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Match-up Discussion Cat-woman Vs Bane is not a 3-7 or a 2-8 Mu

EMPEROR_JUPITER

Your ego betrays you.
You explained best-case scenario for all of these things tbh, I've lost my entire life bar from guessing wrong against bane. Catwoman is also difficult to vs online, slight frame delay can make her below average mix ups and untrue block strings look much better then they really are. His command grab definitely isn't reactable, it's 20 frames. An average reaction time is 24 frames, a freak of nature would have about a 21-22 frame reaction time, making it a true mix up.
 
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Kinetic Balding1

Day 1 Phenomenal Cyborg
You explained best-case scenario for all of these things tbh, I've lost my entire life bar from guessing wrong against bane. Catwoman is also difficult to vs online, slight frame delay can make her below average mix ups and untrue block strings look much better then they really are. His command grab definitely isn't reactable, it's 20 frames. An average reaction time is 24 frames, a freak of nature would have about a 22 frame reaction time, making it a true mix up.
Good luck reacting to a 14 frame low and 16 frame overhead.
 

EMPEROR_JUPITER

Your ego betrays you.
Bat girls mixups are similar startup to cw. I guess bat girl has below average mixups
Catwoman has 50/50s that are definitely not reactable lol, but many of her strings into them are not true block strings, which is what I meant. When comparing catwoman's 50/50s to characters like bane, martian, flash and batgirl.. you see that catwoman's mix ups are simply worse then other good 50/50 characters.
 
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Kinetic Balding1

Day 1 Phenomenal Cyborg
EMPEROR_JUPITER: 1497262 said:
Catwoman has 50/50s that are definitely not reactable, but many of her strings into them are not true block strings, which is what I meant. Batgirl does have true block strings involving 50/50s. Batgirl, Martian, flash and bane probably have the best mix ups, and when comparing catwoman's mix ups to characters with good mix ups you see hers are definitely below average for a mix up character. Where did I say anything about catwoman's mix ups being reactable? Catwoman also has much less chances to open somebody up compared to batgirl.[/quote and untrue block strings? I'm pretty sure f112 cat claws is a true block string.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
You explained best-case scenario for all of these things tbh, I've lost my entire life bar from guessing wrong against bane. Catwoman is also difficult to vs online, slight frame delay can make her below average mix ups and untrue block strings look much better then they really are. His command grab definitely isn't reactable, it's 20 frames. An average reaction time is 24 frames, a freak of nature would have about a 22 frame reaction time, making it a true mix up.
Average reaction times is definitely not 24 frames lol. People consistently block 18-19f overheads in MK9 and things like 20f overheads in SF4 are considered DP reactable.

A freak of nature is someone like Kuroda who can block 13f overheads in 3S on reaction.
 

EMPEROR_JUPITER

Your ego betrays you.
Average reaction times is definitely not 24 frames lol. People consistently block 18-19f overheads in MK9 and things like 20f overheads in SF4 are considered DP reactable.

A freak of nature is someone like Kuroda who can block 13f overheads in 3S on reaction.
By a 20 frame overhead do you mean hitting you on the 20th frame?.. Giving you more time to react after you've blocked it. And many people have played sf for a very long time, training your eyes to block a move for over a decade is different then reacting to bane's command throw in laggy connection.
 
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Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Yo I think what we should do is take away some of bane's buffs and give them to Grundy. Win-win for all

I'm for this. Let's give Walking Corpse the speed and range of Bane's dash.

Oh except we shouldn't take them away from Bane. They should both get them. That way we get some epic grappler vs grappler grand finals.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
By a 20 frame overhead I'm sure you mean hitting you on the 20th frame, giving you more time to react after you've blocked it. And many people have played sf for a very long time, training your eyes to block a move for over a decade is different then reacting to bane's command throw in laggy connection.
react to what after you've blocked it? You're not going to block something if you're not reacting to it in the case of MK9 Scorpion B2 or SF4 cody f+hp

Takes x frames to come out. You react to the last few frames and block it. You can't even put together "average reaction time" and "online" in the same sentence, I'm talking about genuine reaction time.

Things like Cody's overhead in SF I can block even without facing a lot of Codies because it's slow as hell, same thing with DPing Adon's jaguar kicks, they're all reactable.
 

EMPEROR_JUPITER

Your ego betrays you.
react to what after you've blocked it? You're not going to block something if you're not reacting to it in the case of MK9 Scorpion B2 or SF4 cody f+hp

Takes x frames to come out. You react to the last few frames and block it. You can't even put together "average reaction time" and "online" in the same sentence, I'm talking about genuine reaction time.

Things like Cody's overhead in SF I can block even without facing a lot of Codies because it's slow as hell, same thing with DPing Adon's jaguar kicks, they're all reactable.
Anything below 18 frame reaction or so is something you'll see in 1/10000 people. The average human reaction time is 24 frames, and many fighting game players I can think of have above average reactions, but still get hit by bane's command throw. Many people in the NRS community have not been playing these fighting games for over a decade, so I find it unfair to compare SF reactions to NRS player reaction time, simply because there top players have spent over a decade blocking mix ups.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Anything below 18 frame reaction or so is something you'll see in 1/10000 people. The average human reaction time is 24 frames, and many fighting game players I can think of have above average reactions, but still get hit by banes command throw. Many people in the NRS community have not been playing fighting games for over a decade, so I find it unfair to compare SF reactions to NRS player reaction time, simply because they've spent over a decade blocking mix ups,
There's a difference between normal people and fighting game players, there's also a difference between a game like Injustice with Bane who has quick low, overhead, regular throw AND a command grab and a game like MK9 where you basically wait to react to something like Scorpion's mixups or a low poke, same thing with SF4 where you're waiting and baiting normals to whiff punish and suddenly you see a distinct move animation.

I'd say it's near impossible to react to the command grab, even though it's in the normal reaction time of a FG player at around 20f, simply because he has so many other things to look out for.

Below 18f is a special case of Kuroda I was mentioning, you really need to be a disciplined guru to do that shit which is just unrealistic.
 
There's a difference between normal people and fighting game players, there's also a difference between a game like Injustice with Bane who has quick low, overhead, regular throw AND a command grab and a game like MK9 where you basically wait to react to something like Scorpion's mixups or a low poke, same thing with SF4 where you're waiting and baiting normals to whiff punish and suddenly you see a distinct move animation.

I'd say it's near impossible to react to the command grab, even though it's in the normal reaction time of a FG player at around 20f, simply because he has so many other things to look out for.

Below 18f is a special case of Kuroda I was mentioning, you really need to be a disciplined guru to do that shit which is just unrealistic.
when could u react to scorpion's 50/50? lol that wasn't reactable at all, no one blocked that consistently every time. Now batman's f3 can be reacted to always.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
what is a majority of the time? no one reacted to that everytime and that is all that matters really.
70%. You're obviously not always going to react to it but it's not like you can't at all. When I was playing in late 2012/2013 I could see other people in my scene blocking that on reaction.
 
70%. You're obviously not always going to react to it but it's not like you can't at all. When I was playing in late 2012/2013 I could see other people in my scene blocking that on reaction.
there is no proof that u can block it 70 percent of the time lol, but we can agree to disagree #YEEAAPP
 

coolwhip

Master
I don't know about Scorpion's B2 being completely reactable. Maybe if you're expecting it or sitting there waiting for it, but people, even very good players, get hit with that shit all the time.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I don't know about Scorpion's B2 being completely reactable. Maybe if you're expecting it or sitting there waiting for it, but people, even very good players, get hit with that shit all the time.
I'm mostly talking about after the teleport jip.
 

KH StarCharger

Kombatant
@KH StarCharger what is your thoughts of the bane mu?

Have you played @Kyu ?
That MU is not favorable by any stretch, but it's by no means impossible. Like I said in an earlier post, for CW to win, she has to establish momentum first by whatever means necessary. If she plays catchup, Bane is at an undeniable advantage. She has to be extremely smart, extremely savvy, and extremely reactive overall. When all is said and done, for her to have any shot at winning on or offline (Especially offline), the player needs to play their smartest game while the Bane player has a ton of room for mistakes but must respect certain aspects of CW's game lest they wind up losing a reckless game. On an overall note, CW can win the early games in a set but as it will drag out, Bane's strengths will eventually take their toll.

Yes I played @Kyu once upon a time until I had to stop playing games due to me taking 18 hours in the spring and 21 hours this past summer in school to accelerate my degree (I graduate this Fall). Don't worry either @Kyu, we will play more in the near future.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I would like to introduce a simple idea: watching a match between the two, months after they have equally broken down the match, and see what emerges.


Brief Annotations:
Max vs 16 Bit-9/514


0:19 to 0:21-After a blocked Raging Charge, 16 Bit goes for a b3 to get himself into his preferred range. Max decides to do a Raging Charge, knowing that it would have beat a jump forward, walk forward, dash forward and jump back. He correctly assumes Bit would move forward and is struck out of his b3 by the armored Charge

0:26 to 0:28-Bit does a Jump back 2, trying to guess on a movement option or Raging Charge, and Max doesn’t bite. He does another jump back 2 on reaction to the animation of Bane’s attack, which is Raging Charge and not Ring Toss. Bit is punished on his jump back by the Raging Charge

0:31 to 0:39-Bit guesses wrong on a f1 on wakeup and is hit by an armored Lvl. 3 Venom Ring Toss. He jumps back on his wakeup, trying to read a Ring Toss, and his struck by the armored F2d cancelled into Raging Charge MB, which ends the round. F2d at Lvl. 3 is armored, so it would have eaten any wakeup Catwoman had, as well as been a true blockstring had the guess been correct. Short fall, bad landing.

0:41 to 0:47-Max has a healthy lifelead and sitting near a corner interactible. Bit has three bars, but would have to burn them on either MB Catdash or MB b3, both of which he is significantly out of range of. He attempts to dash forward, and Max regains his ground by walking back. Bit attempts to jump and take out Max before he can get the interactible, and is hit by a Venom Uppercut. Catwoman had very little options and was forced to take a big risk, which did not pay off

0:49 to 0:52-Bit makes a great read with a MB b3 on the wakeup b2 from Max. However, due to the level of Venom that Max has, the damage is only about 30%, with any additional damage to be heavily affected by scaling and the Venom level. A great example of poor punishes on Bane due to his Venom damage decrease

1:54 to 2:03-Bit does a jump in 1, sailing over a Bane command grab. When he goes to punish, Max backdashes the f122 string and whiff punishes the string. Bit loses the game after a Ring Toss armored grab on wakeup. Ring Toss whiff animation a big factor in whiff punishing a correctly guessed whiffed Ring Toss

3:59 to 4:16- Bit is downed after a Raging Charge. He tries to backdash the attempted d1 xx special cancel, but Max dashes forward and strikes with D2. Bit again tries to backdash on wakeup to avoid a Ring Toss but is struck by the B23 of Bane. After the combo finishes, he goes to block the wakeup d1 from Bane that he expects but is struck by a Ring Toss. A final d1 xx Ring Toss seals the round for Max. Once Max landed a hit, Bit had little option but to guess without a true wakeup, which resulted in him losing the round.

5:22 to 5:35-Bit loses the round after he goes for standing 3 on Max’s wakeup, only to have the standing 3 lose out to a delayed wakeup Venom Ring Toss. Standing 3 on a wakeup is shown to have a decent counter in the delayed wakeup, which costs Bit the round

6:58 to 7:02-Bit has gained some ground and is on a lifelead. He times his jump so he is able to block the Raging Charge from Bane. He immediately does a f1 to check Max on block, but Max holds back just slightly and whiff punishes with a d2 into a Ring Toss to take the round. Bane’s superior footspeed allows him to counter followup attacks from Raging Charge; only b3 or its mb equivalent would have reached.

8:33 to 8:50-Bit uses a Standing 3 to beat out an armored Ring Toss, and proceeds to spend a bar to send Max through the stage. The combo only did 36%, with the transition doing most of the damage since Bane was out of Venom by the transition started. The combo likely would have done about 32% if the Venom had stayed. Abysmal punish on a good read.

11:03 to 11:06-Bit is hit by a d1, which Max decides to dash forward after as if it were blocked. Bit immediately realizes he’s at advantage frames and jumps back, but is hit out of it by a d2. Bane, even at negative frames, is able to knock her out of the counter attack.

The match is pretty in depth, and although Bit wins, we can see some of the issues that he is describing. In the first post Ra outlines many examples, but you will notice from watching the video that very rarely...

1) Max does Double Punch into MB Venom Upper

2) B3 is hitting Ring Toss out of a d2 cancel "every time"

3) MB Venom Uppercut done raw at a range where a character can dash under

4) Bane "dashing in patterns"

Very few of these options that are presented in the first post actually occur. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because the talking points in the first post have obvious counters because they are one-dimensional aspects of the match that have one-dimensional answers. I think it's reasonable to assume that Max and 16 Bit have gotten past those initial 1D matchup aspects and are playing a completely different game, we'll call it Meta 2. These Meta 1 options all sound nice in theory, but against someone who is well trained and versed in the matchup they appear ineffective and require different solutions. What those solutions are? I have no idea. But I will defer to the two who have played the matchup the most.

I will say this: I think that for the matchup to have even a remote chance of getting talked out, the TC could do a lot more than say that he's "just lacking." Have some respect for the thousands of matches the two have played out in an attempt to discover the match and stop bringing up superficial ideas. Find the meat in your argument then come back and argue.