Sub-Zero General Discussion

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

So I'm looking to get back into this game, in time for Combo Breaker, after taking a break from it back in February to play Tekken 8. I WAS using Kung Lao kameo with my Sub-Zero, but KL kameo's latest nerf has me looking at other kameos for Sub now (I was using his buzzsaw hat for anti-airing quite a bit).

I'm looking at either Khameleon or Sareena as my new kameo. I used Sareena on Day 1 for about a couple of months before switching to Kung Lao kameo.

However, Khameleon was released when I was already heavily committed to Tekken 8, so I haven't really used her yet. But now that she's been out for a while now: I was curious to get people's takes on how they felt her learning curve was.

 

[CanoCano]

So I'm looking to get back into this game, in time for Combo Breaker, after taking a break from it back in February to play Tekken 8. I WAS using Kung Lao kameo with my Sub-Zero, but KL kameo's latest nerf has me looking at other kameos for Sub now (I was using his buzzsaw hat for anti-airing quite a bit).

I'm looking at either Khameleon or Sareena as my new kameo. I used Sareena on Day 1 for about a couple of months before switching to Kung Lao kameo.

However, Khameleon was released when I was already heavily committed to Tekken 8, so I haven't really used her yet. But now that she's been out for a while now: I was curious to get people's takes on how they felt her learning curve was.

She's not really hard to learn you just gotta get used to her constantly switching between Disguises, other than that she's pretty good with Sub

 

[Savage8-8]

I think Sub should have his old damage scaling back for the spikes or they decrease the recovery of the Klone.

Regarding the Klone I'm basically only using it for an anti air and in combo. I find it difficult to catch someone in the Klone if they are in your face. They can just poke through it even without armor. Its too easily punishable.

 

[OldManFGC]

I think Sub should have his old damage scaling back for the spikes or they decrease the recovery of the Klone.

Regarding the Klone I'm basically only using it for an anti air and in combo. I find it difficult to catch someone in the Klone if they are in your face. They can just poke through it even without armor. Its too easily punishable.

Sub is already top tier, so if he had his old school damage that would probably be a bit too much. That said, multiple spikes in a combo being basically pointless because it scales so hard is pretty lame. Making it do a touch more so you have a reason to spend the bar to close out a match, for example, would be nice.

People have gone back and forth about the utility of Klone in this thread, and sure, it could do more, but it already does quite a lot: combos and anti air like you say, as well as a parry against more obvious strings, grounded and airborne, and a great armor break, even against the fastest and best armors like Johnny or Tanya if you setup a safe jump which Sub can easily do. Also, lockdown in the corner, meterless or metered, into throw or mix/pressure if you don't have Kitana Kham available.

 

[OldManFGC]

So I'm looking to get back into this game, in time for Combo Breaker, after taking a break from it back in February to play Tekken 8. I WAS using Kung Lao kameo with my Sub-Zero, but KL kameo's latest nerf has me looking at other kameos for Sub now (I was using his buzzsaw hat for anti-airing quite a bit).

I'm looking at either Khameleon or Sareena as my new kameo. I used Sareena on Day 1 for about a couple of months before switching to Kung Lao kameo.

However, Khameleon was released when I was already heavily committed to Tekken 8, so I haven't really used her yet. But now that she's been out for a while now: I was curious to get people's takes on how they felt her learning curve was.

What CanoCano said, but I'd replace "good" with "amazing" . Janet is also pretty great, but I'd say Kham is easier to learn out of the two. Slide + Fan Lift = Win against a lot of people. Same with B3 + Mileena Ball.

Either way, GL at Combo Breaker!

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Combo Breaker update for me:

I didn't get around to trying out Khameleon before heading to CB, so I stuck with my ol' Sub-Zero / Kung Lao team.

Right before my pool, I intentionally got myself drunk just to see what it was like to compete while under the influence...lol. I ended up going 3 - 2 in my pool. Ended up having a blast and I'll probably do it again sometime!

But the reason that I came back on here to update was, after I got eliminated: I went ahead and played some casuals and decided to just select Khameleon and see if I could learn her on the fly during my casuals.

Within the first 15 minutes of using her as my kameo: I felt more powerful than I've ever had with my months and months of experience using Kung Lao kameo. Like.....holy shit, I should have just picked her up sooner! lmao!

 

[Eji1700]

It bothers me how must have khamelon is for sub. Fan lift alone opens up SO many options for sub, and it feels a little silly that the best way to zone with what is normally THE counter zoning projectile is to first use boomerang to cover it.

 

[OldManFGC]

Yup, Sub + Kham is crazy good. Part of it is how well they synergize and part of it is how busted Kham is (just look at Combo Breaker). Either way though, it's really nice that Sub has such a viable kameo option.

That said, after a lot of experimenting with Scorpion, Mavado, and some Janet (still need to do more), Scorpion might be viable at high level too, which would be nice to have a few more pairings to use in tournament.

 

[Eji1700]

Yup, Sub + Kham is crazy good. Part of it is how well they synergize and part of it is how busted Kham is (just look at Combo Breaker). Either way though, it's really nice that Sub has such a viable kameo option.

That said, after a lot of experimenting with Scorpion, Mavado, and some Janet (still need to do more), Scorpion might be viable at high level too, which would be nice to have a few more pairings to use in tournament.

Interesting, i would not have expected scorpion to be on the list. I know he's the damage option for most of the cast, is it the same thing with Sub or is there anything specific that makes it cook.

 

[OldManFGC]

Interesting, i would not have expected scorpion to be on the list. I know he's the damage option for most of the cast, is it the same thing with Sub or is there anything specific that makes it cook.

It's the fact you can combo off of meterless slide anywhere on screen. To me, the best part of Khameleon is the fan lift, and Scorpion lets you have that basically all the time. Also, being able to combo off of 44 is nice, especially since Scorpion combos create a lot of safe jump opportunities (lower damage on certain starters so might as well do safe jump instead of finishing). And, speaking of safe jumps, having mostly safe 50/50s off of them is handy, particularly against people at lower ranks who have trouble blocking. Leads to much faster wins.

After some grinding on KL using this new tech, unless you can pull off some really solid puppetry with Janet or can combo off of slide with triple punch with her consistently, which is really tricky imo, I'm sold on Scorpion being Sub's second best kameo. The only problem with him compared to Khameleon is you have to play neutral, but I personally find that more fun anyway.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

It's the fact you can combo off of meterless slide anywhere on screen. To me, the best part of Khameleon is the fan lift, and Scorpion lets you have that basically all the time. Also, being able to combo off of 44 is nice, especially since Scorpion combos create a lot of safe jump opportunities (lower damage on certain starters so might as well do safe jump instead of finishing). And, speaking of safe jumps, having mostly safe 50/50s off of them is handy, particularly against people at lower ranks who have trouble blocking. Leads to much faster wins.

After some grinding on KL using this new tech, unless you can pull off some really solid puppetry with Janet or can combo off of slide with triple punch with her consistently, which is really tricky imo, I'm sold on Scorpion being Sub's second best kameo. The only problem with him compared to Khameleon is you have to play neutral, but I personally find that more fun anyway.

I was using Janet briefly for basically the same reason you're using scorpion now. You can get 272 off raw slide by pressing back kameo right after the opponent gets impaled by the spear during the animation. From here do her triple punch into a brief wavedash and you get jump 12 into stand 4 bf3. Cyrax also gets 270 off raw slide and 200 damage meterless throw combos but that timing is mad tight. Honestly I didn't know scorp even let you do the same thing but I see your vision. I think the slide combos in conjunction with scorp kameo's bodyblock potential could make this team really good. Might actually be able to use ice ball for projectile trading since you can call scorp to tank a hit in projectile wars and actually get the ice ball out in time. Really sick find I'm definitely gonna try this team out!

 

[Savage8-8]

Interesting, i would not have expected scorpion to be on the list. I know he's the damage option for most of the cast, is it the same thing with Sub or is there anything specific that makes it cook.

Scorpion damage wise is a great option for Sub. And you can mix up your opponent with his overhead.

 

[Savage8-8]

It's the fact you can combo off of meterless slide anywhere on screen.

......... (Heads to lab)

 

[OldManFGC]

I was using Janet briefly for basically the same reason you're using scorpion now. You can get 272 off raw slide by pressing back kameo right after the opponent gets impaled by the spear during the animation. From here do her triple punch into a brief wavedash and you get jump 12 into stand 4 bf3. Cyrax also gets 270 off raw slide and 200 damage meterless throw combos but that timing is mad tight. Honestly I didn't know scorp even let you do the same thing but I see your vision. I think the slide combos in conjunction with scorp kameo's bodyblock potential could make this team really good. Might actually be able to use ice ball for projectile trading since you can call scorp to tank a hit in projectile wars and actually get the ice ball out in time. Really sick find I'm definitely gonna try this team out!

Ah, a fellow slide enthusiast! How did I not know that Cyrax can combo slide midscreen?? I'm only getting around 250 midscreen because of the odd flip out and insane gravity (neutral jump 12, enchanced dive kick, slide), but that's not bad damage, and obviously Cyrax corner damage is great. Honestly, if Cyrax's throw combo wasn't so crazy tight like you say, I'd be tempted to put Cyrax as a top pairing even though he doesn't let you combo off of strings.

As for Janet, thanks for the tip! I was always using the forward version of her, which makes it much harder, lol. Also, it took me a while just to get to a place where I could do her triple punch. After a solid hour though now, I see what you mean! Damn, 272 for one kameo bar. That feels so good. Her damage is still lower than Scorpion's for Fatal Blow (off of slide), but definitely higher overall. I also like how you can adjust the combo if you see you're not going to connect with the jumping 12 by going into enhanced dive kick and still getting 276. She doesn't let you combo off of 12 or 21 like Scorpion does but having consistent armored combos is sick. Hmmm, I'm going to have to do some serious grinding with both her and Scorpion to decide my Evo pairing.

Hope you enjoy labbing Sub + Scorp!

 

[OldManFGC]

......... (Heads to lab)

It blew my mind too. Couldn't believe how long I played the team without knowing when I found it.

Btw, midscreen, you want to use up Scorpion call a split second after slide connects. Comboing into 12 is fairly easy to get the time for, but you need the added float to go into klone.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

Ah, a fellow slide enthusiast! How did I not know that Cyrax can combo slide midscreen?? I'm only getting around 250 midscreen because of the odd flip out and insane gravity (neutral jump 12, enchanced dive kick, slide), but that's not bad damage, and obviously Cyrax corner damage is crazy. Honestly, if Cyrax's throw combo was so crazy tight like you say, I'd be tempted to put Cyrax as a top pairing even though he doesn't let you combo off of strings.

As for Janet, thanks for the tip! I was always using the forward version of her, which makes it much harder, lol. Also, it took me a while just to get to a place where I could do her triple punch. After a solid hour though now, I see what you mean! Damn, 272 for one kameo bar. That feels so good. Her damage is still lower than Scorpion's for Fatal Blow (off of slide), but definitely higher overall. I also like how you can adjust the combo if you see you're not going to connect with the jumping 12 by going into enhanced dive kick and still getting 276. She doesn't let you combo off of 12 or 21 like Scorpion does but having consistent armored combos is sick. Hmmm, I'm going to have to do some serious grinding with both her and Scorpion to decide my Evo pairing.

Hope you enjoy labbing Sub + Scorp!

In retrospect thought I should drop a demonstration of the Cyrax stuff I was talking about. Not my video but he shows off all the important stuff I was talking about within the first minute. Using j134 seems to be the best meterless option for this team which also gives you really good oki to grab loop.

 

[OldManFGC]

Wow, I had no idea he had those midscreen options with Cyrax--that's sick! I also realized that what I thought was a big weakness of Janet (and Cyrax) was their inability to combo 12 and 21 meterlessly, which I hit with a lot, but now that they can combo off of slide, that's gone. Damn, Janet might be even better than Khameleon...

 

[OldManFGC]

I was using Janet briefly for basically the same reason you're using scorpion now. You can get 272 off raw slide by pressing back kameo right after the opponent gets impaled by the spear during the animation. From here do her triple punch into a brief wavedash and you get jump 12 into stand 4 bf3. Cyrax also gets 270 off raw slide and 200 damage meterless throw combos but that timing is mad tight. Honestly I didn't know scorp even let you do the same thing but I see your vision. I think the slide combos in conjunction with scorp kameo's bodyblock potential could make this team really good. Might actually be able to use ice ball for projectile trading since you can call scorp to tank a hit in projectile wars and actually get the ice ball out in time. Really sick find I'm definitely gonna try this team out!

So I ended up digging a lot into Janet (not much puppet stuff yet, but everything else), and I actually think Scorpion might be better. That feels very odd to say since on paper Janet does more damage on raw slide combos and gives you access to armored launch combos anywhere on screen, which is especially great against characters with lots of gaps. However, even with her nut punch, she doesn't have the same mind games or mix that Scorpion gives at the end of a string. With her it often feels like you're losing neutral after attacking (though you can steal with armored slide which is great), but with Scorpion, assuming the opponent didn't blow up the gap with their own armor, you usually get to hit them for hitting Scorpion. Not that calling Scorpion is always safe, but he seems to create more hesitation from the opponent and thus opportunities for you. Also, Scorpion seems to allow for more damage off of 2 Scorpion calls compared to 2 Janet calls (his damage also seems slightly buffed with the patch, oddly), in part because the lift of his flame gives you access to 34 into J21 combos which is Sub's highest damage, and in certain combos Janet hits too low for that. Perhaps most important though, far calls of Scorpion let you counter characters trying to hide in the upper back of the screen, like Omni-Man or Scorpion, and Homelander will certainly do the same. Without Scorpion kameo, or Khameleon as Mileena throwing sais, you can't contest that space from a distance with Janet.

So, while I'm going to mess around a touch longer with Janet, and I still think she's an amazing assist for Sub, especially if you can lockdown someone in the corner with safe high damaging puppet combos, generally, I think Scorpion might be more well rounded.

Anyone else experimenting with these two and have thoughts?

 

[OldManFGC]

Oh, and being able to combo off what is arguably one of our best strings, 44, is great.

 

[CanoCano]

Btw if anyone didn't catch them during the Kombat Kast these seem to be the Sub buffs so far

• Deadly Vapors (Meterless) extends combos now
• Ice Clone is easier to combo into off of grounded strings
• Ice Ball is now faster (this one is less likely since it wasn't shown in the buff montage but in the Post-Kast gameplay footage)

 

[Eji1700]

Btw if anyone didn't catch them during the Kombat Kast these seem to be the Sub buffs so far

• Deadly Vapors (Meterless) extends combos now
• Ice Clone is easier to combo into off of grounded strings
• Ice Ball is now faster (this one is less likely since it wasn't shown in the buff montage but in the Post-Kast gameplay footage)

Fucking kills me that sub trades projectiles in the video and STILL gets punished for trying to slide a frozen character, but fuck it, the rest of this looks great. Normal clone also looks to be much easier to combo off of, although I don't think the recovery got buffed, and having meterless vapors actually extend combos should help soo much.

Here's hoping there's some frame data tweaking as well, but at the very least it feels like they're FINALLY trying to get everyone to be powerful.

 

[CanoCano]

Fucking kills me that sub trades projectiles in the video and STILL gets punished for trying to slide a frozen character

Tbf he took his sweet time sliding in, bro waited nearly a full second for that

 

[Eji1700]

Tbf he took his sweet time sliding in, bro waited nearly a full second for that

Yeah i'm hoping that's the case and it's not some "no that projectile has a year and a half of hitstun" situation. Just like how at first you wonder why sub isn't moving after clone until you realize, nope, still recovering.

 

[DFSHINNOK7]

They refuse to buff the ice clone in a meaningful way, but still want to keep his combo damage on the lower side. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[Pan1cMode]

It looks like the ice clone cool down has been decreased as well. You can see him use I’ve clone twice in a combo (causing a knockdown) but there’s only a 5s gap between them.

I’m pretty sure it was much longer than that previously.

Yeah i'm hoping that's the case and it's not some "no that projectile has a year and a half of hitstun" situation. Just like how at first you wonder why sub isn't moving after clone until you realize, nope, still recovering.

He very clearly has enough time to slide, the sub player just pauses for like a second and a half before going for it.