Guide - Sub-Zero SUB-ZERO COMBO THREAD (Patch 8/31)

[Mark von Zoftmutter]

Question: What would be the optimal cryomancer midscreen combo after a freeze? I know about 3 options which are,

All assuming B12xxDF2 starters:
- FJP, F122, F122, F421+3xxDB2 (33%) - best optimal I've found
- FJP, F122, NJP, FJ2, RC, 1, F421+3xxDB2 (32%) and a bit harder than the first one
- FJP, F122, B2, RC, F421+3xxDB2 (34%) - best dmg but very hard to pull of because of hard timing on B2 plus hard to connect F42 after B2 hits. This one is highly inconsistent imo.

Now another problem is with optimal one bar combos after a freeze. I now it's easier to just cancel into EXDB2 after hit, but what if I freeze the opponent midscreen and want to do a one, two or even an xray combo to finish him off. What are the options here if we don't count the problematic B2 after F122 link. Of course I can do standard B2, RC, F421+3xxEXDB2, F421+3xxDB2 for cca. 39%, but are there any better alternatives?

As far as I know it's impossible to connect another F421+3xxDB2 (with first one meter burned) if I use 2x F122 or F122, NJP after freeze (except in the corner). So the only metered option after freeze with F122 starter would be the problematic link with B2.

I hope you understand my post as it's probably written in a bit confusing manner, so what would be the optimal meterless and metered combo option on a frozen opponent midscreen? This is very apparent in GM and UB variation, but in cryomancer it's a bit blurry.

 

[Lokheit]

Question: What would be the optimal cryomancer midscreen combo after a freeze? I know about 3 options which are,

All assuming B12xxDF2 starters:
- FJP, F122, F122, F421+3xxDB2 (33%) - best optimal I've found
- FJP, F122, NJP, FJ2, RC, 1, F421+3xxDB2 (32%) and a bit harder than the first one
- FJP, F122, B2, RC, F421+3xxDB2 (34%) - best dmg but very hard to pull of because of hard timing on B2 plus hard to connect F42 after B2 hits. This one is highly inconsistent imo.

Now another problem is with optimal one bar combos after a freeze. I now it's easier to just cancel into EXDB2 after hit, but what if I freeze the opponent midscreen and want to do a one, two or even an xray combo to finish him off. What are the options here if we don't count the problematic B2 after F122 link. Of course I can do standard B2, RC, F421+3xxEXDB2, F421+3xxDB2 for cca. 39%, but are there any better alternatives?

As far as I know it's impossible to connect another F421+3xxDB2 (with first one meter burned) if I use 2x F122 or F122, NJP after freeze (except in the corner). So the only metered option after freeze with F122 starter would be the problematic link with B2.

I hope you understand my post as it's probably written in a bit confusing manner, so what would be the optimal meterless and metered combo option on a frozen opponent midscreen? This is very apparent in GM and UB variation, but in cryomancer it's a bit blurry.

I normally ignore the F122 into B2 because it will randomly send the opponent the other way and if you way too much to avoid it, you risk dropping the follow up, so the meterless goto for me is F122, F122, F421+3, Hammer which has good damage.

Midscreen if you want to get the most damage out of your meter it's beter to use the EX Hammer after the opener instead of a freeze (in the corner on the other hand, you get more total damage if the EX Hammer comes after the freeze because of the double B2).

If you still want to use you EX Hammer after a midscreen freeze, then go for the B2 starter. The damage difference with the F122-B2 starter that can randomly send the opponent the other way is of just 0.41 points (decimals count for total damage despite the combo text only showing full numbers, a 32.49 damage combo will be labeled as 32 and a 32.51 one will be labeled as 33 with just a 0.02 difference, but with such small quantities you want to go for the sure thing rather than the risky one) when done without the Iceball, and when affected by your typical 2 hits plus Iceball starter with added damage penalty, the difference is just 0.28 points, not worth the risk of dropping it with the F122-B2 at all.

 

[Mark von Zoftmutter]

I normally ignore the F122 into B2 because it will randomly send the opponent the other way and if you way too much to avoid it, you risk dropping the follow up, so the meterless goto for me is F122, F122, F421+3, Hammer which has good damage.

Midscreen if you want to get the most damage out of your meter it's beter to use the EX Hammer after the opener instead of a freeze (in the corner on the other hand, you get more total damage if the EX Hammer comes after the freeze because of the double B2).

If you still want to use you EX Hammer after a midscreen freeze, then go for the B2 starter. The damage difference with the F122-B2 starter that can randomly send the opponent the other way is of just 0.41 points (decimals count for total damage despite the combo text only showing full numbers, a 32.49 damage combo will be labeled as 32 and a 32.51 one will be labeled as 33 with just a 0.02 difference, but with such small quantities you want to go for the sure thing rather than the risky one) when done without the Iceball, and when affected by your typical 2 hits plus Iceball starter with added damage penalty, the difference is just 0.28 points, not worth the risk of dropping it with the F122-B2 at all.

Thanks! So if I understood you correctly you don't advise using iceball as a hit confirm at all if I want to go for max bnb 1bar damage. So rather just hit confirm any string into exhammer to get around 35 to 40% for one bar. Well that's not so bad it's solid. And if I want to go meterless then double F122 is the way to go. Ok makes perfect sense, thanks again.

 

[Lokheit]

Thanks! So if I understood you correctly you don't advise using iceball as a hit confirm at all if I want to go for max bnb 1bar damage. So rather just hit confirm any string into exhammer to get around 35 to 40% for one bar. Well that's not so bad it's solid. And if I want to go meterless then double F122 is the way to go. Ok makes perfect sense, thanks again.

Yup, it's also the most optimal use of that bar given how you still get to use the armor and OH properties from the EX Hammer in case they block the starter, while using it when you're already in the middle of the combo only uses the combo extender part (and in a not so optimal way).

Of course if you believe that's the amount of damage that will win the round or the game and you already did the iceball, it's fine to go for the EX Hammer mid combo. But in general, your midscreen damage is good enough and you will probably need that bar later in the game given how much Cryo lacks in terms of utility tools.

 

[ChaosTheory]

What's the damage off 1,1,1, EH Hammer mid-screen?

 

[Lokheit]

What's the damage off 1,1,1, EH Hammer mid-screen?

You have it in the first post of this thread

111xxDB2EX B2 RC F421+3xxDB2 [40%]

 

[ChaosTheory]

You have it in the first post of this thread

111xxDB2EX B2 RC F421+3xxDB2 [40%]

Ok, numbers weren't fresh in my head. I know mid-screen it doesn't seem worth it to use meter. I was remembering 35% meterless and 39% 1-bar, but that was EH Hammer after HC 1,1,1 into Ice Blast. Guess it doesn't matter when you EH Hammer, it's only typically worth it mid-screen after b2.

 

[RM Ree]

Question: What would be the optimal cryomancer midscreen combo after a freeze? I know about 3 options which are,

All assuming B12xxDF2 starters:
- FJP, F122, F122, F421+3xxDB2 (33%) - best optimal I've found
- FJP, F122, NJP, FJ2, RC, 1, F421+3xxDB2 (32%) and a bit harder than the first one
- FJP, F122, B2, RC, F421+3xxDB2 (34%) - best dmg but very hard to pull of because of hard timing on B2 plus hard to connect F42 after B2 hits. This one is highly inconsistent imo.

Now another problem is with optimal one bar combos after a freeze. I now it's easier to just cancel into EXDB2 after hit, but what if I freeze the opponent midscreen and want to do a one, two or even an xray combo to finish him off. What are the options here if we don't count the problematic B2 after F122 link. Of course I can do standard B2, RC, F421+3xxEXDB2, F421+3xxDB2 for cca. 39%, but are there any better alternatives?

As far as I know it's impossible to connect another F421+3xxDB2 (with first one meter burned) if I use 2x F122 or F122, NJP after freeze (except in the corner). So the only metered option after freeze with F122 starter would be the problematic link with B2.

I hope you understand my post as it's probably written in a bit confusing manner, so what would be the optimal meterless and metered combo option on a frozen opponent midscreen? This is very apparent in GM and UB variation, but in cryomancer it's a bit blurry.

Regarding the "...fjp, f122, b2..." combo; most of the inconsistency can be eliminated by some niche knowledge and a stance switch. For whatever reason, the f122 launch seems to differ slightly depending on Sub-Zero's relation to the opponents stance. To get this combo working, both the opponent and SZ must be facing the same way (both facing foreground or both facing background) after you freeze and before you fjp. There's luckily plenty of time to verify stances during the freeze. Having said that, the f122 > b2 timing is still difficult but not truly inconsistent.

 

[Lokheit]

@RM Ree even with the correct stance though, there is still risk of random change of direction (or not connecting because you waited too many frames fearing the random change of direction), that's why I personally recommend the F122, F122 version that can be landed without any difficulty and the damage is close enough to avoid the risks. If you drop it 1 out of 10 times, that one time can happen at the worst situation.

I know some other character juggles have been addressed, so I hope with KP2 the timing and air position are better to avoid this bug.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

If you get tired of doing F122, F122 combos, you can also do F122, NJP, FJK, run, F421+3xxDB2 for equal damage. I find the execution of the two to be the same.

 

[RM Ree]

Do we know if these Cryo combos work the same way on standard (Scorpion), tall/ big (Goro), and female (Mileena) models?

 

[Hor_PeT]

Been using Grandmaster for just on a month now on and off, I'm starting to get more consistent. Thought I'd give a point of view for someone new to MKX but a Veteran to MK Games. One thing, I find if I try to be too fast I can screw up a combo quite easily so I've learnt to be much much cleaner with my inputs where it's paying off. I got spoilt by that Mashy JIP2,2,2 Ice Ball in MK9. I find now I barely do crossups or JIPs unless absolutely necessary. Especially with Grandmaster my strategy as with pretty much any Grandmaster User now is always to put the opponent in the Korner and keep them there. Unlike MK9 Mid Screen Kombos in MKX for him are just there to get them in the Korner.

I'm yet to get the timing for the 'BNB Korner Carry Kombo' at the moment I'm getting a pretty good carry just from 2,4,2, Run, F,3,3. Then a Slide a few moments after not immediate as he can slide right past the opponent. I'm also finding B2, B2, F,4,2 Ice Klone to work consistently in the Korner Vs Males and Online too with bad lag. B2, B,1,2 Ice Ball works on Females in the Korner but can whiff if too slow. I'm working on a Shatter Kombo as well: Klone, B2, 2,4, Shatter, F,3,3 which gives a 'fairly easy-ish' 43% Meterless, still not quite sure if it's consistent though as the Shatter timing needs the opponent to be high enough in the Air that the F,3,3 can connect otherwise it can whiff quite easily. So far though these ones are working quite well for me and I think are very user friendly to someone picking up Grandmaster for the first time.

If anything I'd love to see 1,1,4, have a stagger instead of a knockdown with hit confirm Ice Ball Mid Screen and have B,3,3, be a hit confirm Ice ball on Males Mid Screen too but overall I think Grandmaster is in a good place now. I don't get the crying for nerfs as he is not dominating tournaments easily with brain dead play nor is he flooding Tournaments getting high up in the ranks nor is he just simply 'winning'. In all honesty, he still needs a few adjustments to be a major threat in tournaments. He is still fun though and has potential to win it all.

That all being said, I've still got a long way to go where I'll keep practicing and exploring to get the more advanced combos down and learning match ups to be at a level to compete hopefully before mid year.

Hello thanks for sharing your experience with us. I just started learning GM (I play Ninjitsu as my main but I like GM play style too and want to co-main or will see) and I have read combo threads, guides already.

I watched too many different combinations, variations, female/male combos, many different enders and I am a little bit overloaded. I need to start with basics few combos and build me up over time.
It is quite difficult to me to pick the first combos to learn there are so many of them with different purposes etc.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@RM Ree, I believe so, but I'll double check later today.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Yup, both types (i.e. F122, F122, etc. & F122, NJP, etc.) work on both body types. Cryo doesn't have trouble with his combos, just getting opportunities to start them, lol.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Oh, and I forgot to say that after Freeze, back dash, FJP, instead of F122, you can just do B2, run, F421+3xxDB2 for equal damage. So, three ways to accomplish the same thing, which can be nice for variety and to mix up the opponent if you want to stop a combo halfway for some sort of reset. Though, if you're resetting with Cryo, you're likely accomplishing it with restand, EN Freeze at the end of the combo.

 

[Lokheit]

If you get tired of doing F122, F122 combos, you can also do F122, NJP, FJK, run, F421+3xxDB2 for equal damage. I find the execution of the two to be the same.

IIRC F122 F122 is more damaging (decimals count for total damage even if the combo result is rounded up, you can test it sometimes 2 combos will deal 39.51 and 40.49 and it will say both deal 40 when there is basically a 1 point difference).

EDIT: B2 is inferior damage to F122 unless you plan to meter burn and that's not even taking decimals into account.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Well, for some people B2 can be easier, so worth it for consistency, since you're only trading decimals of damage. Also, there is something to be said for throwing off your opponent's expectation of your combo.

Interesting point though. I'll have to check the decimal difference.

 

[Lokheit]

Also, there is something to be said for throwing off your opponent's expectation of your combo.

The opponent is frozen so it won't throw him off much more

 

[Lokheit]

There is no need to even use decimals, do the naked version of each of them (without the starter into iceball) and you will see F122F122 does more damage than both, B2 and F122 NJP JIK.

This means, as it's the last part of the combo, that the better version will be the double F122. On top of that, you need zero stamina for that one which is always a plus.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Lol, I mean during the combo. A good opponent will be tracking their body, looking for you to drop, watching setups, etc. By varying your combo you give the opponent something different to remember and can put them out of their comfort zone, albeit slightly. As for stamina, due to the length of Cyro's enders, your stamina will be full recovered. However, you're correct, if you start the combo with zero stamina, then you should definitely do the usual F122, F122.

That said, you got me curious to see the exact numbers (and apparently I have some time on my hands right now), so here's Cyro's regular 111 punish:

1, 1, 1, Iceball, FJP, F1, 2, 2, F1, 2, 2, F4, 2, 1+3, Hammer
2, 1.9, 7.22, 0, 3.22, 1.74, 1.65, 2.61, 1.33, 1.27, 2, 1.7, .65, (.61, .31, .31, .31, 1.54), 3.14 = 33.51

1, 1, 1, Iceball, FJP, F1, 2, 2, NJP, FJK, F4, 2, 1+3, Hammer
2, 1.9, 7.22, 0, 3.22, 1.74, 1.65, 2.61, 3.11, 2.49, 1.43, .54, (.52, .26, .26, .26, 1.29), 2.64 = 33.14

1, 1, 1, Iceball, FJP, B2, F4, 2, 1+3, Hammer
2, 1.9, 7.22, 0, 3.22, 5.21, 2.6, .99, (.94, .47, .47, .47, 2.35), 4.79 = 32.63

And you're right, the standard F122, F122 does the most. However, for the aforementioned reasons and so I don't get bored =), I'll probably continue to mix in the others. Thanks for the info though.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Also, apologies for the format, all. I tried to line it up to make it easy to read, but TYM wasn't having it.

 

[Samsara]

Unbreakable- What is up with his damage? If we want to make full use of his aura enhanced db1 shatter special, we would need to use it mid-combo in tandem with his decreased recovery on aura to actually fulfill the patches intended purpose: increased damage. At the current moment NRS failed to take into account what a freeze and an aura cancel would actually do to his final damage, or willingly nullified any potential gains on purpose for fear of him being too strong.

In short, if they leave the scaling on an aura activation in, than exdb1 with aura active needs to do significantly increased damage either by a raw increase in magnitude or significantly less scaling via combo.

Since it does 12% unscaled raw, NRS won't buff the magnitude outright because it would be absurd. The only viable solution would be to decrease the scaling mid combo. A basic rule I tend to follow to justify use of meter is to compare an optimized meterless combo off of the same starter to the enhanced version from the same starter. The metered option imo needs to do a minimum of 5% more damage to be worth it.

For example: B12xxaura B12xxfreeze FJP 242 RC 1 RC 123xxslide does 31%

Metered: B12xxaura B12xxfreeze FJP B12xxEXaurashatter RC F42xxslide deals 34%

At the very least, we should be getting 36% (1-bar), which is completely in line with the rest of the cast. In order for this to happen the scaling on ex aura shatter would need to be adjusted. Currently at that point in the conversion it only counts for 5.06% damage. If we could get that up to 7.06% we'd be dandy.

Doing this would make Unbreakable at parity with GM and Cryo both in midscreen metered and corner metered damage, without making his midscreen meterless too strong.

 

[Samsara]

I am updating the patch and will be labbing the requisite Unbreakable changes as they apply to his damage. If people have found the optimal paths already let me know.

 

[GOL Eklectic]

I'm curious if people are landing b12 after a b2 in a combo consistently in open space. It's no problem off of a jump in punch but open space I can't land it and it's on the unbreakable combo section like as if it's a optimal/practical combo to go for. Specifically the b2 combo: b2,run,b12~exaura,123~slide

 

[Creepy00]

You should probably avoid using the raw b2,rc,b12 combo as it only works consistently against characters with big hitboxes such as, Kotal Kahn or Goro to name a few. The reason that it was originally included into the combo section is because it was in one point a reliable and consistent combo to pull off. Unfortunately, during of mkx's patches and the Run cancel bug issue, the timing for subzero to input the run after the b2 was delayed and unchanged since then. That is why it is harder to do it now.