Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Madk3dman]

Anyone has ideas what to do on delay wake up doing Lao vortex.. I’m liking cyrax a little more cause you get a lot more out of each touches and the 20 percent grab combos make sub a nice strike throw charachter. Every slide check is like 36 percent and you can take meter if needed to stop breaker .. what you guys having succes with?

 

[The Highlander]

Anyone has ideas what to do on delay wake up doing Lao vortex.. I’m liking cyrax a little more cause you get a lot more out of each touches and the 20 percent grab combos make sub a nice strike throw charachter. Every slide check is like 36 percent and you can take meter if needed to stop breaker .. what you guys having succes with?

Big fan of sareena from quite early on, the extensions on combos carry his dmg into the rest of the cast's territory. Meter drain in the corner is good with his combos because they're pretty long. And she gives him neutral control.
But before sareena I was quite big on goro, he gives launches off of the low and can make the overhead safe (kinda). Plus your slide turns into an armored launcher. But the health dip is rough, and the dmg is lacking. Sonya is a sort of upgrade on the goro play style with better forward throw, more health, and the same launch off of the low and enhanced slide but with more dmg. And her energy blast is a better tool than punchwalk. She doesn't keep you safe off of anything though

Tbh I haven't messed with cyrax much, but the bomb set ups and slide conversions make him seem pretty good with sub.

 

[Madk3dman]

Sub lack of pressure I find myself throwing often and 20 and 30 percent throws help alot .. plus the 40 and 50 percent corner combos are nice as well

 

[Madk3dman]

You also get armor launcher and combos off of low

 

[Madk3dman]

Is Lao even worth it if they just delay wake up? I guess you can alter timing for delay just seem like cyrax gives a lot of tools.. only missing sareena space control and safety ..

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Khameleon is very strong for Sub, she gives him crazy mix and multiple mind games:

Mileena: gives him mix off F123xxAirSai's/F12xxBallRoll
B34xxAirSai's/B3xxBallRoll

Jade: gives him very good blockstring pressure and mix, you can do B3/B2 into Glaives then do B3/B2 again while poking the spot after first glaive they can hit Khameleon (if they are fast and know it's coming) but you can also backdash punish. Jade Glow has real projectile immunity unlike Sub/Motaro. Jade gives crazy damage (over 40% midscreen and it's hot confirmable from B3/B2 mix)

Kitana Disguise: gives SubZero so much mind games, safety and even mix. Her Fan Toss(R1) is -6 on block and double hitting close up and a MID. This makes his B2 a safe launcher and his Gaps safe if you bait the Armor gap in B34/21 and Fan Toss breaks armor. Fan Toss launches midscreen but doesn't have high damage follow-ups but in the corner you get big boy meterless damage. Fan Lift is probably one of the best moves in the game, you can cancel recovery of anything! Not just cancel recovery but make a mind game with the distance you fly. You can combo off F12xxFanLift if you use IA Divekick, or do a frame trap. Fan Lift makes your special moves on block completely safe and steals turn depending on what you do, Slide, Clone, Divekick all safe using Fan Lift.

Khameleon is 200% Sub Zero's Strongest Kameo if you can master her. It's easy to Switch to the variation you want. Hold R1 right as the Kameo move is ending. So do B3/B2 into Jade Glaives and Hold R1 and your instantly Kitana Disguise and can blockstring pressure into Fan Lift shenanigans or -6 on block Fan Toss that launches on hit and if you hold R1 your in Mileena and get Air Sai's for easy combo follow up into B34/B3xxBallRoll or F123xxAirSai's/F12xxBallRoll mix.
Everything she has comes back instantly and all variations are very strong. Every variation has launchers so there's always damage and setplay into mind games or 50/50's.

To my knowledge Sub Zero is one of the few characters that doesn't get Throw Combos with Khameleon but he gets plenty. I actually feel like he's not trash using Khameleon. More like maining Khameleon with Sub as a backup.

 

[mrapchem]

Khameleon is very strong for Sub, she gives him crazy mix and multiple mind games:

Mileena: gives him mix off F123xxAirSai's/F12xxBallRoll
B34xxAirSai's/B3xxBallRoll

Jade: gives him very good blockstring pressure and mix, you can do B3/B2 into Glaives then do B3/B2 again while poking the spot after first glaive they can hit Khameleon (if they are fast and know it's coming) but you can also backdash punish. Jade Glow has real projectile immunity unlike Sub/Motaro. Jade gives crazy damage (over 40% midscreen and it's hot confirmable from B3/B2 mix)

Kitana Disguise: gives SubZero so much mind games, safety and even mix. Her Fan Toss(R1) is -6 on block and double hitting close up and a MID. This makes his B2 a safe launcher and his Gaps safe if you bait the Armor gap in B34/21 and Fan Toss breaks armor. Fan Toss launches midscreen but doesn't have high damage follow-ups but in the corner you get big boy meterless damage. Fan Lift is probably one of the best moves in the game, you can cancel recovery of anything! Not just cancel recovery but make a mind game with the distance you fly. You can combo off F12xxFanLift if you use IA Divekick, or do a frame trap. Fan Lift makes your special moves on block completely safe and steals turn depending on what you do, Slide, Clone, Divekick all safe using Fan Lift.

Khameleon is 200% Sub Zero's Strongest Kameo if you can master her. It's easy to Switch to the variation you want. Hold R1 right as the Kameo move is ending. So do B3/B2 into Jade Glaives and Hold R1 and your instantly Kitana Disguise and can blockstring pressure into Fan Lift shenanigans or -6 on block Fan Toss that launches on hit and if you hold R1 your in Mileena and get Air Sai's for easy combo follow up into B34/B3xxBallRoll or F123xxAirSai's/F12xxBallRoll mix.
Everything she has comes back instantly and all variations are very strong. Every variation has launchers so there's always damage and setplay into mind games or 50/50's.

To my knowledge Sub Zero is one of the few characters that doesn't get Throw Combos with Khameleon but he gets plenty. I actually feel like he's not trash using Khameleon. More like maining Khameleon with Sub as a backup.

I literally made a quick video about this exact combo yesterday. You are absolutely correct about this. Excellent video.

Also, I will be making a guide for you on how to do voiceover for your PS5 videos.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I literally made a quick video about this exact combo yesterday. You are absolutely correct about this. Excellent video.

Also, I will be making a guide for you on how to do voiceover for your PS5 videos.

That will be great and maybe I can make breakdown videos and tech/character guide videos. Showing people a character without overhead and low mix can easily open good players up with staggers, shimmy, strike throw and movement and setplay.

 

[OldManFGC]

Been tied up in other things for a minute, but glad to see we can agree on Khameleon being great for Sub . Btw, you can combo off of back throw with Fan Lift. Instant air Dive Kick after Sub finishes the freeze to the chest, S4~Slide nets you about 1 more % than regular thrown and much better oki. Another Khameleon call gets you into the 15-16% range and a third call (which they'll probably eventually nerf) and/or some bar spent, gets you around 20%.

The really amazing thing to me though is being able to combo off of regular Slide and canceling into lift on block like has been shown. Plus, of course, that every version of Khameleon is good for Sub and lets him combo off of all of his strings meterlessly. All in all, easily his best Kameo now.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Hey! Thought I’d say hey and see how the sub zero community was doing post these few patches.
I’ve played a bit but what’s everyone think of SZ after the recent patch etc?

 

[Ptehu]

Sub + Khameleon seems quite ok (on casual level at least). Definitely more variety of combos, no matter which variation of Khameleon is currently available. Does it make him a top tier? Nope, but it's much more fun.

 

[OldManFGC]

Hey! Thought I’d say hey and see how the sub zero community was doing post these few patches.
I’ve played a bit but what’s everyone think of SZ after the recent patch etc?

Patch didn't change him much, but Khameleon makes him amazing, imo. Of course, Khameleon is doing the same for other characters because she's rather wild/broke, but if all they end up nerfing is her recharge time, she still ends up giving Sub pretty much everything you want. Just played offline locally with her against my usual crew and it felt great.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Patch didn't change him much, but Khameleon makes him amazing, imo. Of course, Khameleon is doing the same for other characters because she's rather wild/broke, but if all they end up nerfing is her recharge time, she still ends up giving Sub pretty much everything you want. Just played offline locally with her against my usual crew and it felt great.

Very nice, and hope you guys had fun playing at your local!

 

[PrinceGoro]

Dont know how many of you still play him with sareena heres a 402.59 damage meterless combo using 1 kameo bar,utilizing the b2 changes from a few patches ago.

f12××b+kameo,dash b2,b2,j21,land klone,deep jump 21,micro dash 3xxslide.

seconde b+2 must be done as soon as possible so the clone freez happens very high of the ground and you can do a very deep jump hitting j21 very late.

 

[Jynks]

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Dont know how many of you still play him with sareena heres a 402.59 damage meterless combo using 1 kameo bar,utilizing the b2 changes from a few patches ago.

f12××b+kameo,dash b2,b2,j21,land klone,deep jump 21,micro dash 3xxslide.

seconde b+2 must be done as soon as possible so the clone freez happens very high of the ground and you can do a very deep jump hitting j21 very late.

Nice! Will give this ago after work

 

[Savage8-8]

So there is still a lot explore with sub and these Kameos but after playing him since launch I feel like Sonya is his best Kameo. Gives the best meterless damage off of the overhead and low. I just haven't seen setups with other Kameos to make me switch. I would love to switch to cyrax but it only pays off in the corner. Mid screen isn't good with sub

 

[ConeOnBricks]

So there is still a lot explore with sub and these Kameos but after playing him since launch I feel like Sonya is his best Kameo. Gives the best meterless damage off of the overhead and low. I just haven't seen setups with other Kameos to make me switch. I would love to switch to cyrax but it only pays off in the corner. Mid screen isn't good with sub

I'm not the best Sub Zero player around by any means but this is a topic I've definitely been wanting to discuss with people. Personally I've found it very difficult to open people up with his base kit overhead/low mix. At higher ranks it seems people can reliably react to B2 (on PC at least) so I've pretty much phased it out of my gameplan entirely and my kameo choices lately kinda reflect that. That being said I agree Sonya kameo is really solid for him because charged projectile covers some of the blind spots left by his base projectiles and makes approaching much easier. Some additional perks include neutral kameo letting him combo off EX reversal slide, 140 damage forward throw, and armored reversal leg grab.
For the past few months I've been running Frost and I think she's got a lot to help out his kit a bit. It's definitely a bit jarring running a summon-only kameo at first but I genuinely think he gets enough mileage from the moves to make it work. Forward kameo spike carpet is fairly slow but compliments his zoning nicely because it lets Sub full combo people for trying to disrespect his slow ice ball/df4 in fireball wars mid screen. Frost tanks an enemy projectile hit and the carpet usually still comes out, hitting the opponent in a punishable state of projectile recovery. Really useful against Reptile players trying to spam forceball midscreen. Forward kameo also gives him a meterless combo starter which I've come to value highly on this character. Neutral kameo is +4 with enough pushback midscreen to essentially reset neutral. There's obviously a gap whenever you use it but no opponent is realistically going to spend all their meter/kameo gauge interrupting it every time. Considering Sub has no plus frames on block other than stand 4 I think this is a nice tool to have. Leaves the opponent in a good range for a bf2 check if they try mashing afterwards. In the corner you're left close enough to d1 check. Back kameo is an extremely good setup tool since Sub can get it out without sacrificing too much damage during his BnBs. Miscreen starter->EX df4->dash cancel b2 b2->j21->ground klone->slight backstep back kameo is the main setup I use. For oki you can do a dash up grab that will freeze the opponent and give you enough time to dash up stand 4 special cancel into whatever you want. If you think they're going to duck the grab you can f1. The ice orb will combo off the f1 and allow you to full b2 combo. If set up correctly both the throw and mid will connect just barely before the orb so that either option breaks reversals with one hit of armor. Delay wakeup avoids the setup but you can just delay your throw/mid on read to combat that. The orb still chases down so even if they delay wakeup and you mistime your meaty they can't really press anything without getting blown up. Really fun setup potential. The held neutral kameo is the least useful move but it's still good for chipout occasionally. Very interruptible startup but it looks similar enough to neutral kameo startup that you can sometimes catch people trying to interrupt the punchwalk with normal neutral kameo.
I think Goro is also a really good choice for him because it helps plug his weak base pressure and meterless damage. Because he has essentially no plus frames Sub basically has to stagger everything minus which makes him liable to well-timed interrupts. Goro neutral kameo gets Sub very respectable damage from reversal EX slide which I think helps his pressure by letting him threaten slide as an option after finishing strings. Threat of reversal slide spam might discourage people from pressing after him minus frames which in turn lets him get more fraudulent turn stealing. Obviously this also helps his defense too. Sonya serves a similar function but I think Goro back kameo is a more consistent meterless launcher than Sonya's tools. Goro also lets Sub tack on a potential extra 90 damage in the corner after his kombos by ending a combo in slide, performing neutral kameo neutral kameo stomp summon right as Sub is about to slam the opponent on the ground, and then meatying with f12 klone. If the opponent gets hit by f12 the stomp will actually combo into ice klone allowing for extensions. Delay wakeup will still lose to the setup because the second hit of the string hits at the same timing at the delayed getup. They can obviously armor through the initial meaty but that can be easily baited and punished. If they attempt to armor through the klone the stomp will break the first hit of armor and cause them to get frozen by the klone. If the opponent happens to be stand blocking the setup then the klone will actually kombo from the unblockable portion even if they blocked the f12. You can try to bait this using b2 but it doesn't meaty or beat delay wakeup so be aware of that.
I don't use Cyrax but it has some really grimy stuff with Sub too. Meterless 200 damage back throw combos and meterless 270 damage from raw slide punisher. Due to the slide extensions he can break 300 damage meterless pretty easily even midscreen. I randomly happened upon a YouTube video showcasing it I'll see if I can find it later.
Khameleon is honestly probably his best assist but I'd love to hear whatever other grime Sub players have been cooking with other kameos cause I think Khameleon is boring af.

 

[Savage8-8]

Personally I've found it very difficult to open people up with his base kit overhead/low mix. At higher ranks it seems people can reliably react to B2 (on PC at least) so I've pretty much phased it out of my gameplan entirely and my kameo choices lately kinda reflect that.

This was the reason I wanted to switch initially. His overhead is very unsafe and is reactible. That's why I focus on freezing them. I usually always anti air them with the clone (Catch them enough times they rage quit). Also in order to land the B2 I condition the opponent to block low. It's the same thing we had to do in MK9 bc his overhead was God awful in that one too. His B34 is safe and that's the main reason I stick with Sonya. I can combo off of the low extremely easy and just found a meterless 38 % combo of the low (B34 ~ Kameo B2 dash 34 ~ Kameo ~ F12->slide) . I keep using the low and once he is conditioned I bop em with the B2. I realized I didn't need the B2 to open him up bc i can throw or punish off of the low for big damage.

I really want use Goro but it's hard giving up that damage for me. Frost on the other hand I want to try bc orb doesn't really scale and a set up would be nasty. My only hesitation is you can't freeze twice. And this Kameo would remove his Klone from his combos.

 

[Eji1700]

Some absurdly clean nonsense with Khamelon centered around fan lift, and the second half is just a really nice and quick guide on how to actually execute a sub gameplan:

 

[mrapchem]

I'm not the best Sub Zero player around by any means but this is a topic I've definitely been wanting to discuss with people. Personally I've found it very difficult to open people up with his base kit overhead/low mix. At higher ranks it seems people can reliably react to B2 (on PC at least) so I've pretty much phased it out of my gameplan entirely and my kameo choices lately kinda reflect that. That being said I agree Sonya kameo is really solid for him because charged projectile covers some of the blind spots left by his base projectiles and makes approaching much easier. Some additional perks include neutral kameo letting him combo off EX reversal slide, 140 damage forward throw, and armored reversal leg grab.
For the past few months I've been running Frost and I think she's got a lot to help out his kit a bit. It's definitely a bit jarring running a summon-only kameo at first but I genuinely think he gets enough mileage from the moves to make it work. Forward kameo spike carpet is fairly slow but compliments his zoning nicely because it lets Sub full combo people for trying to disrespect his slow ice ball/df4 in fireball wars mid screen. Frost tanks an enemy projectile hit and the carpet usually still comes out, hitting the opponent in a punishable state of projectile recovery. Really useful against Reptile players trying to spam forceball midscreen. Forward kameo also gives him a meterless combo starter which I've come to value highly on this character. Neutral kameo is +4 with enough pushback midscreen to essentially reset neutral. There's obviously a gap whenever you use it but no opponent is realistically going to spend all their meter/kameo gauge interrupting it every time. Considering Sub has no plus frames on block other than stand 4 I think this is a nice tool to have. Leaves the opponent in a good range for a bf2 check if they try mashing afterwards. In the corner you're left close enough to d1 check. Back kameo is an extremely good setup tool since Sub can get it out without sacrificing too much damage during his BnBs. Miscreen starter->EX df4->dash cancel b2 b2->j21->ground klone->slight backstep back kameo is the main setup I use. For oki you can do a dash up grab that will freeze the opponent and give you enough time to dash up stand 4 special cancel into whatever you want. If you think they're going to duck the grab you can f1. The ice orb will combo off the f1 and allow you to full b2 combo. If set up correctly both the throw and mid will connect just barely before the orb so that either option breaks reversals with one hit of armor. Delay wakeup avoids the setup but you can just delay your throw/mid on read to combat that. The orb still chases down so even if they delay wakeup and you mistime your meaty they can't really press anything without getting blown up. Really fun setup potential. The held neutral kameo is the least useful move but it's still good for chipout occasionally. Very interruptible startup but it looks similar enough to neutral kameo startup that you can sometimes catch people trying to interrupt the punchwalk with normal neutral kameo.
I think Goro is also a really good choice for him because it helps plug his weak base pressure and meterless damage. Because he has essentially no plus frames Sub basically has to stagger everything minus which makes him liable to well-timed interrupts. Goro neutral kameo gets Sub very respectable damage from reversal EX slide which I think helps his pressure by letting him threaten slide as an option after finishing strings. Threat of reversal slide spam might discourage people from pressing after him minus frames which in turn lets him get more fraudulent turn stealing. Obviously this also helps his defense too. Sonya serves a similar function but I think Goro back kameo is a more consistent meterless launcher than Sonya's tools. Goro also lets Sub tack on a potential extra 90 damage in the corner after his kombos by ending a combo in slide, performing neutral kameo neutral kameo stomp summon right as Sub is about to slam the opponent on the ground, and then meatying with f12 klone. If the opponent gets hit by f12 the stomp will actually combo into ice klone allowing for extensions. Delay wakeup will still lose to the setup because the second hit of the string hits at the same timing at the delayed getup. They can obviously armor through the initial meaty but that can be easily baited and punished. If they attempt to armor through the klone the stomp will break the first hit of armor and cause them to get frozen by the klone. If the opponent happens to be stand blocking the setup then the klone will actually kombo from the unblockable portion even if they blocked the f12. You can try to bait this using b2 but it doesn't meaty or beat delay wakeup so be aware of that.
I don't use Cyrax but it has some really grimy stuff with Sub too. Meterless 200 damage back throw combos and meterless 270 damage from raw slide punisher. Due to the slide extensions he can break 300 damage meterless pretty easily even midscreen. I randomly happened upon a YouTube video showcasing it I'll see if I can find it later.
Khameleon is honestly probably his best assist but I'd love to hear whatever other grime Sub players have been cooking with other kameos cause I think Khameleon is boring af.

I have a video about exactly this topic:

 

[OldManFGC]

Nice to see people coming around to Khameleon, easily his best kameo. It's possible Janet might end up being as good someday, but it's going to take some time to master the puppet.

It's also nice that Sub has a number of kameos that are solid and work. You can play any of Sonya, Scorpion, Goro, Sareena, or Cyrax and do well. Heck, even Sub or Frost in some cases. Personally, I'm enjoying the grind to God with Scorpion kameo (don't think I'll have time for Elder this season) and can't wait to try Mavado.

 

[Eji1700]

Nice to see people coming around to Khameleon, easily his best kameo. It's possible Janet might end up being as good someday, but it's going to take some time to master the puppet.

It's also nice that Sub has a number of kameos that are solid and work. You can play any of Sonya, Scorpion, Goro, Sareena, or Cyrax and do well. Heck, even Sub or Frost in some cases. Personally, I'm enjoying the grind to God with Scorpion kameo (don't think I'll have time for Elder this season) and can't wait to try Mavado.

I still feel eh on goro. You get very little from punch walk/throw vs a better player, at least last I played, and I haven't seen much tech for it outside "wakeup slide call goro" tanya impressions. Is there any good tech?

 

[Kiss the Missile]

Some absurdly clean nonsense with Khamelon centered around fan lift, and the second half is just a really nice and quick guide on how to actually execute a sub gameplan:

Fuckin mental, I love this lmao

 

[OldManFGC]

I still feel eh on goro. You get very little from punch walk/throw vs a better player, at least last I played, and I haven't seen much tech for it outside "wakeup slide call goro" tanya impressions. Is there any good tech?

I'd agree. In some ways he's the most finnicky, and his longer cooldown is unfortunate. The only tech I'm aware of besides safe slide is that he lets you combo close slide (blowing up a gap for instance or a wakeup armor break) in a way some other kameos don't. That, and his low grab can be quite good for Sub.

Edit: But obviously, nothing compares to Khameleon, like you show in the fan lift video.