YOMI LIVING MATCH UP CHART (FIRST DRAFT) v1.0 - 7-2-15 Tremor Patch

[SM StarGazer]

You can push a

I'm just gonna post some bullet points of what I think of this from top to bottom.

-When you say safe option out of Jax's pressure do you mean Ex Backhand or Ex Flying Kick (Ex bicycle kick is irrelevant)? Because Backhand starts up in 18 frames which can be stuffed out even by 11 and Flying Kick is -8 so it can be full combo punished(a difficult punish though). Backdash isn't a very good option for Liu Kang because it's absolutely terrible, Liu Kang can kind of poke out with D3 but it's 12 frames and can be beaten by nearly all of Jax's pokes, allowing him to stay on Liu Kang. Also using 12 against Liu Kang isn't a bad idea at all, it's only -3 which means if you do a D1 right after you'll beat out every option Liu Kang does or trade with B1 and if you read onto that you can backdash and whiff punish the B12 string.

-Everyone has to deal with Liu Kang's FBRC pressure game with the way it currently is so I have no real comeback for that(sorry </3).

-I agree Liu Kang's zoning beats out whatever Jax can throw back but that's where the Ex OH dash punch comes into play. Anytime Liu Kang goes for a Low fireball the Ex OH dash punch will easily handle it, do a full combo punish, and cover a large distance of the screen towards the corner. This is the best use of meter you have because it'll make the Liu Kang player scared to throw fireballs which makes getting in alot easier, it's not like you can use meter to get out of Liu Kang's pressure since Liu's B1>Armor.

-D3 low profiling F21 is a problem I'll give you that, but I'm not sold on the idea that it stops Jax in his tracks. It can't really be done on reaction since it's 12 frames and F2 is 13 frames, Jax has plenty of good low pokes as well to deal with it in the footsies game(F21 isn't all he has), F3 can be used to punish an d3 happy Liu Kang player for good damage, and if Liu Kang does manage to do a D3 on block from anything other than point blank range you can backdash any follow ups and easily whiff punish since the animations for B12, F44, of F213 are quite long.

It seems to me your problems with the MU are the zoning and staying in with pressure against Liu Kang, just go into practice mode and see which works best for you. Every Dragon's Fire player has a preference of how they like to play whether it's zoning or rushdown so remember that when you design your strategy.

You will change that to Ex360noscopeBitchslap rite now good sir.

 

[Derptile]

You can push a


You will change that to Ex360noscopeBitchslap rite now good sir.

u wot m8

 

[SM StarGazer]

u wot m8

....What you say about my momma!

 

[Undeadjim]

@Derptile

Firstly Ex Bicycle is there to punish F3, it punishes it both on block and canceled into any of Jax's special moves even EX'd. The only way to beat that is to do F3 RC in HW and immediately block to bait it out. If there in Pumped up or Wrestler and you have two bars and they F3 you get a guaranteed full combo or you can spend the one bar to start pressure afterwards.

I'm sitting in training mode currently and after 11 (When I am plus 2 the most i'm going to be plus) I am unable to stuff EX Backhand with a second 11 so I cannot stuff your armor without being negative -4 from finishing the 123 string on block into gotcha, I could run cancel to keep up pressure however you can poke out just fine. You can backdash safely after these moves and F21 will not hit you, F21 into F21,D3 into F21, 123xxGotcha into F21, B121 into F21. But lets say for a second I do 11 into F21 where if you backdash i'm guaranteed to hit you, well you can just D1 to beat any string into F21 and it is your turn.

After gotcha on block you can 100% down 1 and beat all my options Gotcha is -4 and with the block frame -3 like you said. I can't stand 1 because you will low profile my poke so what if I use my 7 frame down one against your 9 frame well there is a frame there where I can get cleanly beat given my D1 becomes 10 frames and you still have the option to backdash. Also after 123 gotcha i'm to far away to do a D1,D3 so lets say I go for a D4 to check you, you can D3 and beat it and your D3 will not get beat by my D1 if I choose to do that to try and catch a poke from you. You can also whiff punish, backdash read i'm going to block and go into a string.

Ex Overhead Dash is not a counter to zoning. When you're in the range of the move it is often not necessary to be throwing fireballs at this point but lets say you are for a second, the distance for overhead dash is one training room square however because you are hitting from such a distance away even hitting run cancel knee is not 100% consistent so we have to get closer to 3/4 of a training room square to get a full combo. So my reactions are going to have to be pretty good if while having to worry about all the other options at this range I can react you're low fireball, If i'm just a little to late I eat full combo and I have to get in all over again.

Jax's has other footsies tools and on this point but the low profile hurting F21 is a nasty thorn however. And because I am able to backdash a max range D3 does not mean anything bad for you, if I backdash I have just relinquished a training rooms square of space.

I understand how Jax's pressure works and Liu Kang doesn't get treated much differently I can abuse D3 a little better but we covered that you can backdash after this. If I do F2,F21 or 11 and go into anything that is not a low poke or back 121 (Which leaves you in an ok spot) you can D1 or D3 between, this is how Jax works against most characters I either look to 50/50 you for blocking or poke you when you're going to poke so I get a guaranteed low jail so I can abuse that and 50/50.

Looking at some of the MU's Yomi consider 6-4 for Jax I don't understand how DF could possibly be struggling as much as Balanced Kenshi in this MU, as much as Ermac and although they have it 5/5 I believe Jax goes 6-4 against Kotal and all these characters have far harder time than DF.

Any Liu Kang/Jax players feel free to input.

 

[infamy23]

Congrats you beat up a training dummy.

Yeah my bad, training mode is for scrubs I forgot.

Just humor me though.

If Kenshi whiffs a bf3 at absolute full screen, he is approximately -40 give or take a few frames.

Kitana can run the entire length of the screen in 40 frames. This means that Kenshi can do nothing other than block or armor if you duck a bf3 and then run towards him. If you duck a bf3 just outside of bf2 range, you can actually whiff punish him easily.

His overhead slash is supposed to discourage you from just neutral ducking, specifically for this reason. However, that move is slow and easy to fuzzy guard. If it hits you, it's only because you haven't practiced the matchup.

So I have to ask, what exactly is preventing you from "getting in" on a character who is absolutely no threat to you at full screen, and cannot even use his most important zoning tool without fear of being left helpless at -40?

 

[gam224]

Yeah my bad, training mode is for scrubs I forgot.

Just humor me though.

If Kenshi whiffs a bf3 at absolute full screen, he is approximately -40 give or take a few frames.

Kitana can run the entire length of the screen in 40 frames. This means that Kenshi can do nothing other than block or armor if you duck a bf3 and then run towards him. If you duck a bf3 just outside of bf2 range, you can actually whiff punish him easily.

His overhead slash is supposed to discourage you from just neutral ducking, specifically for this reason. However, that move is slow and easy to fuzzy guard. If it hits you, it's only because you haven't practiced the matchup.

So I have to ask, what exactly is preventing you from "getting in" on a character who is absolutely no threat to you at full screen, and cannot even use his most important zoning tool without fear of being left helpless at -40?

The problem isn't so much that getting in is difficult it's that once you are in what are you supposed to do with kitana. Kenshi wins this match up because he outzones kitana who is a zoner. Her hard match ups are one's that you can't outzone your opponent. Kenshi has equally bad mix ups but can counter Kitana's better that Kitana can counter his zoning. Plus if the Kenshi is knoweledgable of the match up and plays a good footsies/ spacing game he can push back Kitana with should and counter zone her all day. If i am fighting kenshi i'm not going with royal storm because the other two have more rewarding options that lead to set ups and are likely to put Kenshi in the corner.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I disagree with the liu mu chart as well and im up for a discussion about it.

 

[Undeadjim]

I disagree with the liu mu chart as well and im up for a discussion about it.

While you're here, what do you think of the DF Liu - Jax MU?

 

[D4G]

Going by this matchup chart Kung Lao, Tanya, Cassie, Shinnok and Predator are the Top 5 best in the game. Can you guys confirm that?

 

[EMPR_MURK]

While you're here, what do you think of the DF Liu - Jax MU?

I think its 5-5 or 6-4 jax. Dragons fire has an easier time keeping jax out while jax has the easier time staying on liu.
His pokes compared to liu are superior. On paper liu can't keep pressure on jax without the fbrc and if jax has meter, mb flying kick into bicycle kick is somewhat useless considering how jax really doesn't need meter as it is

 

[infamy23]

The problem isn't so much that getting in is difficult it's that once you are in what are you supposed to do with kitana. Kenshi wins this match up because he outzones kitana who is a zoner. Her hard match ups are one's that you can't outzone your opponent. Kenshi has equally bad mix ups but can counter Kitana's better that Kitana can counter his zoning. Plus if the Kenshi is knoweledgable of the match up and plays a good footsies/ spacing game he can push back Kitana with should and counter zone her all day. If i am fighting kenshi i'm not going with royal storm because the other two have more rewarding options that lead to set ups and are likely to put Kenshi in the corner.

He whiffs a bf3, he eats free pressure and possibly a whiff punish depending on distance. No amount of "good footsies/spacing" can avoid this. It's guaranteed pressure for Kitana EVERY time he does the move.

His overhead slash is useless.

How exactly is he supposed to outzone her, if he can't even use his zoning tools at full screen?

As soon as you punish one whiffed bf3, he will be hesitant to use the move at all. This leaves Kitana free to do whatever she wants.

His mix-ups aren't equally bad, they are worse. His overhead is a complete waste of time because it does barely any damage, has no pushback or knockdown. It's just pointless.

Her overhead on the other hand is only -4 on block, it does 9% and it's a hard knockdown. It's not the greatest, but it's better than his, that's for damn sure.

Her frames up close are way better than his.

I'd much rather have Kenshi trying to pressure me up close than Kitana. Literally the only thing he can do to me is throw, or super risky EXdb1 frame trap.

You are looking at this match with tunnel vision. It's not as simple as "if I can't zone someone, I lose".

He is also a zoning character, and he can't zone Kitana at all, so he's in the exact same boat. However, her offense is slightly more effective and much safer than his, and she does way more damage than he does.

Maybe her other variations are more effective against him, I dunno. But he definitely does not have an advantage against RS Kitana. If anything, it's 5-5.

 

[REO]

Well, yes, but his overall +/- would indicate that he has been considerably overrated up to this point, according to YOMI. Adding up his overall +/- compared to others would place him firmly lower mid tier.

Most likely he's not top five or whatever the general idea was for Jax if that's what the numbers suggest for now. BUT keep in mind this match up chart is missing over 50 variations so judging Jax's tier placement currently without all variations complete isn't ideal. Jax could be missing over 30 winning match ups from variations not listed. Time will tell.

 

[REO]

Hey guys, we will be updating this match up chart with some new variations like Cutthroat Kano after Summer Jam (thanks @Derptile & @Coachsteve). We're just busy right now with training for Summer Jam since it's in a few days.

@Kval2point001, I'm interested in receiving a copy of that sheet.

I disagree with the liu mu chart as well and im up for a discussion about it.

Which ones? @YOMI Zyphox is the one who did the Liu Kang numbers so I'm sure you guys can discuss it in here.

Going by this matchup chart Kung Lao, Tanya, Cassie, Shinnok and Predator are the Top 5 best in the game. Can you guys confirm that?

Possibly for now. But you have to take any placements listed right now with a grain of salt since the match up chart is not complete and is missing over 50 variations.

 

[Skylight1]

What I really want is for you guys to make an updated Yomi tier list. See how things have changed post-EVO, and for this week maybe, post-Summer Jam.

 

[Zyphox]

@EMPR_MURK what don't you agree with? and I based the MU on FF not DF.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

@EMPR_MURK what don't you agree with? and I based the MU on FF not DF.

1st one i think all the jax and liu players agree and feel jax vs flame fist is in lius favor.

 

[gam224]

He whiffs a bf3, he eats free pressure and possibly a whiff punish depending on distance. No amount of "good footsies/spacing" can avoid this. It's guaranteed pressure for Kitana EVERY time he does the move.

His overhead slash is useless.

How exactly is he supposed to outzone her, if he can't even use his zoning tools at full screen?

As soon as you punish one whiffed bf3, he will be hesitant to use the move at all. This leaves Kitana free to do whatever she wants.

His mix-ups aren't equally bad, they are worse. His overhead is a complete waste of time because it does barely any damage, has no pushback or knockdown. It's just pointless.

Her overhead on the other hand is only -4 on block, it does 9% and it's a hard knockdown. It's not the greatest, but it's better than his, that's for damn sure.

Her frames up close are way better than his.

I'd much rather have Kenshi trying to pressure me up close than Kitana. Literally the only thing he can do to me is throw, or super risky EXdb1 frame trap.

You are looking at this match with tunnel vision. It's not as simple as "if I can't zone someone, I lose".

He is also a zoning character, and he can't zone Kitana at all, so he's in the exact same boat. However, her offense is slightly more effective and much safer than his, and she does way more damage than he does.

Maybe her other variations are more effective against him, I dunno. But he definitely does not have an advantage against RS Kitana. If anything, it's 5-5.

Yea...no kenshi's offense is just as good as kitana's. both of them have no over head lows but kenshi has back 2 and forward 4 for moves that are plus and they cover better range. kitana can barely conver off ex fan full screen which is +48. She get's beaten by kenshi pretty bad. Who was it in esl that made sonic fox switch back to erron black? Oh! right it was pig of the hut, the most well known kenshi. Sonic fox right after said it was a pretty bad match up for her and honestly i agree. You make it seem as if balanced kenshi is worse than goro but that's just untrue. balance can still zone effectively sorry he's not god tier like he was in mk9. If you are afraid to zone as kenshi i don't know what to tell you. I truly believe kitana is better than kenshi but in this match up kenshi wins. when kitana get's in she can't do much in the way of mix ups. To top it off she has worse frames than kenshi up close. Her down 1 is -10 kenshi's if i recall correctly is -4. Granted kitana's standing 1 is 1 frame faster but i would rather have a 9 frame standing one than a punishable down 1. Her only real mix up is a MORE risky ex down back 2 counter poke. Kenshi's rising karma is more safe than kitana's up fans. If you get hit by her overhead you are either 90 or don't know the match up. I don't think you should be throwing around term like "tunnel vision"

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Yea...no kenshi's offense is just as good as kitana's. both of them have no over head lows but kenshi has back 2 and forward 4 for moves that are plus and they cover better range. kitana can barely conver off ex fan full screen which is +48. She get's beaten by kenshi pretty bad. Who was it in esl that made sonic fox switch back to erron black? Oh! right it was pig of the hut, the most well known kenshi. Sonic fox right after said it was a pretty bad match up for her and honestly i agree. You make it seem as if balanced kenshi is worse than goro but that's just untrue. balance can still zone effectively sorry he's not god tier like he was in mk9. If you are afraid to zone as kenshi i don't know what to tell you. I truly believe kitana is better than kenshi but in this match up kenshi wins. when kitana get's in she can't do much in the way of mix ups. To top it off she has worse frames than kenshi up close. Her down 1 is -10 kenshi's if i recall correctly is -4. Granted kitana's standing 1 is 1 frame faster but i would rather have a 9 frame standing one than a punishable down 1. Her only real mix up is a MORE risky ex down back 2 counter poke. Kenshi's rising karma is more safe than kitana's up fans. If you get hit by her overhead you are either 90 or don't know the match up. I don't think you should be throwing around term like "tunnel vision"

SonicFox can be wrong (remember he said Batgirl has no bad matchups? Batgirl vs MMH or Aqua are 5-5?). U can't compare d1 to d1, rising karma to up fans and say Kitana is worse lol. Kitana is better than Kenshi at close range, but she takes time to get in his face and one mistake sends her fullscreen again.
As a Kitana player, I think this matchup is EVEN.

 

[gam224]

SonicFox can be wrong (remember he said Batgirl has no bad matchups? Batgirl vs MMH or Aqua are 5-5?). U can't compare d1 to d1, rising karma to up fans and say Kitana is worse lol. Kitana is better than Kenshi at close range, but she takes time to get in his face and one mistake sends her fullscreen again.
As a Kitana player, I think this matchup is EVEN.

I disagree and why can't i compare down 1 to down 1 it's apples to apples! If i compared down 3 there would have been justification in what you said but it's there counter poke button for both of them. Also why can't i compare kenshi's rising karma to kitana's up fans? They are both anti air armoured launchers. They both do the same thing but kenshi does it better in this context.

 

[Zyphox]

1st one i think all the jax and liu players agree and feel jax vs flame fist is in lius favor.

i will talk with jupiter at SJ to see what he feels and we will play it out. i feel parry is what could make the MU hard and low profile d3 under f21. i use both these characters btw.

 

[infamy23]

Yea...no kenshi's offense is just as good as kitana's. both of them have no over head lows but kenshi has back 2 and forward 4 for moves that are plus and they cover better range. kitana can barely conver off ex fan full screen which is +48. She get's beaten by kenshi pretty bad. Who was it in esl that made sonic fox switch back to erron black? Oh! right it was pig of the hut, the most well known kenshi. Sonic fox right after said it was a pretty bad match up for her and honestly i agree. You make it seem as if balanced kenshi is worse than goro but that's just untrue. balance can still zone effectively sorry he's not god tier like he was in mk9. If you are afraid to zone as kenshi i don't know what to tell you. I truly believe kitana is better than kenshi but in this match up kenshi wins. when kitana get's in she can't do much in the way of mix ups. To top it off she has worse frames than kenshi up close. Her down 1 is -10 kenshi's if i recall correctly is -4. Granted kitana's standing 1 is 1 frame faster but i would rather have a 9 frame standing one than a punishable down 1. Her only real mix up is a MORE risky ex down back 2 counter poke. Kenshi's rising karma is more safe than kitana's up fans. If you get hit by her overhead you are either 90 or don't know the match up. I don't think you should be throwing around term like "tunnel vision"

I suggest you go and watch that match again. Almost 100% of Pig's damage came from brilliant reads that he made, or dumb mistakes from SonicFox. Pig was not able to zone him at all and he spent the majority of those 2 games with his back against the wall. Nothing that he did to Fox was directly related to an advantage that Kenshi has over Kitana.

What Fox meant to say is that it's harder to beat Kenshi with Kitana than it is to RAPE Kenshi with a character like Erron Black.

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

I know Bone Shaper Shinnok is mindlessly good from my online play, but is he really so mindless that he only has 2-4 even matchups? And not a single losing matchup?

I only play D'vorah and I know it isn't my favorite matchup against him, but there has got to be someone who has an advantage on him.

 

[gam224]

I suggest you go and watch that match again. Almost 100% of Pig's damage came from brilliant reads that he made, or dumb mistakes from SonicFox. Pig was not able to zone him at all and he spent the majority of those 2 games with his back against the wall. Nothing that he did to Fox was directly related to an advantage that Kenshi has over Kitana.

What Fox meant to say is that it's harder to beat Kenshi with Kitana than it is to RAPE Kenshi with a character like Erron Black.

I think at this point we will not come to an agreemant anyways but here it goes, i think this match up is in kenshi's favor because he zones out kitana and kitana can't really mix up Kenshi. Kitana is the better character but Kenshi wins this one. Is it awful for Kitana? no but it's not in her favor, in mournful and asassin the ways in she has are better and lead to better corner carry, and mix ups.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Yeah my bad, training mode is for scrubs I forgot.

Just humor me though.

If Kenshi whiffs a bf3 at absolute full screen, he is approximately -40 give or take a few frames.

Kitana can run the entire length of the screen in 40 frames. This means that Kenshi can do nothing other than block or armor if you duck a bf3 and then run towards him. If you duck a bf3 just outside of bf2 range, you can actually whiff punish him easily.

His overhead slash is supposed to discourage you from just neutral ducking, specifically for this reason. However, that move is slow and easy to fuzzy guard. If it hits you, it's only because you haven't practiced the matchup.

So I have to ask, what exactly is preventing you from "getting in" on a character who is absolutely no threat to you at full screen, and cannot even use his most important zoning tool without fear of being left helpless at -40?

I think he's more than -40.

At full screen, Kitana can punish a whiffed tele flurry with ex lift, ex iaAss or ex fan toss. Running up is a good option too but the fact that she can punish with good damage from full screen like that is a very good option as well.

 

[infamy23]

I think at this point we will not come to an agreemant anyways but here it goes, i think this match up is in kenshi's favor because he zones out kitana and kitana can't really mix up Kenshi. Kitana is the better character but Kenshi wins this one. Is it awful for Kitana? no but it's not in her favor, in mournful and asassin the ways in she has are better and lead to better corner carry, and mix ups.

You are just making statements and ignoring all of the evidence that is being presented to you.

Fox punishes Pig's bf3 THREE TIMES in the first game with the exact technique that I showed you in my video, and he blocked every single overhead slash.

Kenshi cannot zone Kitana and that is not debatable. It's a fact, based on the FACT that Kenshi's full screen moves are easily countered.

If Kitana can't do anything to Kenshi up close, then how did Pig lose the first game? How did he get hit by the overhead? the b14 into a 50% combo? the fake cross up into njp full combo? the fake njp into throw?

Why didn't Pig just block low all day and react to her apparently useless overheads and then win with ease?

I'll tell you why, because when Kitana is bulldogging through your projectiles and putting you in the corner, you are going to get hit by stuff regardless of how bad you think her mix-ups are.

Kenshi spends that matchup with his back against the wall. He is forced to make hard reads that leave him at -17 if he is wrong. If he goes for EXdb1 on wakeup, she punishes for 50 fucking percent.

Stop making general statements like "he outzones her" and start giving me concrete examples of how exactly he does this. I am offering you real world examples of his projectile being full combo punished, and the best Kenshi in the world getting hit by her non-existent mix-ups.