Sub-Zero General Discussion

[mrapchem]

Btw if anyone didn't catch them during the Kombat Kast these seem to be the Sub buffs so far

• Deadly Vapors (Meterless) extends combos now
• Ice Clone is easier to combo into off of grounded strings
• Ice Ball is now faster (this one is less likely since it wasn't shown in the buff montage but in the Post-Kast gameplay footage)

I hope that the Ice Bal is actually faster because it looks to be roughly the same speed to me. Even a few frames difference would allow us to combo into finally.

 

[Eji1700]

I hope that the Ice Bal is actually faster because it looks to be roughly the same speed to me. Even a few frames difference would allow us to combo into finally.

That's the part that makes me wonder, because they seem hell bent on stopping that.

 

[Gelato]

Any new first hour tech or combo route with the small buff in this "Takeda" patch?

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Ant new first hour tech or combo route with the small buff in this "Takeda" patch?

Looks like it still scales too much

 

[Eji1700]

Looks like it still scales too much

The deadly vapors stuff? The fact he can do it at all meterless now still strikes me as useful.

Edit-

From what i'm seeing it's at least a "meterless" 30% with a kameo use, and means he can now route "meterlessly" into his setups.

Heck the damage isn't even that bad if you keep it true meterless and just route into slide

 

[OldManFGC]

Meterless combos only work in the corner, with vapor or klone, unless I'm missing something. It's nice but I doubt it's game changing, unfortunately.

 

[CanoCano]

Meterless combos only work in the corner, with vapor or klone, unless I'm missing something. It's nice but I doubt it's game changing, unfortunately.

Can't he combo into F123 or B34 midscreen?

 

[Eji1700]

Can't he combo into F123 or B34 midscreen?

He can absolutely combo midscreen. I don't know if he can do it off every string, but F12 vapors can be combo'd out of with at least his 1 string. I think there's a microwalk/dash for it to work.

 

[rifraf]

Did SZ got buffed or got quality of life changes?

 

[Eji1700]

Did SZ got buffed or got quality of life changes?

Ignoring all the Kameo changes, from the main patch notes topic:

Sub-Zero

• Heavy Toe (Front Kick) has 2 more frames of hit advantage - No idea where this helps. 2 Frames is an oddly specific number.
• Ice Klone has an increased hit region, & significantly increased hit region when opponent is in a combo - Can combo into this from grounded combos now. At the very least F12 xx clone in corner now freezes.
• Deadly Vapors no longer enables autoblock the first time in a combo - Can now use meterless vapors to combo. We'll see how great this is in the long run but at the bare minimum sub can now get his slide from a meterless confirm.
• Fixed Ice Klone Charge hit region lingering after connecting with one character - Also no idea.

 

[OldManFGC]

Nvm, new klone changes all his combos.

 

[OldManFGC]

Can't he combo into F123 or B34 midscreen?

I got vapors to work midscreen with Frost Wall but otherwise no. Maybe there's a really tight microdash like is being said into 12? If so, kinda ridiculous he's got to work so hard to get it. Corner into 12~klone is good though. And klone midscreen to extend most of his bnbs is nice. Not sure if it's enough to really change his tier though.

 

[OldManFGC]

He can absolutely combo midscreen. I don't know if he can do it off every string, but F12 vapors can be combo'd out of with at least his 1 string. I think there's a microwalk/dash for it to work.

It must be pretty tight because I wasn't getting it. Only with Frost Wall. But if he can, cool

Edit: Okay, yeah, my bad. He can do it off of F12 into 12 fairly easily for a bit more damage and meter build. He can also do it off of single hits midscreen like 1, 3,. or 4, but most of those create more damage scaling than just ending in slide so not worth it. And you'd only do it off of F12 if you don't have other options because, again, damage scaling. So, the best would be if your F12 pushes them into the corner enough you could klone after microdash 12 for a bigger combo. So, some utility for sure but not life changing. Not as much as the klone change I don't think.

Thanks for the heads-up! And again, my bad, all.

 

[Eji1700]

It must be pretty tight because I wasn't getting it. Only with Frost Wall. But if he can, cool

Just for ref, about 4:54 into this vid

 

[OldManFGC]

Just for ref, about 4:54 into this vid

Yup, I got it. Thanks!

 

[Eji1700]

Shit I want to test when I get some time(ignoring all the kameo stuff to dive into):

1. Can we meterlessly route into EX clone setups? I believe in the corner the answer is yes, which means you can do 1 bar EX clone setups rather than requiring 2 or a kameo.

2. What does sub get off EX D2? He's very likely to want to dump the bars into damage even before you get into all the other advantages it has.

3. Wat is the purpose of the 2 extra frames of hitstun on 3? The best guess i've got is cancel into vapors or maybe clone situations? Curious what the hell their intent was with that.

Edit:

Forgot 4. Check if the new clone hitbox means we don't have characters sticking 2/3rds of their fucking body through the clone and getting away with it.

 

[CanoCano]

3. Wat is the purpose of the 2 extra frames of hitstun on 3? The best guess i've got is cancel into vapors or maybe clone situations? Curious what the hell their intent was with that.

But also the autoblock frames on it remain the same, he can't combo S3 into Ice Ball even tho he technically has enough hit advantage for it
So i'm not sure if it's for comboing into Clone or Deadly Vapors, maybe for resets?????

 

[mrapchem]

So, some thoughts about Sub-Zero after the patch:

a.) The Deadly Vapors buff seems to be mediocre at best. It's somewhat tight mid-screen and scales combo damage terribly. In the corner is better, but it's still not great.

b.) The Klone buff is actually amazing. Now he has a true AA combo, along with being able to get lots of air juggles from Klone that previously weren't possible.

c.) Klone buffs make him much better with Kameos like Goro, Scorpion, Sonya, Mavado and Khameleon.

d.) His corner game is greatly enhanced because of the Klone buff also. It's possible to loop the Klone with specific Kombos and Kameos. I'll be putting out a video of this shortly.

e.) The buff that he actually needs - a much faster Ice Ball - still needs to find its way to our boy. He doesn't have a full-screen presence unless his Kameo has a projectile. Plus, his combo routes from the new Deadly Vapors would be more useful.

 

[OldManFGC]

So, some thoughts about Sub-Zero after the patch:

a.) The Deadly Vapors buff seems to be mediocre at best. It's somewhat tight mid-screen and scales combo damage terribly. In the corner is better, but it's still not great.

b.) The Klone buff is actually amazing. Now he has a true AA combo, along with being able to get lots of air juggles from Klone that previously weren't possible.

c.) Klone buffs make him much better with Kameos like Goro, Scorpion, Sonya, Mavado and Khameleon.

d.) His corner game is greatly enhanced because of the Klone buff also. It's possible to loop the Klone with specific Kombos and Kameos. I'll be putting out a video of this shortly.

e.) The buff that he actually needs - a much faster Ice Ball - still needs to find its way to our boy. He doesn't have a full-screen presence unless his Kameo has a projectile. Plus, his combo routes from the new Deadly Vapors would be more useful.

My thoughts as well: Vapors is meh outside of the corner but Klone buff is pretty darn amazing. So many of his combos change or are opened up or at the very least much easier (e.g. comboing off of Slide with Scorpion).

I don't know how much this changes his viability, but it's definitely all for the better.

 

[FrozenG3oX]

I'll add my two cents. Deadly vapors buff is almost useless midscreen, prove me wrong whatever.
Clone combos are nice, but they seem to dissapear on block on certain distances, again prove me wrong.

After Sonya leg grab its a bit hard to hit the b2 ( online ), so now you can f12-clone,-jump 12,-4 slide and its almost the same damage.

There are many new combos with the clone, but some of them basically give the same damage as before so there no points.
Corner combos meterless with the clone are good.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

Sub Zero can get maximum pain and gain buff with advantage off b2

 

[Eji1700]

Dunno if it's new, or useful, but while screwing around to see if there's anything from the standing 3 buff, it seems like you can get

AA 3 xx vapors, 2,1 xx slide

I doubt that wasn't possible before given +2 frames of advantage doesn't strike me as making a difference when anti airing.

As for EX d2, looks like you get a j2,1, clone and all the routing that entails. Looks like just shy of 40% for 2 bars, probably over if you spend all 3. I'm sure there's better routes as well, and might be worth dropping some damage for the setup if you're doing an early round callout.

Edit-

EX d2 CAN have the jump cancelled. I've, accidentally, done EX d2 xx vapors (maybe Ex vapors) a few times. Might be possible to just cancel straight into clone or something? I doubt it's optimal, but if someone with better execution than me wants to explore it, it's there.

 

[rifraf]

I enjoy labbing SZ but playing the character is a different story.

I don't understand why his b2 is one move. I know you can cancel it before the second hit but it's still not good imo. I would make b2 a single overhead hit that is safe on block and 2in1 cancelable. Introduce b21 that hits mid and it's also 2in1 cancelable. And b22 that is an overhead launcher like the current b2, but it won't be cancelable. I think making it a string would give the character more options since the power of the move will be more spread out.

I also find it ridiculous he has an almost 40 frame projectile. His clone situation is very well documented. 5 sec cooldown, 1 sec clone makes no sense.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

I also find it ridiculous he has an almost 40 frame projectile. His clone situation is very well documented. 5 sec cooldown, 1 sec clone makes no sense.

40 frame startup AND a high is still crazy in my opinion. Don't think the character is as bad as some of the downplayers suggest but ice ball is legitimately horrible in its current state. The EX version isn't even useful considering a lot of chars can just throw a projectile to interrupt the startup anyways. Honestly if they just buff his ice ball somehow and maybe tweak the frame data on his jab string a bit I would never complain about the character again.

 

[Eji1700]

Some more sub stuff (again not 100% sure if this is new patch only or just not really seen/talked about)

3 xx vapors now combos midscreen into:
f1,2 (tight)
2,1
3,4
b3,4
b4

and in the corner all of the above are easier, along with-
4,4 (tight)
1,2
d2

Of course if this didn't already exist when the fuck you'd ever 3 xx vapors is a damn good question. Probably only some weird edge case 10 frame only punish where for some reason you didn't want 2,1? I guess this gives you a way to get into b3,4 mid screen for a launcher for kameo's like mavado, but fuck i'm stretching here...

Also as someone who dipped for awhile there and just does not have the mental stack for Khameleon/Tremor, who's the next best kameo?

I rocked goro on launch but came to the conclusion that sub's kit is so lackluster without a kameo he just cannot afford to have someone who takes a week and a half to recharge. I assume sonja/kano/sareena are still fine. Anyone i'm missing?