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Match-up Discussion Cat-woman Vs Bane is not a 3-7 or a 2-8 Mu

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Jeez your brother is pretty slow at replying to texts... :DOGE
Ok so ForeverKing Jr finally texted me back. @Ra Helios this was his response word for word:

I think that because I faced ra helios online like everyday and he had more wins everytime. I know hes not the best catw but I'm the 2nd best or if not the best bane. Catw back dash is able to dodge banes double punch and body press doesnt always reach. Catw is so mobile. Its definitely a 5v5 matchup until one of them gets knocked down. If bane gets catw in the corner then he beats her. Bane getting cornered by catw (which is possible) is way worse than people think. People up play that match up. Im not saying catw doesnt lose but its definitely not 7-3 bane. I say its a tough 6-4. Plus people said Doomsday 7-3s catw but look what 16bit did to noobe and PL. Its the same way bane vs catw
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Anything below 18 frame reaction or so is something you'll see in 1/10000 people. The average human reaction time is 24 frames, and many fighting game players I can think of have above average reactions, but still get hit by bane's command throw. Many people in the NRS community have not been playing these fighting games for over a decade, so I find it unfair to compare SF reactions to NRS player reaction time, simply because there top players have spent over a decade blocking mix ups.
Actually, a reaction time below 18f is common. The standard is around 12-14f. The problem is it goes deeper than that -

When you see statistics like that, it's referring to pure reaction to a stimulus. When dealing with mixups there's a lot of factors that become involved in the neurological processing of these stimuli. To react to a change in stimulus can take ~12f. This is why it's not difficult to super moves on reaction that are relatively fast. But to process this change and make a multi-factored decision based off it can take ~18f (at least). So, reacting to an 18f overhead, for example, is not out of the question, but it goes deeper than that. When you have moves that look somewhat similar on startup, you need to account for the amount of frames it takes to distinguish between them, and this isn't easily quantifiable. Bane's command grab is difficult because you're not seeing a startup that will hit overhead or low, so you have to take things to another level and recognize that this is a grab and not a normal attack, which probably takes more than the 2f discrepancy between a reasonable reaction time and that move's startup.

So tl;dr you're probably right anyway
 
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Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
@Ra Helios I respect the fact that you don't follow the crowd. We all have different opinions. And yes you do have a different play style than CW. But to get things straight, since 16 bit played the game a year before anyone! I'm pretty he has more CW experience than all of us. Now if playing max doesn't change your mind tomorrow just say that and let it go. We are all stubborn and want to be right but we just gotta let it go
He hasn't, he played killer frost. I been playing catwoman day 1.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
0:26 to 0:28-Bit does a Jump back 2, trying to guess on a movement option or Raging Charge, and Max doesn’t bite. He does another jump back 2 on reaction to the animation of Bane’s attack, which is Raging Charge and not Ring Toss. Bit is punished on his jump back by the Raging Charge

0:31 to 0:39-Bit guesses wrong on a f1 on wakeup and is hit by an armored Lvl. 3 Venom Ring Toss. He jumps back on his wakeup, trying to read a Ring Toss, and his struck by the armored F2d cancelled into Raging Charge MB, which ends the round. F2d at Lvl. 3 is armored, so it would have eaten any wakeup Catwoman had, as well as been a true blockstring had the guess been correct. Short fall, bad landing.

0:41 to 0:47-Max has a healthy lifelead and sitting near a corner interactible. Bit has three bars, but would have to burn them on either MB Catdash or MB b3, both of which he is significantly out of range of. He attempts to dash forward, and Max regains his ground by walking back. Bit attempts to jump and take out Max before he can get the interactible, and is hit by a Venom Uppercut. Catwoman had very little options and was forced to take a big risk, which did not pay off

1:54 to 2:03-Bit does a jump in 1, sailing over a Bane command grab. When he goes to punish, Max backdashes the f122 string and whiff punishes the string. Bit loses the game after a Ring Toss armored grab on wakeup. Ring Toss whiff animation a big factor in whiff punishing a correctly guessed whiffed Ring Toss

3:59 to 4:16- Bit is downed after a Raging Charge. He tries to backdash the attempted d1 xx special cancel, but Max dashes forward and strikes with D2. Bit again tries to backdash on wakeup to avoid a Ring Toss but is struck by the B23 of Bane. After the combo finishes, he goes to block the wakeup d1 from Bane that he expects but is struck by a Ring Toss. A final d1 xx Ring Toss seals the round for Max. Once Max landed a hit, Bit had little option but to guess without a true wakeup, which resulted in him losing the round.

6:58 to 7:02-Bit has gained some ground and is on a lifelead. He times his jump so he is able to block the Raging Charge from Bane. He immediately does a f1 to check Max on block, but Max holds back just slightly and whiff punishes with a d2 into a Ring Toss to take the round. Bane’s superior footspeed allows him to counter followup attacks from Raging Charge; only b3 or its mb equivalent would have reached.

8:33 to 8:50-Bit uses a Standing 3 to beat out an armored Ring Toss, and proceeds to spend a bar to send Max through the stage. The combo only did 36%, with the transition doing most of the damage since Bane was out of Venom by the transition started. The combo likely would have done about 32% if the Venom had stayed. Abysmal punish on a good read.

11:03 to 11:06-Bit is hit by a d1, which Max decides to dash forward after as if it were blocked. Bit immediately realizes he’s at advantage frames and jumps back, but is hit out of it by a d2. Bane, even at negative frames, is able to knock her out of the counter attack.
Ring Toss? Lol Bane isn't Zatanna :DOGE

I'd like to comment on the above few which I believe aren't necessarily just due to the nature of the matchup/tools. I'd also like to add my own timestamps:

0:26 to 0:28- Max picks up on the fact Bit is trying to punish anything he tries with jb2 and punishes him with charge when Bit, once again, does a jb2.

0:31 to 0:39- Bit jumping back is clearly a mistake to be making here, Bane is on level 3 so pretty much any option Bit tries would've gotten armoured through. Him jumping is leaving him wide open to be hit/armoured through. It could just be a lack of awareness of the other character's trait at this point that caused him to make the mistake of jumping. Knowing he had no true wakeup and that Bane was on level 3 Venom and would've armoured through pretty much anything, Bit could have easily just sat and blocked the f2d~bf1, but instead he jumped leaving himself wide open to get punished which is exactly what happened.

0:41 to 0:47- Again, even though he's been punished for jumping already, Bit yet again jumps. Max correctly reacts with a Venom uppercut to punish. Bit has a couple of viable options here that could possibly prevent a punish: he could either low whip, after he dashed forward he could've done a MBB3 or MBF3, or he could've done a Cat Evade. Jumping in was a misread and opened him up for an easy punish. Side note: Bit did actually try a low whip as Bane was on debuff at 1:06, showing it is a viable option, so him jumping in at Max was a huge misread/mistake the first time he did it.

0:48 to 0:58- Bit makes a good read here and, as he's getting up, MBB3s Bane's B23. The situation after is kind of a half and half situation. Bit has almost three bars to spare and could've easily done a more optimised combo, and the combo he did do not only gave him just 30% due to 'Venom scaling' (though Bane was only on level 1, hardly reducing the damage in comparison to other levels) but ended up putting Bane at the other side of the screen rather than leaving him close to possibly try some sort of oki or keep Max where Bit wants him to be- in close enough of a range where he can have some sort of control, because as we know Bane outfootsies Catwoman. He most likely could've put him back in the corner too. He does get a couple of Cat Evades to build a little meter at the end, but this probably still could've been achieved with a more optimised combo.
Max goes for a delayed Venom Uppercut and, like Ra has suggested, this could have been dashed under/MBB3/F3d under and punished. He just so happened to spend a bar on the precautionary b3 under the interactable, which is understandable, but unnecessary. The MBB3 also could've been in case it hit for a combo, but in that case it was just a misjudgement of the range on his b3 or the space between him and Max.

0:59 to 1:05- Bit makes a great read on the grab and jb2s into Cat Dash for the punish. Again it may not have been the most optimised punish but it put Max into the corner. Unfortunately Bit backs up after this giving Max all the space he wants so he uses the interactable and Bit gets hit by it.

1:54 to 2:03- This is also half and half. Yes the damage from the command grab costing him the game is just due to the nature of the matchup, but Bit whiffing the full f112 string is the reason it happened. He could've done Cat Dash for full combo or the f1~cat claws option select so he'd only have whiffed the f1 and had a chance to block an attempted punish but chose to do f112. Him choosing to do f112~cat claws is understandable, but he ended up whiffing the whole string and it just happened to not be the best option at the time.

3:59 to 4:16- A very good read on Max's part, acting on the habits of Bit's play. He knew Bit would try to back dash the d1 into special cancel and so forward dashed and did a d2 to punish him. This situation wasn't necessarily because of Bane's tools or Catwoman's tools, more because of Max making a good read.*
Also if you watch the video at quarter speed you'll see that Bit actually didn't try to backdash the Body Press on wakeup, he went for a b3. Presumably he was going for a MBB3 but lacked the meter at the time.
The last part is definitely due to the nature of the matchup though, tick throws ahoy :p
*Side note: Basically exactly what happens at 4:58 and what Ken says, Bit adjusts to deal with it.

6:18- Oh look, a blocked Double Punch into MB Venom Uppercut going unpunished. I guess they need to go practice their Meta 1 again Kappa

6:58 to 7:02- Bane takes a step back, I wouldn't really call Max managing to whiff punish the f1 an effect of Bane's "superior footspeed". That's just Max having good reactions and good spacing or knowing that the f1 would whiff and punishing accordingly from having good matchup knowledge.

8:33 to 8:50- You're right, that was a bad punish for a good read. Had he optimised the combo though, and he could have for the bar he spent- using the Ra Helios MB Cat Dash whiff tech that adds damage to combos, he would've got more damage out of it. If you're not optimising your damage output you might not be playing the matchup at the highest level.

11:03 to 11:06- Bit had been caught out by this tactic already remember, and adjusted to it the next time it came around, but this time the d1 hit. He should've recognised what Max was doing from previous games and rather than jumping and eating a punish he could've stayed on the ground and blocked the d2 or reacted with the best option at that time. Knowing that Bane's d2 has huge reach, and is a good anti-air, this was a mistake on Bit's part.

Also I noticed that Bit jumped back on reaction to a lot of Max's charges throughout the matches...
 

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
It's possible I'm not that good with Catwoman. Perhaps I have good tournament fundamentals or something to make up for it. That's rough. I wonder how I'd cope with that.




Oh right.
Yep you do have tournament fundamentals going by a first to 2 im not denying that. But mu charts. No. Dont trust it
 

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
He hasn't, he played killer frost. I been playing catwoman day 1.
He worked on the game for a year. I'm sure he's been playing with Catwoman, his favorite character, since she was put into this game he said he used killer frost for tournaments because she was broken.
 

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Ring Toss? Lol Bane isn't Zatanna :DOGE

I'd like to comment on the above few which I believe aren't necessarily just due to the nature of the matchup/tools. I'd also like to add my own timestamps:

0:26 to 0:28- Max picks up on the fact Bit is trying to punish anything he tries with jb2 and punishes him with charge when Bit, once again, does a jb2.

0:31 to 0:39- Bit jumping back is clearly a mistake to be making here, Bane is on level 3 so pretty much any option Bit tries would've gotten armoured through. Him jumping is leaving him wide open to be hit/armoured through. It could just be a lack of awareness of the other character's trait at this point that caused him to make the mistake of jumping. Knowing he had no true wakeup and that Bane was on level 3 Venom and would've armoured through pretty much anything, Bit could have easily just sat and blocked the f2d~bf1, but instead he jumped leaving himself wide open to get punished which is exactly what happened.

0:41 to 0:47- Again, even though he's been punished for jumping already, Bit yet again jumps. Max correctly reacts with a Venom uppercut to punish. Bit has a couple of viable options here that could possibly prevent a punish: he could either low whip, after he dashed forward he could've done a MBB3 or MBF3, or he could've done a Cat Evade. Jumping in was a misread and opened him up for an easy punish. Side note: Bit did actually try a low whip as Bane was on debuff at 1:06, showing it is a viable option, so him jumping in at Max was a huge misread/mistake the first time he did it.

0:48 to 0:58- Bit makes a good read here and, as he's getting up, MBB3s Bane's B23. The situation after is kind of a half and half situation. Bit has almost three bars to spare and could've easily done a more optimised combo, and the combo he did do not only gave him just 30% due to 'Venom scaling' (though Bane was only on level 1, hardly reducing the damage in comparison to other levels) but ended up putting Bane at the other side of the screen rather than leaving him close to possibly try some sort of oki or keep Max where Bit wants him to be- in close enough of a range where he can have some sort of control, because as we know Bane outfootsies Catwoman. He most likely could've put him back in the corner too. He does get a couple of Cat Evades to build a little meter at the end, but this probably still could've been achieved with a more optimised combo.
Max goes for a delayed Venom Uppercut and, like Ra has suggested, this could have been dashed under/MBB3/F3d under and punished. He just so happened to spend a bar on the precautionary b3 under the interactable, which is understandable, but unnecessary. The MBB3 also could've been in case it hit for a combo, but in that case it was just a misjudgement of the range on his b3 or the space between him and Max.

0:59 to 1:05- Bit makes a great read on the grab and jb2s into Cat Dash for the punish. Again it may not have been the most optimised punish but it put Max into the corner. Unfortunately Bit backs up after this giving Max all the space he wants so he uses the interactable and Bit gets hit by it.

1:54 to 2:03- This is also half and half. Yes the damage from the command grab costing him the game is just due to the nature of the matchup, but Bit whiffing the full f112 string is the reason it happened. He could've done Cat Dash for full combo or the f1~cat claws option select so he'd only have whiffed the f1 and had a chance to block an attempted punish but chose to do f112. Him choosing to do f112~cat claws is understandable, but he ended up whiffing the whole string and it just happened to not be the best option at the time.

3:59 to 4:16- A very good read on Max's part, acting on the habits of Bit's play. He knew Bit would try to back dash the d1 into special cancel and so forward dashed and did a d2 to punish him. This situation wasn't necessarily because of Bane's tools or Catwoman's tools, more because of Max making a good read.*
Also if you watch the video at quarter speed you'll see that Bit actually didn't try to backdash the Body Press on wakeup, he went for a b3. Presumably he was going for a MBB3 but lacked the meter at the time.
The last part is definitely due to the nature of the matchup though, tick throws ahoy :p
*Side note: Basically exactly what happens at 4:58 and what Ken says, Bit adjusts to deal with it.

6:18- Oh look, a blocked Double Punch into MB Venom Uppercut going unpunished. I guess they need to go practice their Meta 1 again Kappa

6:58 to 7:02- Bane takes a step back, I wouldn't really call Max managing to whiff punish the f1 an effect of Bane's "superior footspeed". That's just Max having good reactions and good spacing or knowing that the f1 would whiff and punishing accordingly from having good matchup knowledge.

8:33 to 8:50- You're right, that was a bad punish for a good read. Had he optimised the combo though, and he could have for the bar he spent- using the Ra Helios MB Cat Dash whiff tech that adds damage to combos, he would've got more damage out of it. If you're not optimising your damage output you might not be playing the matchup at the highest level.

11:03 to 11:06- Bit had been caught out by this tactic already remember, and adjusted to it the next time it came around, but this time the d1 hit. He should've recognised what Max was doing from previous games and rather than jumping and eating a punish he could've stayed on the ground and blocked the d2 or reacted with the best option at that time. Knowing that Bane's d2 has huge reach, and is a good anti-air, this was a mistake on Bit's part.

Also I noticed that Bit jumped back on reaction to a lot of Max's charges throughout the matches...
Damn. That is some in-depth analysis. Damn.
 

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
He worked on the game for a year. I'm sure he's been playing with Catwoman, his favorite character, since she was put into this game he said he used killer frost for tournaments because she was broken.
And? So as the rest of the players?
 

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
He's an employee at NRS! He literally played the game before any of us! Just like he's playing MKX everyday currently
Dude your literally a sheep. I know this already. Pig, tom brady and etc was testing injustice. Looking for broken tech and cheap combos so it wont be in the final copy. Looking for glitches. That is a game tester isn't it? Not trying to learn how the character fundamentally play and disect it. Im i right or wrong explain sheep? Plus if 16bit knew that killer frost is broken why he never said anything?
 
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