far as cyrax goes, i lost because i fucked up. i had that first game and i.. me.. fucked up. there are things about cyrax that have to be changed like the damage reset glitch but the bomb trap i dont have a problem with.

there is no reason to drop any character because of a future patch unless you are using one of the block infs.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Is Baraka's corner loop being changed at all?

Did more testing about how much meter it gives Baraka and the opponent.

Landing 6 Knee and ChopChop

Knee->Chop->Knee->Chop->Knee->Chop->Knee->Chop->Knee->Chop->Knee->Chop


Baraka: Gains 1/2 of a bar
Opponent: Gains 2 bars

 

[THTB]

Damage drops are fine, so long as they don't fuck it up by basically reversing it.

 

[Dandy J]

i like how 4 pages back many of you were arguing that he needed a nerf, in spite of it making zero sense. now that it may be true, everyone is like "oh no it wasn't ME who asked for that."

if you spent half as much time learning how to beat a move as you do crying about the move, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

C'mon dude, reading comprehension. Learn it, love it, live it.

 

[oZii]

i like how 4 pages back many of you were arguing that he needed a nerf, in spite of it making zero sense. now that it may be true, everyone is like "oh no it wasn't ME who asked for that."

if you spent half as much time learning how to beat a move as you do crying about the move, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

All the hostility in this thread is ridicious lol.



If some of you stopped jumping in the middle of the discussion and picking out parts of what people are saying to so you can validate your claim that people are crying, then statements like what you said wouldn't be flat out wrong.

If you re-read what you wrote it makes no sense. We still have to practice up on the move cause they are just changing the damage not the recovery. If you really looked back 4 pages like you stated would see nobody was saying anything about adjusting the damage.

Ask yourself honestly do you really think NRS is making these adjustment because of this one thread? Come on lets be real for a second here.

Alot of Straw Man and Ad hominem arguments in here.

 

[THTB]

Is Baraka's corner loop being changed at all?

In Baraka's present state, it's kinda okay. But since we know he's getting buffs, this has got to go.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

In Baraka's present state, it's kinda okay. But since we know he's getting buffs, this has got to go.

Do you know what he's getting exactly? Heard he was getting some "love" from Paulo Garcia but that can mean anything really.

Hope he gets some good stuff. He needs it.

 

[THTB]

I have no idea, but I'd just wanna be on the safe side. Plus it'd fit in with the damage tweaking that is apparently planned.

 

[lobo]

Tom's thought on it was that the game is designed in such a way that "good zoners" like Stryker and Sindel aren't supposed to be great punishers. So in other words, "Punisher" is a new playstyle in MK9 that not every character can have the luxury of having. If a character is "too good" in footsies or zoning, then they make his mixup and punish options crap basically. Or at least that's what NRS was aiming for.

It's an interesting concept although so very flawed with such delicious irony.)

this is why i love MK9, and why so many people like me, with only 3d FG backgrounds, are drawn to the game. it is not a foreign concept at all. it lets people pick and choose characters/playstyles that they are comfortable with. this character variation is nothing new in soul calibur or tekken. it is also why i think it is ridiculous to wish for every character to be able to punish a move on roughly equal footing. some characters SHOULD be very good at punishing, and others should not. it is simply good game design.

@ dandy j...LOL. you are one of the people i was thinking about...crying KL needs a nerf and then trying to wash your hands of it. well good to know that i struck a bitter note of truth with ya. lololololol.

 

[Action Kungfu]

Damage drops are fine, so long as they don't fuck it up by basically reversing it.

Damage drops change risk/reward, by way of changing the reward to better balance and justify the risk or lack there of. The options still remain the same, but skewed risk/rewards are better balanced. On the flipside sometimes risks get changed(maybe a recovery standpoint who knows). But overall the options themselves, should remain.

This was essentially what some of us were arguing in favor of.

In Baraka's present state, it's kinda okay. But since we know he's getting buffs, this has got to go.

So am I correct in saying your viewpoint is in completeness of a character, and not dumbed down exploits of risk/reward?

I totally agree that that Baraka loop should go, and in place give him things that make him more complete and an original design(where he hopefully wouldn't end up being a poor mans version of another character).

 

[lobo]

In Baraka's present state, it's kinda okay. But since we know he's getting buffs, this has got to go.

i disagree about any loop repeating 3 times being ok at all. from a gameplay perspective, it is fiine, sure. it isn't really broken and he is still easily beatable. the problem is that in this day and age of streams and stream parties and increasing attention to fighting games...finally...it is imperative that they remain, first and foremost, entertaining to watch. seeing things like that make people shake their heads and call the game stupid, especially if they don't understand how it can be beaten. image is very very important right now as we push for a bigger pro FG circuit, bigger prizes, more sponsors and whatnot. looping shit like this has GOT to go no matter what.

 

[water]

the word on the street is that the patch will buff damage on some characters and scale it on others. word is that KL and a few other characters are getting some damage nerfs. KLs pressure game is still going to be there and yes he will still seem mindless but keep in mind the game is new so keep fighting it and find ways around it before you cry "PATCH!".

as far as cyrax goes, i lost because i fucked up. i had that first game and i.. me.. fucked up. there are things about cyrax that have to be changed like the damage reset glitch but the bomb trap i dont have a problem with.

there is no reason to drop any character because of a future patch unless you are using one of the block infs.

Thanks for the rumor update.

You are probably getting some heat about your reactions/statements after the match vs LIJoe's Cyrax, but people should understand that emotions run high in tournaments; we're all human. I appreciate the fact that you are admitting to mistakes like a reasonable adult. It's too bad that most stream monsters & keyboard warriors don't see nor understand this.

I hope Cyrax keeps his throw to bomb setups. It is what makes him unique & fun. Decreasing the damage would be fine if they think it is necessary, but removing it totally would change his gameplay too much.

 

[Luxus Nights]

I honestly don't know what to think of him. I read around the boards he might be upper mid (seems to be general consensus). The more I play him, I just don't see him being anything higher than mid. He's just so slow and again, no reliable wakeup. I'd like to see what a high level Shang looks like to be honest.

In my opinion Shang Tsung is some where low A class/tier, No where near S class/tier, when played right. When I say played right, I mean not just relying on his Zoning. His Zoning is only there to help get in a soul steals and guaranteed unbreakable damage when you have a stock of meter. Shang main game will be the use of the soul steal and setups that follow after it. Not to mention he has a nice 50/50 off a jump in punch, he can go high, low or go for a throw, soul steal keeps his unsafe combo's safe, and his over head is safe and can cancel into soul steal which makes it even safer lol.

We just need more time with the man, not to mention Shang is a character with a huge learning curve, so yeah its going to seem like he's not so good at first.

 

[THTB]

Damage drops change risk/reward, by way of changing the reward to better balance and justify the risk or lack there of. The options still remain the same, but skewed risk/rewards are better balanced. On the flipside sometimes risks get changed(maybe a recovery standpoint who knows). But overall the options themselves, should remain.

This was essentially what some of us were arguing in favor of.

Yeah, I know. The main reason I was saying don't touch him yet is because, like I said, nobody's punishing properly yet aside from a select few players. LI Joe was still dropping punishes on Kung Lao spin with Ermac...who gets a free lift after a blocked spin. Granted, it's still just a couple weeks into the game, but the knowledge is out there how punishable it is...nobody's applying it though. The way I see it, once those punishes start getting applied, it would've gotten a lot worse for Kung Lao, so the reward he currently gets could end up being VERY justified as time goes on. That's all.

Hell, I'm starting to have doubts about Sub now...I still think he's a really good character, but IMO it's becoming a lot more apparent that Sub's gonna be running into problems with characters that can teleport around clone relatively safely on reaction (Cyrax, Kung Lao, Raiden).

So am I correct in saying your viewpoint is in completeness of a character, and not dumbed down exploits of risk/reward?

I totally agree that that Baraka loop should go, and in place give him things that make him more complete and an original design(where he hopefully wouldn't end up being a poor mans version of another character).

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel.

 

[Sequel]

i like how 4 pages back many of you were arguing that he needed a nerf, in spite of it making zero sense. now that it may be true, everyone is like "oh no it wasn't ME who asked for that."

if you spent half as much time learning how to beat a move as you do crying about the move, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

You took the words right out of my keyboard.

 

[Krayzie]

Yeah, I know. The main reason I was saying don't touch him yet is because, like I said, nobody's punishing properly yet aside from a select few players. LI Joe was still dropping punishes on Kung Lao spin with Ermac...who gets a free lift after a blocked spin. Granted, it's still just a couple weeks into the game, but the knowledge is out there how punishable it is...nobody's applying it though. The way I see it, once those punishes start getting applied, it would've gotten a lot worse for Kung Lao, so the reward he currently gets could end up being VERY justified as time goes on. That's all.

Hell, I'm starting to have doubts about Sub now...I still think he's a really good character, but IMO it's becoming a lot more apparent that Sub's gonna be running into problems with characters that can teleport around clone relatively safely on reaction (Cyrax, Kung Lao, Raiden).


Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel.

First thing I did was practice the KL match up to figure out where I can punish, and be able to react to it properly.

I know I'm not the only one either. Kung Lao will get exposed soon!

 

[PsychoShot]

Is there a link to these nerfs/buffs that I can see?

Also, in my opinion, these are the top five:

Kung Lao
Scorpion
Ermac
Reptile
Kitana

 

[Porkchopexpress]

I like your list,but I would add Radien.

 

[Slips]

You can't really punish KL's hatspin on reaction, you really have to KNOW its coming. You have to concentrate on it so hard to punish it opens up his entire rush down. Not to mention the punishment changes depending on distance like the b+3,3 hatpin which pushes him back even farther than a straight up hatspin which most characters can't even dash forward jab to punish.

A damage tone down is nice. But I think keeping the damage but making it a little more punishable on reaction is a little better imo.

Make no mistake about it though, he needs to be toned down in some way shape or form.

PEACE

 

[Tom Brady]

0.0% chance sub-zero is not top 5.

in no order: Kl, raiden, sub, cage, NW, rept, cyrax .. those are the top 7 characters in the game.

 

[Porkchopexpress]

I just hope they are not so eager to please that they nerf before thinking of the consequences.

 

[THTB]

ey

0.0% chance sub-zero is not top 5.

in no order: Kl, raiden, sub, cage, NW, rept, cyrax .. those are the top 7 characters in the game.

That would probably be my current top 7 as well.

 

[DrDogg]

Well at least now I know who to point fingers at when NRS takes the fun out of this game bit by bit and sends it to a corner with a dunce cap on like it has been for the past decade.

GGs.

That's what I'm worried about. If you remove Cyrax's bomb trap, anything from Smoke (I don't even think he's top tier), and tone down Kung Lao, it's removing the fun from the game. 100% balance is not always fun. Look at MvC2.

I do not believe there should be any nerfs handed out until after Evo. If there are going to be pre-Evo changes, they should be limited to buffs only. It's much easier to determine the bottom tier characters and what they're lacking. The game is too new to say who's overpowered, and last time I checked, Kung Lao hadn't won any majors.

Kano most likely wasn't a buff but a fix, I always questioned why a kick to the opponent ankle was a high, Now Up Ball faster recovery is a buff and I don't know why they did that but I will not get annoyed for a freebie.

So is Nightwolf's f+3 going to be low now? It's almost identical to Kano's.