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MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

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It's easier to buff/nerf things by tweaking numbers. It is a lot hard to give/takeaway tools that make the char top tier.

For instance, lets say KL was deemed too powerful in his current state, and NRS decided to nerf his dmg by 25%. They just effectively made the character weaker but still having all the tools to be good. Now to compare to lets say having a char who has no tools, be buffed in a way that they do stupid amount of dmg but have no tools to setup that dmg. The character is still "bad" despite the buff.
They always can pull a Zangief kind of thing, super powerful when close and able to demolish your lifebar in a few specials (SPD for the Win), but with lots of problems to close the gap unless the player play smartly.

You can accomplish this by giving Baraka hard hitting specials and super armor to the moves that allow him to travel forward.... but maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea either.
 

RagingNight

Kombatant
They always can pull a Zangief kind of thing, super powerful when close and able to demolish your lifebar in a few specials (SPD for the Win), but with lots of problems to close the gap unless the player play smartly.

You can accomplish this by giving Baraka hard hitting specials and super armor to the moves that allow him to travel forward.... but maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea either.
The difference is Zangief was design to be like that from the very beginning. His whole conception of a character is designed to do stupid dmg IF he gets in. But its not like they gave him no tools to get in (green hands, lariat, solid poking tools).

On the other hand, by tweaking Barakas special to do stupid damage and super armor, it would actually break the game. In the sense that the very designed of the character is flawed if he needs those attributes to be good.
 

Vulcan Hades

Champion
Someone on this thread (D_Matt_Ma) suggested to give Baraka a simple 1% damage boost on all his blade normals and moves.

I don't see how that would be complicated to do and how that could break the game.

Right now Baraka can barely get 25-27% midscreen. With the 1% buff he could get 34% top, maybe 40% in the corner which is kinda average damage. Of course he would still suck because of his slow ass projectile and slow pokes but he would at least be a bit better.


RagingNight said:
On the other hand, by tweaking Barakas special to do stupid damage and super armor, it would actually break the game. In the sense that the very designed of the character is flawed if he needs those attributes to be good.
Except no one's asking for incredible damage buff or super amor. Simple armor on his ex chop chop and some invincibility on his ex/wake up blade spin would be great to have and also wouldn't break anything.
 

Yuna

Why am I so tall?
Not to defend anything but, as a counter to that argument I could point out how Capcom nerf and buf random things by chance, if not you can ask all the Gen players in SSFIV where they removed his multi strike loop which they saw coming but also nerfed him even more in areas where he was already lacking.
Japan does that all the time. Just look at how fucking awful the BlazBlue series turned out to be.
 

Lomyn

Snoctopus
I'd like to see Kitana's f4 not whiff on opponents who are crouch blocking.

I also would like to see launcher strings more punishable overall. Being able just to throw out attacks that lead into 40-50% damage combos without any fear of retaliation is questionable to me and upsets the risk/reward factor. Even Kung Lao's spin, despite being stupid fast, is punishable on block.

In regards to the Kung Lao spin change, I think rather than reducing the damage on his combos they should just make the attack not only have a tad more recovery, but alter its startup to be slower as well. Right now the move just comes out too fast. Make the invulnerable frames cut out after initial startup, so it can be stuffed if the Kung player reacts too late to pressure/jump-ins.
 

water

Noob
If all of the current "nerf patch" rumors are accurate, I will be a sad panda. :( This early in the game, NRS should only patch out infinites, glitches & broken tools. If they are compelled to release balance patches, I would much rather see Buffs for the lower 1/2 than Nerfs for the upper 1/2.
 
So to resume: Kung Lao, Ermac, Smoke and Cyrax are getting nerfed big time. Kano gets buffed. But Baraka, Sheeva, Quan Chi and Jax get nothing..

I kinda agree with Cyrax and Ermac's nerfs. Kung Lao and Smoke were a bit uncalled for and just too much imo. Kano didn't even need those buffs tbh. And Baraka, admittedly the worst character in the game, gets absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. Not even 1/2% damage buff. NRS really wants Baraka to be the new Dan I think.
Why should Smoke get nerfed? He's like Kitana, he needs the damage.

Some adjustments are uncalled for, if they remove options from characters, and make them only rely on a couple of tools and layers. Some stuff is too good where you'd only rely on it and exploit, whereas some things might end up too weak with the same result.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
If all of the current "nerf patch" rumors are accurate, I will be a sad panda. :( This early in the game, NRS should only patch out infinites, glitches & broken tools. If they are compelled to release balance patches, I would much rather see Buffs for the lower 1/2 than Nerfs for the upper 1/2.
Not all infinites/loops should be fixed/patched. Infinite isnt a bad word.
 
I would much rather see Buffs for the lower 1/2 than Nerfs for the upper 1/2.
It is better and more reliable to nerf then to buff generally speaking, atleast according to Blizzard, and even if prople rage Blizzard is pretty damn experienced with patching.

They Cyrax bomb abuse looked rather silly when I saw how strong it was. Barakas corner loop looks silly aswell, hope he gets some love soon though seeing as that loop is all he got going.
 
It is better and more reliable to nerf then to buff generally speaking, atleast according to Blizzard, and even if prople rage Blizzard is pretty damn experienced with patching.

They Cyrax bomb abuse looked rather silly when I saw how strong it was. Barakas corner loop looks silly aswell, hope he gets some love soon though seeing as that loop is all he got going.
I think there's an inherent problem with this threads whole discussion.

I think Cyrax's bomb abuse looks silly but if you remove it, then you remove a major thing that defines his character currently. So I agree with Dandy J's approach about Cyrax keeping that stuff, keep all of it, but adjusting it from being an exploit to just a great and viable tool and perk for Cyrax, but it shouldn't define him either cause if it does get removed then no one will use Cyrax anymore, cause he'd be boring cause that's all he has(which is a problem in itself if that's all he's got, you see?).

It's just like if it's true if they're removing Smoke's bomb otg. What's the point of that, it just removes some offensive depth from Smoke.

Characters should have reliable options and viable tools, not exploits. If characters have a lack of viable tools and reliable options, then exploits might be all they have and then people would have problems cause then a character would be boring or worthless(I think that's why people have come to accept some bullshit)... unless people like games with nothing but exploits.

I think part of this is because some players come from the school of thought where you pick a character and you want that character to be able to have all the tools to win matches, and you want the game to be more about player vs player where the character is a vessel or conduit to playing.

And others come from the school of thought where it's more of a character vs character thing, less emphasis on the players, more emphasis on character matchups, and you switch and choose characters to match up against the one your opponent picked.

If people don't understand school's of thought, then there's going to be a constant fundamental problem with any varying opinions in this thread, because no one is going to understand where someone else is coming from and any disagreement is going to be taken into extremes where people feel offended that someone wants odd things from the game.

Straight up though NRS pulled the trigger mad fast, almost as if they had these interesting nerfs in mind already.

Make more characters complete without exploits. If exploits are all a character has to begin with to even compete then there's a huge problem in the foundation already. And to remove that exploit, would be a problem in itself leaving a character even further from being complete. You can have a complete character, and you can an incomplete character that has exploits that give a false sense of completion. Some people might be used to the latter, I personally would much rather have the former in the first place and my posts always come from the mindset of the former.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
The Kung Lau nerf is happening way too fast. I agree that players need time to understand a match-up before committing to a knee-jerk reaction from the developers. This no different than the Sentinel nerf in MvC3.

But just like the Sentinel nerf, I don't see any major changes in how Kung Lau plays, he still has all the tools to win, it'll just take a little longer than it used to.
 

Dandy J

i can see all the amine
So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.
WTF that much of a damage reduction to spin? Might as well make it 100% safe on block at that point lol. I guess we'll see but that sounds extreme. Low Hat is crazy tho, but it doesn't need to be nerfed more than like 1 or 2 frames more recovery. Hopefully they don't go overboard.

Kung Lao (or anyone) doesn't need to get hit with a nerf bat, he just needs a couple things tweaked imo. Like people are saying it's super early and it's nuts to drastically change things. But in the end it's NRS's game and they can do whatever they want with it.

I think Cyrax's bomb abuse looks silly but if you remove it, then you remove a major thing that defines his character currently.
Yeah, exactly. The bomb trap is:

1. Probably a little too good and kinda silly
2. Really cool and unique
3. Totally awesome looking
4. Hella fun to do

So if they just take it out completely, they are taking a really cool and unique idea out of the game and throwing it away, which is a shame. What if we lived in a bizarro world where 2-in-1s in SF2 led to infinites, so Capcom completely nixed the idea of canceling altogether?
 

dookieagain

Last Bastion of Arcades
I've got to say at this point I'm hesitant to talk about any balance since it sounds like so much is changing.

Personally based on playing against the guy a lot, I think this is sort of over-nerfing Kung Lao. A simple addition of a few more frames on either end of spin and maybe a tiny massaging of the priority of ground hat (since it beats a lot of other projectiles and anti-projectile moves) would have been more than enough.

Cyrax bomb trap is another tricky situation. It don't really love guaranteed setups like that, and it's a ton of damage, but it is cool, I'm sure doing it is fun, and it gave Cyrax something really unique.

I suppose they could just reduce the damage on the whole thing to be more in line with maybe a combo+a throw rather than a combo and a half as it is now, but that'd involving changing a lot of properties on a lot of moves or setting up a weird situation with a lot of damage reduction that applies only to that set of moves.

Still I think it's a bit early to say that this kills everything Cyrax has going for him regarding bomb setups. Cyber Sub has several viable bomb setups and Tom Brady showed a pretty good corner trap with them last night, and his bombs are only about 60% as useful as Cyrax's.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
From what I heard, bomb trap isn't getting nerfed, but you're going to be able to tech the command throw easier (it currently can be teched, but the timing is SUPER strict). So command throw setups will be strong still, but not practically guaranteed off of JPs.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
From what I heard, bomb trap isn't getting nerfed, but you're going to be able to tech the command throw easier (it currently can be teched, but the timing is SUPER strict). So command throw setups will be strong still, but not practically guaranteed off of JPs.
If the timing is too easy it will be useless, since it's just a FP break. If it's possible to release block and then escape the throw on reaction, then why bother?
 

oZii

Mortal
Its obvious that NRS didn't listen to anything we said in this thread at all. Nobody here asked for any of these changes.


They must have some data from somewhere else. Maybe it's on the official boards or something. Or just their own internal testing.
 

Neclord

Kombatant
Its obvious that NRS didn't listen to anything we said in this thread at all. Nobody here asked for any of these changes.


They must have some data from somewhere else. Maybe it's on the official boards or something. Or just their own internal testing.
I think they just watched the streams and they think there are too many Kung Lao players.

Just a guess.... :p
 

Dandy J

i can see all the amine
From what I heard, bomb trap isn't getting nerfed, but you're going to be able to tech the command throw easier (it currently can be teched, but the timing is SUPER strict). So command throw setups will be strong still, but not practically guaranteed off of JPs.
Yeah I was messing with that the other day and the window has to be no more than 3 frames, maybe less lol.

If the timing is too easy it will be useless, since it's just a FP break. If it's possible to release block and then escape the throw on reaction, then why bother?
You can mix it up with forward throw, which is a 2 break. Sure you can break 1 every time but that's free throws all day right?
 

EvilNonsense

steals your stuff
It doesn't make sense to nerf this early in the game. Usually the one that gets nerfed, like Sentinel, is used in the majority of the games. I rarely see Kung Lao at all. What they really need to so is buff their servers.
 

lobo

woof.
i like how 4 pages back many of you were arguing that he needed a nerf, in spite of it making zero sense. now that it may be true, everyone is like "oh no it wasn't ME who asked for that."

if you spent half as much time learning how to beat a move as you do crying about the move, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
Kung Lao is still keeping every tool to stay top tier i dont get what all the crying is about.. they are trying to make the game Balanced, so that player b doesnt have to counter pick player 1 so he can have a chance to win in a tourney..

Kung Lao will still be a speed demon, kung players just have to work slightly harder. SLIGHTLY.. he will still be top 6..
 
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