YOMI LIVING MATCH UP CHART (FIRST DRAFT) v1.0 - 7-2-15 Tremor Patch

[MsMiharo]

Unfortunately I don't have much experience in a lot of these MUs, Kenshi being one of them. It's clear that Kenshi, Kung Lao and Shinnok win the MU but I would honestly need to play it more to find out if it is better or worse than this.

Match ups I disagree with in relation to Vicious Ferra/Torr Yomi/Biohazard:

Summoner Quan Chi: 3 - 7/5 - 5 possibly 6 - 4
Covert Ops Sonya Blade: 4 - 6/6 - 4
Grandmaster Sub Zero: 5 - 5/6 - 4
Cybernetic Kano: 4 - 6/6 - 4
Heavy Weapons Jax: 4 - 6/6 - 4

I am skeptical about Kitana, Kotal, Liu Kang and Scorpion and think that it might be an even MU but I'm unsure atm

For what it's worth (which is literally nothing) I agree with cyber Kano. F/T counter zoning hurts too much and when they get in its rough.

 

[Youphemism]

For Relentless Jason vs Cybernetic Kano the reason I think Kano has the slight advantage is because:

- Jason has piss poor jump attacks and it's easy for Kano to anti-air him with B+1 into full juggles
- Cybernetic's Zoning causes Jason to have to approach usually and limits a lot of "Red Zone" set ups which is key to Relentless' effectiveness
- Kano's D+4 has critical plus sides in this match-up, not only does it beat Jason to the punch when we are at sweep distance from each other, but it ALSO low profile's Jason's MID command grab, it low profiles his double MID hitting B+1,2 string, and it low profiles his best MID armor and wake-up attack (choke d,f+1). Kano can also use his D+4 to low profile every single wake-up Jason has, making the wake-up game severely in Kano's favor.


@Noobe was adamant on Cybernetic Kano having the slight edge vs Balanced Kenshi so you can ask him.

And Saltface was confident that Mileena has the edge vs Cybernetic Kano.

Ah ok cool, thanks. I'll play it some more when I can and test that out.

@Noobe could you explain why you feel he beats Balanced?
@YOMI RM SaltFace care to explain why you think Mileena beats Cybernetic Kano?

 

[SaSSolino]

does someone at YOMI has a boneshaper main? cuz I know he is op, but having him higher than kung lao or predator is just an insult.

woundcowboy made them mad :<

 

[REO]

@YOMI REO I disagree with all summoners losing mus except for shinnok on this chart

Which ones the most and reasoning?

 

[Zoidberg747]

@YOMI MITYEAP why do you think Aftershock Tremor is 5-5. It seems like he wouldnt have anything to get out of her offense when she gets going and he also has sub-par wakeups I've found(b2 blows them up). Then again you play DJT all the time which is why I'd like to get your take.

I'd also like to know why Cyber Kano is 5-5. I've always thought it was 6-4 her favor.

 

[brizzle]

So yomi is supposed to be taking players opinions into acount for this chart, but when the top Dvorah player says raiden wins the matchup after playing sets with one of the best Raidens, they put it as 5-5 instead of 6-4?

 

[cR Biohazard]

So yomi is supposed to be taking players opinions into acount for this chart, but when the top Dvorah player says raiden wins the matchup after playing sets with one of the best Raidens, they put it as 5-5 instead of 6-4?

The plot thickens

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

@YOMI MITYEAP why do you think Aftershock Tremor is 5-5. It seems like he wouldnt have anything to get out of her offense when she gets going and he also has sub-par wakeups I've found(b2 blows them up). Then again you play DJT all the time which is why I'd like to get your take.

I'd also like to know why Cyber Kano is 5-5. I've always thought it was 6-4 her favor.

For tremor: Tanya can pressure him for sure but he can do the same to her as well. Although u have ex rekka to get away from his pressure, if he baits that then u are in for a world of hurt when he punishes u and puts u in the corner. The biggest thing that hurts her vs aftershock is the fact that his air ground pound nullifies my tonfa zoning which is one of her best meter building tools
Now for kano: tbh I haven't played it enough and I could see why Tanya would win but patience from a kano will make it not so easy to approach since they needed her tele. But that MU I need to play more.

 

[REO]

So yomi is supposed to be taking players opinions into acount for this chart, but when the top Dvorah player says raiden wins the matchup after playing sets with one of the best Raidens, they put it as 5-5 instead of 6-4?

?

We changed five of D'Vorah's match ups to what HoneyBee said they were. The only one we didn't change was Raiden because everyone was telling me that's not a losing match up for D'Vorah with the general reason being "you whiff something and then in corner, setplay" applies to pretty much every character Raiden plays against. Maybe we're wrong, or maybe D'Vorah goes relatively even with Raiden. I guess we'll see in the next few months. Anyway, if the Raiden higher ups come in here and say Raiden mops D'Vorah, we'll just change it.

 

[Zoidberg747]

For tremor: Tanya can pressure him for sure but he can do the same to her as well. Although u have ex rekka to get away from his pressure, if he baits that then u are in for a world of hurt when he punishes u and puts u in the corner. The biggest thing that hurts her vs aftershock is the fact that his air ground pound nullifies my tonfa zoning which is one of her best meter building tools
Now for kano: tbh I haven't played it enough and I could see why Tanya would win but patience from a kano will make it not so easy to approach since they needed her tele. But that MU I need to play more.

How would he punish EX rekka if it is -4(the second rekka after EX rekka)? Are you talking whiff punishing? I also was under the impression that most of his oki/corner setups could be beaten with EX rekka, but the Tremors I play could be using suboptimal stuff. I agree with the air quake being troublesome though. Good input.

The thing with Kano is I feel you have to be more patient and respectful vs. him. As far as cybernetic goes he has no 50/50 mixups and all his other mixups rely on throw mixups and frametraps but you can be disrespectful with EX rekka since he can't punish the second hit. His zoning is annoying but again I find if you are patient enough it works out, and all it takes is one EX tonfa to trade and you get in for free. Only reason I see it maybe being 5/5 is he has good armored reversals he can mash to get out of her pressure. Cutthroat on the other hand I feel is a way better MU for him since he has the 50/50s to go along with the armored reversals and such.

 

[Derptile]

Will you guys consider changing/adding variations like Cutthroat Kano instead of Cybernetic?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Will you guys consider changing/adding variations like Cutthroat Kano instead of Cybernetic?

You and coach Steve should submit #s

 

[Derptile]

You and coach Steve should submit #s

Coach Steve made his own thread with all of Kano's variations not so long ago http://testyourmight.com/threads/coach-steve-match-up-chart-tentative.55118/ he's not the biggest fan of Cutthroat and prefers playing Cybernetic or Commando.

My numbers for Cutthroat would probably be

Spoiler

Strong advantage: 7-3
Jason
Takeda

Advantage: 6-4
Scorpion
Mileena
Quan Chi
Erron Black
Kotal Kahn
Ermac
Sonya(Not too sure, haven't played too many great Sonyas but this is where I'd put it)
Johnny Cage
Reptile


Even 5-5
Kung Lao(Maaaaaaaaaaybe in Cutthroat favor, but I'll leave it at 5-5 for now)
Cassie Cage***
Ferra-Torr***
Jax***
Goro***
Kung Jin
Jacqui Briggs
D'Vorah
Raiden
Sub-Zero
Tanya
Kenshi

Loses 4-6
Liu Kang(Probably 5-5, just to be safe I'll put it at 4-6)
Kitana***
Predator
Shinnok

And IDK enough bout Tremor

Any character I put *** on I feel that his other variation Cybernetic get +1 to the MU(so he beats Cassie, Jax, etc. and goes even with Kitana in that variation). Both Cutthroat and Cybernetic complement each other well since Cutthroat is rushdown and 50/50s while Cybernetic is more footsies and zoning based, and since Cybernetic is ridiculously easy to learn(1 day and you'll be good) there's no reason not to play him as well.

So Cutthroat only:
Strong Advantage: 2
Advantage: 9
Even: 12
Loses: 4

With both Cutthroat and Cybernetic:
Strong Advantage: 2
Advantage: 13
Even: 9
Loses: 3

 

[SM StarGazer]

Coach Steve made his own thread with all of Kano's variations not so long ago http://testyourmight.com/threads/coach-steve-match-up-chart-tentative.55118/ he's not the biggest fan of Cutthroat and prefers playing Cybernetic or Commando.

My numbers for Cutthroat would probably be

Spoiler

Strong advantage: 7-3
Jason
Takeda

Advantage: 6-4
Scorpion
Mileena
Quan Chi
Erron Black
Kotal Kahn
Ermac
Sonya(Not too sure, haven't played too many great Sonyas but this is where I'd put it)
Johnny Cage
Reptile


Even 5-5
Kung Lao(Maaaaaaaaaaybe in Cutthroat favor, but I'll leave it at 5-5 for now)
Cassie Cage***
Ferra-Torr***
Jax***
Goro***
Kung Jin
Jacqui Briggs
D'Vorah
Raiden
Sub-Zero
Tanya
Kenshi

Loses 4-6
Liu Kang(Probably 5-5, just to be safe I'll put it at 4-6)
Kitana***
Predator
Shinnok

And IDK enough bout Tremor

Any character I put *** on I feel that his other variation Cybernetic get +1 to the MU(so he beats Cassie, Jax, etc. and goes even with Kitana in that variation). Both Cutthroat and Cybernetic complement each other well since Cutthroat is rushdown and 50/50s while Cybernetic is more footsies and zoning based, and since Cybernetic is ridiculously easy to learn(1 day and you'll be good) there's no reason not to play him as well.

So Cutthroat only:
Strong Advantage: 2
Advantage: 9
Even: 12
Loses: 4

With both Cutthroat and Cybernetic:
Strong Advantage: 2
Advantage: 13
Even: 9
Loses: 3

I'll help you with Mournful Kitana...he loses. Badly. If he gets pushed full screen he outright loss. if he jumps, air glaive. Trys to zone full screen, air glaive. Its very very bad. 7-3.

 

[brizzle]

?

We changed five of D'Vorah's match ups to what HoneyBee said they were. The only one we didn't change was Raiden because everyone was telling me that's not a losing match up for D'Vorah with the general reason being "you whiff something and then in corner, setplay" applies to pretty much every character Raiden plays against. Maybe we're wrong, or maybe D'Vorah goes relatively even with Raiden. I guess we'll see in the next few months. Anyway, if the Raiden higher ups come in here and say Raiden mops D'Vorah, we'll just change it.

Well that answeres that lol. I wasn't aware you changed that many Dvorah matches. I just saw honeybee say his opinion after playing nivek and everyone out voted him. There needs to be more top raidens giving their opinions though, because I haven't seen anyone mention cage winning the matchup in the raiden forums.

 

[Derptile]

I'll help you with Mournful Kitana...he loses. Badly. If he gets pushed full screen he outright loss. if he jumps, air glaive. Trys to zone full screen, air glaive. Its very very bad. 7-3.

If Kano loses 7-3 to Kitana then most of the cast would fair just as bad or worse. He fairs better than most with his projectile, movement, and strong normals. I say 4-6 Cutthroat and 5-5 Cybernetic.

 

[gam224]

I am suprised that they listed rs kitana as beating balanced kenshi when sonic fox switched to EB vs pig. In the interview he even said it was a bad match up.

 

[gam224]

also i am suprised that kitana is seen as a being even with all quan variations when quan out zones her and she can't take advantage of his poor wake up.

 

[gam224]

mournful kitana vs balanced kenshi is in kenshi favor?

I actually used this variation to counter balanced kenshi because of the ex glaive lol. it's in kenshi's favor but not 6-4

 

[SM StarGazer]

If Kano loses 7-3 to Kitana then most of the cast would fair just as bad or worse. He fairs better than most with his projectile, movement, and strong normals. I say 4-6 Cutthroat and 5-5 Cybernetic.

Not Kitana as a whole just Mournful Im saying. She has the answers to those very points you made. She can shutdown Ex Ball fairly easily if not outright bait it. His projectile game gets kinda shutdown in a full screen war. Jump air glaive all day. His air ball into the low gets counter by the short range lift. Yes his normals are good but overshadowed if you can keep him out. One Shadow Kick, staff grqb or Throat slice and hes got one HELL of a mountain to climb.

 

[gam224]

Please guys, if you disagree post your thoughts as well as exp in the MU including training partners and offline etc. Remember this is mostly for offline since no yomi member plays online and with how shit the netcode is, MU might be skewed during online play. Not saying you can't post if your an online player or anything, just keep in mind some characters might seem more difficult to fight online etc thanks guys and try not to have a heart attack!!

With my kitana experience i say that cassie is even with all variations of kitana except asassin, kitana can really still play a run away game even though cassie's up close is more dangerous than most. On the other hand i think she loses to mileena all variations because she really has to respect the teleport more so than with characters like ermac because kitana's main zoning tool is air fan and mileena's teleport destroys that. Furthermore i find that the knives really make it hard to get in and this is the matchup where she really get's it handed to her besides kenshi. Speaking of kenshi sonic fox himself said that balanced kenshi was a good match up for kenshi when he was interviewed about it after having to swith to EB to beat pig in ESL. This match up in awful for kitana as a whole but espescially for rs. In the other two variations she can get in full screen with either ex asassin strike (if you get lucky) or ex glaive. The only way for RS to get in is ex square wave and if i'm goin to spend a bar i would like to get in for full screen and get a mix up off it. Further more in believe quan is a 6-4 in quan's favor because kitana can't really take advantage of quan's one weakness (poor wake up) because of her bad mix ups. Other than that the chart is spot on.

 

[gam224]

A lot of the match up chart was done by asking other top players for their respective character.

For example SonicFox did Erron and Kitana, Big D did Ermac, Pig helped with Kenshi, Noobe helped with Kano, etc. etc.

And it's called a "living" match up chart for a reason. It'll never be completely 100% set in stone and subject to evolve for many years to come.

If games like super smash bros melee have changing tier lists still i don't think mkx's tier list will ever be set in stone.

 

[gam224]

I'll help you with Mournful Kitana...he loses. Badly. If he gets pushed full screen he outright loss. if he jumps, air glaive. Trys to zone full screen, air glaive. Its very very bad. 7-3.

As i kitana i really agree with this although i think rs is just as bad for kano.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I really want to hear Pig's opinions about royal storm vs balanced matchup

 

[MrInsaynne]

I would love to play all you Kitana with Kano for experience. I don't think there is a character in the game that beats Kano 7-3 (maybe specific Variations may lose bad, but not all variations will lose 7-3 to anything)