Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Amplified$hotz]

Sektor is a good pick for Sub-Zero in my opinion.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

A detailed breakdown of the standing frames on Sub-Zero’s slide. If you’re a frame data nerd like me

I think NRS did this on purpose since projectiles are so slow in this game.

Very cool video

Also if you guys want more information on teching throws and defending against strike/throw mixups:

Very cool video, actually broke down the auto shimmy's in the game and how to OS them. That's awesome!

Do you know of any free app on phones that can do frame counting in any video?

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

@Amplified$hotz
Ok I'm gonna try to do more frame by frame breakdowns of moves, you inspired me with those posts.
Here's 100% Proof Subs Clone is punishable on reaction from full glow animation of clone out and visible to the exact frame block is active and it's over 30f but I'm being generous.
It's also possible it's 60f because my app may be running at 30FPS instead of 60FPS I think this because it only counts 4 frames from Subs D1 until it hits which would mean it's at 30FPS and is actually doubled the recorded result -0.5frames on each, so if it's 30FPS and not 60FPS each frame slide is actually 2 frames each making it 60 frames to react, but 30 is absolutely reactable, I honestly think it's 60f because it seems about the same exact timing as Quan's fully held B2(58f):

Let me know if you want me to do more, understand I'm working on my Android phone and don't really have amazing video editing software or a solid way to download PS5 clips to my Phone,
The Steps I'm taking:

1. I have to record on PS5,
2. edit in video editor on console,
3. upload to YT,
4. download to my Pixel 6 from YouTube
5. then put in FrameSkip App
6. to then screencapture "video record" the video in App frame by frame,
7. then Upload tha Frame by Frame clip to YouTube channel.

If you know of a different Android app that allows me to toggle 30/60FPS video playback in settings
Or if you have any information on how to improve these clips to be as accurate as possible please share.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

@Amplified$hotz
Ok I'm gonna try to do more frame by frame breakdowns of moves, you inspired me with those posts.
Here's 100% Proof Subs Clone is punishable on reaction from full glow animation of clone out and visible to the exact frame block is active and it's over 30f but I'm being generous.
It's also possible it's 60f because my app may be running at 30FPS instead of 60FPS I think this because it only counts 4 frames from Subs D1 until it hits which would mean it's at 30FPS and is actually doubled the recorded result -0.5frames on each, so if it's 30FPS and not 60FPS each frame slide is actually 2 frames each making it 60 frames to react, but 30 is absolutely reactable, I honestly think it's 60f because it seems about the same exact timing as Quan's fully held B2(58f):

Let me know if you want me to do more, understand I'm working on my Android phone and don't really have amazing video editing software or a solid way to download PS5 clips to my Phone,
The Steps I'm taking:

1. I have to record on PS5,
2. edit in video editor on console,
3. upload to YT,
4. download to my Pixel 6 from YouTube
5. then put in FrameSkip App
6. to then screencapture "video record" the video in App frame by frame,
7. then Upload tha Frame by Frame clip to YouTube channel.

If you know of a different Android app that allows me to toggle 30/60FPS video playback in settings
Or if you have any information on how to improve these clips to be as accurate as possible please share.

Things start to be reactable at 19 frames. So they should reduce the recovery by 11 frames more or less.

Fixing Sub-Zero is actually very easy.

 

[The Hex Man]

Ok I got a new potential Optimal from HTB with Lao Kameo, it bypasses HTB protection because I'm hitting low first both within a frame from eachother to get higher damage, if they where to block the low first it would automatically block the overhead B2 because of HTB protection.
But it's a true 50/50 HTB you can separate them 4 frames apart but it drops damage to 39%
If you do the 1 frame HTBs it will do 44% low to overhead and I guarantee they can't tell which is coming first, and you can do it OH to Low and it will guaranteed do 38% 1BAR, I think it's worth the risk of them blocking it cuz that's 44% and I can condition the overhead using Lao to make it safe:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1738471278019825971

You can do a slightly more damaging F12xxSlide ender instead of 4xxSlide but it's less than a % more, so for execution sake I'm calling this one Optimal cuz the scaling makes them the same. But as always if you have a more optimal version please share.
Note: the S4xxBF3 ender won't connect if you are on a huge stage or start combo from corner to corner, so use 3xxBF3 instead with a full dash into cancel.

Here's a meterless 29% from B34 using Lao hat:

I also found a Clone Setup, haven't really optimized yet, gonna figure out the perfect routes for more damage into setup, because if they try to attack, advance forward, throw projectiles anything but disjointed moves and Backdash/block, they get frozen, who knows if it'll be useful?

Let's not forget Lao gives great zoning, safety on buttons other than Armor gap on raw version, and Sub gets a HTB Vortex that can mixed OH to Low and Low to OH

I gotta say he's being carried hard but might be high Mid Tier maybe low S, he still has a bunch of weaknesses that I don't believe Kameos cover but I guess if you get one touch you can technically delete their health but he's unsafe doing actual HTBs cuz the only way for Sub to make Overhead safe with held Lao hat is to have it hit after the second hit of B2 hits which defeats the purpose of HTB's. If I was to judge Tier placements like some are above I'd have to compare what Sub gets vs S+ Tiers with the same Kameo and I gotta say Sindel gets a lot more and so do the rest of the Top 7 with their best Kameo
Since all those S Tiers have safe HTB's that loop I'd say that Sub Zero is strong with Lao but still high risk and medium reward, while I consider S+ Tiers Low risk with high reward.


@Amplified$hotz
@Eji1700
@mrapchem

Man that clone set-up

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Things start to be reactable at 19 frames. So they should reduce the recovery by 11 frames more or less.

Fixing Sub-Zero is actually very easy.

Ok update on clone reactability, it's definitely just over 60 frames from full clone visibility to the exact frame Sub can block.
I'm gonna do another with some adjustments to the program. I think it was a conversion error from downloading from YouTube to how it rendered in App.
But I checked it and it absolutely is more than 60 frames. On the first one that showed 30f had the poke hitting on frame 4 which is absolutely incorrect, so I retested and this new one shows poke hitting on frame 8 which adds up to 7f startup and 8th being the active.
I'll post it here:

It is 65 Frames from start to finish. But 61 frames from when clone is fully visible and glowing to when he can block.
Anyone who says Clone isn't reactable seriously needs to go into practice. That is quite possibly the easiest thing to react and punish in MK1 or possibly one of the most reactable Mortal Kombat moves since 2011(MK9)
It's definitely the worst Clone recovery Sub Zero has ever had that I can remember and I've been around since MK 1993.

What I'm wanting:
is Clone to be viable in high level play and more useable online. Where good players have to be on point to punish it, like they do with several mixups. He is very punishable on everything he does and once he's knocked down vs high tiers it's not in Subs favor. I don't think it's too much to ask for Clone to be less punishable and not braindead easy to punish on reaction.
If clone was 22f till Sub Zero could block I'd be fine with all his other flaws which is literally everything in his gameplan.

If you have any requests for frame by frame breakdowns, let me know.

The Sub Zero Slide has 6 frames of forced standing before he can low profile any high attack/fireball.

His Divekick is reactable and punishable with UpBlock even though it's a mid, there are several mids in the game that can be UpBlock punished including several Mid hitting Fatal Blows. I'm probably going to test the frame data on Divekick's punish window.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Things start to be reactable at 19 frames. So they should reduce the recovery by 11 frames more or less.

Fixing Sub-Zero is actually very easy.

Now that I've shown his clone is 60f until he can block from point of being visible. There's a huge issue. They would have to rework the Clone with an overhaul.
It might change it visually. But it's 40 frames before he even touches the ground and another 21f before he can block. The problem is he's punishable on reaction before he even lands and can't block until he's fully grounded and fully recovered.
So they would have to speed up the animation, make it around 15f of startup till recovery starts with active being on frame 5 or 6 lasting 2 seconds after he can block.
Then make recovery 7 frames that way it's 22f so it's technically reactable meterless but would be safe with bar and very safe from knockdown setups meterlessly from any conversion.
Online it would be hard to punish for most characters and they would have a 3frames past reactable. Kind of like Subs B2 is reactable offline at 24f but not always online.
60f is ridiculous!

What's your suggestions to fix Clone knowing it's 61f from clone fully visible to end of his recovery?

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

My video showing a frame by frame breakdown of instant air divekick punish window.

From jump to divekick connecting it's 46f so it's definitely reactable and makes sense why it's so easy for me to react to with hidden playback on random in practice.

I could only download the video at 30FPS 720p so it's only showing 30/60fps. The poke was 4 skips meaning the 7f poke is active on 8th frame making each tap on slide = 2 frames.

23*2 = 46 frames to react even if we took out the 6 frames of jump before Divekick is active and visible it's still 40 frames to react.

So I think we've established that Subs best tools are punishable on reaction.



If there's anything you want me to test frame by frame tag me and I'll add it to my list of breakdowns.

Twitter @Bulletz4MK1

YouTube @Bulletz4BreakfastFGC



I'm currently finding Sub Zero and Kitana tech

 

[OldManFGC]

I appreciate the work and time you're putting into this, but I feel like you're missing the point of these moves. That's like saying Slide is bad because it's punishable on block. Also, it's tight, but Divekick can be done closer to the ground than that.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I appreciate the work and time you're putting into this, but I feel like you're missing the point of these moves. That's like saying Slide is bad because it's punishable on block. Also, it's tight, but Divekick can be done closer to the ground than that.

It's 46f where I did it, it's 40f instant air either way it's reactable. Only place you can use Clone safely is on reaction to jump ins and combos, the Divekick is only used safely on wiff punish otherwise it's a huge risk for minimal reward.

I'm testing them this exact way because that's exactly the high and use of Divekick and Clone that Ninjakilla Xombat and K7 Showoff and Rebelo and Sikander used in all of their sets and online KL streams. My point is that the way they are using these two moves is very unsafe and clearly punishable on reaction.
In fact Ninjakilla thought they where safe until I showed him the frame by frame breakdowns of just how punishable they are.
The overwhelming use of Clone in high level sets is PokexxClone trying to catch mashing or as get off me tool but if they know the matchup and play optimal vs Sub they won't be mashing they will punish everything Sub does then have knockdown advantage to put him in the blender.
No one in their right mind after knowing Divekick is 40f to Upblock or backdash and 60 frames to punish Clone would think it's safe to use vs high level players

 

[Eji1700]

I appreciate the work and time you're putting into this, but I feel like you're missing the point of these moves. That's like saying Slide is bad because it's punishable on block. Also, it's tight, but Divekick can be done closer to the ground than that.

While I get what you're going for I really think that bulletz is proving what many of us have felt, which is that most players are just letting sub get away with murder and then claiming he's ok.

The threat of divekick means you can't use certain moves (reptile ball comes to mind), but once you STOP doing that, he can't do much with it. If you play a reactive game against sub, rather than trying to chase him down, his entire kit falls apart. For him to do any safe pressure it needs to be backed up by a kameo, and for him to do any kind of pressure that will open up a player who's labbed the match, it basically needs to be lao hat so you have the varied low/high mixup.

Dive kick is still good for punishing certain moves and checking their approach, but more people should be up blocking it when they're not already committed to a move.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Can Jax combo off of Sub-zero’s normal slide and ex slide with his back breaker ambush?

 

[LiangHuBBB]

2 things Ive noticed
f12 can avoid raiden's wakeup meter attack
if u get a knockdown vs smoke and he does his wakeup teleport
sub can make 1 step back and meter burn triple ice clone to catch him in the air

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Can Jax combo off of Sub-zero’s normal slide and ex slide with his back breaker ambush?

I’m not available to test for myself right now

 

[Amplified$hotz]

https://twitter.com/sikander555a/status/1743091193829892308?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

 

[The Highlander]

I’m not available to test for myself right now

From my testing, I could get jax to hit after regular slide pretty easily, didn't find a way to follow up on that though so you just get 110. The enhanced slide can combo into jax, and I'm sure there's more dmg out there but I was getting j12 j12 4 slide after for 230 pretty easily. I could only get him to connect by calling him preemptively before the enhanced slide.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

From my testing, I could get jax to hit after regular slide pretty easily, didn't find a way to follow up on that though so you just get 110. The enhanced slide can combo into jax, and I'm sure there's more dmg out there but I was getting j12 j12 4 slide after for 230 pretty easily. I could only get him to connect by calling him preemptively before the enhanced slide.

Thanks!

Does anyone have any Sub-Zero/Jax tech? I have a feeling this may be a decent combo.

 

[OldManFGC]

It's 46f where I did it, it's 40f instant air either way it's reactable. Only place you can use Clone safely is on reaction to jump ins and combos, the Divekick is only used safely on wiff punish otherwise it's a huge risk for minimal reward.

I'm testing them this exact way because that's exactly the high and use of Divekick and Clone that Ninjakilla Xombat and K7 Showoff and Rebelo and Sikander used in all of their sets and online KL streams. My point is that the way they are using these two moves is very unsafe and clearly punishable on reaction.
In fact Ninjakilla thought they where safe until I showed him the frame by frame breakdowns of just how punishable they are.
The overwhelming use of Clone in high level sets is PokexxClone trying to catch mashing or as get off me tool but if they know the matchup and play optimal vs Sub they won't be mashing they will punish everything Sub does then have knockdown advantage to put him in the blender.
No one in their right mind after knowing Divekick is 40f to Upblock or backdash and 60 frames to punish Clone would think it's safe to use vs high level players

If the point is that the way many people are using these moves is unsafe, I completely agree. However, that doesn't mean the moves don't have their place, which these posts seem to overshadow.

For Klone, even if it was only for combo extensions, armor breaks, and guaranteed anti airs, it's still great. Add into that situational moments like back flipping over low hat or stopping Raiden from escaping the corner with superman and you have a very useful move. People expect it to be a free return to neutral, but like you're showing, it's not designed that way. It's for other things instead.

As for divekick, there's very little risk in jumping back and using it when an opponent presses a button or tries to grab, especially not when Sub has multiple ways to alter his air trajectory. Also, the reward on divekick is extremely good. Being able to full combo off of divekick no matter where it hits the opponent is amazing. Jamie in SF6 would kill to be able to do the same.

 

[OldManFGC]

While I get what you're going for I really think that bulletz is proving what many of us have felt, which is that most players are just letting sub get away with murder and then claiming he's ok.

The threat of divekick means you can't use certain moves (reptile ball comes to mind), but once you STOP doing that, he can't do much with it. If you play a reactive game against sub, rather than trying to chase him down, his entire kit falls apart. For him to do any safe pressure it needs to be backed up by a kameo, and for him to do any kind of pressure that will open up a player who's labbed the match, it basically needs to be lao hat so you have the varied low/high mixup.

Dive kick is still good for punishing certain moves and checking their approach, but more people should be up blocking it when they're not already committed to a move.

I definitely agree that people should be up blocking divekick more and some top players might be thinking Sub is fine for the wrong reasons. But that doesn't mean that Sub isn't good for other reasons, which seems to be the implication here if not outright said. While it's true that the way to counter a reactive punish character like Sub is to not give him openings, the opponent doing that doesn't make Sub fall apart. He's a solid zoner, especially with the right kameo, and can force most opponents to come to him, thus creating openings for punishing. If the opponent tries to do the same to him, he can punish with slide or divekick. And anything that ends in divekick gives you great oki, which is one of Sub's strongest areas. Or, if you hit with divekick, you can end with a safe jump setup for even better pressure, neither of which require low hat, though of course you can use that if you like.

Perhaps I'm misreading the nature of these posts, and if so, my apologies to Bulletz and others. I just hope we don't lose sight of Sub's strengths while discussing his negatives if the goal is to win with him.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Sub-Zero might be the most unsafe character in NRS history. But that doesn’t mean great players will punish and react to everything.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I definitely agree that people should be up blocking divekick more and some top players might be thinking Sub is fine for the wrong reasons. But that doesn't mean that Sub isn't good for other reasons, which seems to be the implication here if not outright said. While it's true that the way to counter a reactive punish character like Sub is to not give him openings, the opponent doing that doesn't make Sub fall apart. He's a solid zoner, especially with the right kameo, and can force most opponents to come to him, thus creating openings for punishing. If the opponent tries to do the same to him, he can punish with slide or divekick. And anything that ends in divekick gives you great oki, which is one of Sub's strongest areas. Or, if you hit with divekick, you can end with a safe jump setup for even better pressure, neither of which require low hat, though of course you can use that if you like.

Perhaps I'm misreading the nature of these posts, and if so, my apologies to Bulletz and others. I just hope we don't lose sight of Sub's strengths while discussing his negatives if the goal is to win with him.

Sub-Zero isn’t a solid zoner and he can’t force most players to come to him. He actually gets outzoned in a few matchups. Or punished for zoning in others.

No one at a high level struggles to get in on Sub-Zero. The tricky part about fighting him is that he punishes counter poking/footsies pretty well and creates good traps.

Sub-Zero doesn’t have great oki either. You can just block on wake-up unless he has a kameo that offers him a mixup like Kung Lao. However grabbing can open up a strike throw game but people like to micro duck in this game.

 

[OldManFGC]

Sub-Zero isn’t a solid zoner and he can’t force most players to come to him. He actually gets outzoned in a few matchups. Or punished for zoning in others.

No one at a high level struggles to get in on Sub-Zero. The tricky part about fighting him is that he punishes counter poking/footsies pretty well and creates good traps.

Sub-Zero doesn’t have great oki either. You can just block on wake-up unless he has a kameo that offers him a mixup like Kung Lao. However grabbing can open up a strike throw game but people like to micro duck in this game.

I win most of my games by doing the things you're saying he can't do. I think if more people explored his zoning, counter zoning, and pressure on opponent's wake up, they'd have an easier time with him. I will say though, Sonya's square wave is a big part of why he can be such an effective zoner. Plus, her high damaging throw, which is better for strike/throw, leaves the opponent much closer than other kameo throws, which makes it easier to continue pressure. Our difference in opinion might just be as simple as which kameo we're playing.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I win most of my games by doing the things you're saying he can't do. I think if more people explored his zoning, counter zoning, and pressure on opponent's wake up, they'd have an easier time with him. I will say though, Sonya's square wave is a big part of why he can be such an effective zoner. Plus, her high damaging throw, which is better for strike/throw, leaves the opponent much closer than other kameo throws, which makes it easier to continue pressure. Our difference in opinion might just be as simple as which kameo we're playing.

It's because he's High Risk low reward. We're not saying he's unusable or he can't win. I win far more often online in KL than I do offline at locals with him, mostly because the vast majority of online players don't lab Sub matchup.

Even basic things like take ng his turn back with poke into jailed high is a huge risk in this game. He has Gap's in everything and it doesn't even require meter to blow it up. His frame data on staggers is not the best because he doesn't have buttons or dash speed/distance that fully utilize a S2 stagger especially S1.
His F1 being 15f is pretty bad to take turns and only really good at a distance and leaves him at -7 which is punishable by 3 characters but more dominantly gives higher tier characters the pressure to mix him. When that's basically his best normal it's not very strong considering his specials are punishable, unsafe and 1/2 are reactable. They have uses but not for offense which is dominant in MK1

Xombat has him in trash tier with a small possiblity of winning vs S+ Tiers. This is part of why Sub isn't placing Top 8 in offline majors. I know early on he made it out of pools in a Online small tournament but Sub is a completely different character in this trash Netcode they are claiming is Rollback. Feels like it's rolling back 15 frames with it's instability, not the 3f static we where used to from MK11 and late MKXL. For example his overhead is sometimes not reactable online when 99% of the time it's very reactable offline for good players.

The things I'm seeing Ninjakilla doing blows my mind how his opponents aren't punishing the poke into clone that's a Full Second to punish 3X past reactable. But then I remember literally nobody is making Top 8's offline and the loyalists are a very niche group who actually stick with Sub and do well, so why would Xombat, Dragon, Rewind or anyone lab the matchup?
Every stream of pro players even top players say they are unfamiliar with the Sub Zero matchup and for good reason.

 

[Eji1700]

I’ll pile on and say I’m winning with utterly trash play and it doesn’t mean much because I’m still trash.

This is not to say anything about any one else’s skills. The part that’s annoying is that having been decent at other fighting games, if I can go in and lab serious counters to everything I’m doing, on reaction no less, I feel like I’m training bad habits which will catch up with you. Hell ironically the mashing fest at the bottom of the pile shows subs holes more because people throw out armor whenever, not just when it looks good (which is the funny part of clone since it looks like he recovers earlier).

Honey bee had a full set go up vs lkm and it felt really telling. ESPECIALLY when you know sub well enough to know the things he missed/didn’t punish and see lkm getting away with raw overhead in lag.

The simple truth is that sub can absolutely climb up to elder on league but it’s grating to see so many people say the game is really well balanced or that subs bottom but just A- or whatever their weird list says, when offline in person he’s not making top 8 AT ALL. “Not tournament viable” isn’t b tier in my eyes.

It’s getting played off as if every sub just isn’t loyal enough or something but I don’t see anyone actually explaining how to work around his flaws. If someone wants to take him to a major go for it, but those who have, who put the time in, aren’t getting to the top.

It’s extra annoying because mk1 has so much fun stuff you can do with almost anyone else (quan having similar major issues) but all the fun stuff with sub feels like casual knowledge checks.

 

[rifraf]

I'm currently Demi God in KL and in my experience, Sub-Zero and Scorpion players are by far the most sweaty try-hards. They really need to work extra hard while having a seemingly infinite amount of patience. Some, could even call them lame but I have no issue at all playing against them.

Scorpion has high dmg so if he touches you it can be death. Sub-Zero on the other hand doesn't have that. He also kind of needs to come close to do any dmg because if you try zoning him out from afar, there's not much he can do. His iceball is a joke, deadly vapors is useless from afar, and good players won't random slide because they know it's death. His ice klone punch is a good tool but it doesn't go fullscreen.

Sad-Zero is sad