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Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Yeah, haven't faced a good scorpion yet. Just been facing scrublords who spam teleport.
They can be punished into full combo by Cutthroat's f212 btw. Not sure about you other variations. f4 probably has enough distance to start something.
HA! they get punished if online lets you! Too many times have I had them be safe on tele's. Yeah I'm salty.
 

cyke_out

Noob
when u play sub especially grandmaster just zone them out. I feel that commandomkano is the best since u can throw a knife and immediately parry his slide so sub has no option but to come in on u and even then Kano has an amazing close game
Why bother parrying when you can just block and get a full combo punish that does more damage?
 

OmGxBdON

I'm going to make Fate top ten
Why bother parrying when you can just block and get a full combo punish that does more damage?
Specific to commando Kano variation if u don't have meter than ur punishes won't be hard. When u parry someone like for example sub zero slidin in tryna get passed ure zoning it discourages them to try it again. Making them feel like they have no options but to be patient and Walk forward. Also it's a big f u to the face and sets them up for a mix up. Btw let's say ure facin erron black and he does the ex version. U block it and it's not punishable better off doin a parry
 

Killusion

Stream addict
Don't play cutthroat against Jax :( He has sick corner damage, safe specials and great priority moves (his f4 beat mine all the time lol). Cybernetic probably zones him out decently and commando can escape corner with smart command throw or counter. Cutthroat felt really bad, maybe the 50/50 helps but with bar he has armor on everything lol.

I'm salty, maybe it gets better when I play this matchup more though.
 

Derocus

'The Cage Mage'
Here's something interesting to discuss.
How do you guys think Kano matches up to his own variations? I know I got wrecked by a commando when in cutthroat.
 

Killusion

Stream addict
Kano in general has difficult time to punish cutthroats F212 midscreen without meter, and cutthroat has 50/50 if he ever gets to set it up.

Cybernetic probably beats others because it feels really hard to get past knives. You have to do some smart reads with airball or EX kanoball to get in, cybernetic's knives recover so fast it's really hard to react to them in time. If cutthroat gets in though, not sure. Need to play this more.
Haven't played a lot of commandos, but on paper the match seems even or in cutthroats favor. Tick throws and counter reads vs cutthroats 50/50 and higher damage output, hard to say without really playing it.

Airballs trading look pretty cool.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
I was labbing Cassie and I found out that you can actually hit her armored and regular getaway flipkick with Cutthroat b1. For example, Cassie's f33 (overhead-low-shadow kick) string is supposed to be -8, however, upball does not punish it, instead you can throw her ass if she does it. Once you do that they might use the armored getaway flip to make you respect this option when Cassie is at negative frames. I recorded dummy Cassie doing f33 then flip kick and you can actually hit her with Cutthroat b1 after blocking her f33, you can't launch her, but you can do b1-knife toss and both the knife and b1 will connect for 11%. YOLO upball is not a legit option for 0 on block situations to escape pressure since chances are it will just whiff while Cassie's flip kick connects and you get launched.

Grandmaster Sub-Zero is not a losing match-up like it was in MK9. You can ex Kano ball Subby's ice clone cancels on a read so that the ball will consume the clone with armor and punish Sub before he recovers from placing the clone. Sub should not be able to trap you into the corner.

As for Scorpion, you need to use the practice mode to figure out the zoning exchanges. Unblockable hellfire in hellfire variation doesn't give Scorpion anything, it's -1 on hit, if you get hit by it, you can straight ball afterwards and Scorpion can't do anything but block and maybe teleport to avoid it (spear won't come out on time), which means that if you know he will block you get a free dash and he won't be able to punish that on reaction. The overhead minion in inferno is the same thing, very little advantage on hit. If you straight ball AS SOON AS you are able to after getting hit by the overhead, even from full screen, even a spear won't come out on time from Scorpion if he does a premeditated overhead minion into spear. Scorpion's hellfire/zoning tools have always had only 2 purposes, to condition you into jumping so he can punish you with either a spear or a teleport, or try to trick you into throwing a projectile after getting hit by hellfire. Getting hit by hellfire or blocking any of the minions as well as getting hit by the overhead don't mean anything, Scorpion will only land his teleport if you retaliate with a knife or throw a double knife at neutral and he reads it. You can get in on Scorpion by just walking, blocking low and throwing a knife every now and then to keep him on his toes. Knife can not be punished on reaction, Scorpion needs a setup or a read to land the EX teleport. Kano and Scorpion can not outzone eachother, however Scorpion has the advantage because he can get a full juggle on a right read, so what do you do? You close the distance to even out the risk-reward in your favour. Kano has better normals so once you get in you should be able to maintain your pressure. You can get a free d4 on a blocked 2,1,4 most of the time. whiffing ex aerial kano ball or ex kano balling while grounded on a reaction to his projectiles will get you in. Spear should not be neutral ducked but blocked, since it actually has bad enough recovery now for Kano to actually punish it with a straight ball even from full screen. Ex spear doesn't have armor anymore so Scorpion can not punish a 3/4 to midscreen knife on reaction like he could in MK9. I am not even gonna talk about his fireball in hellfire variation, that thing is a joke and you can easily discourage him from using it with a random knife every now and then, like what is the worst thing he can do? Hold the fireball and instant run cancel into a teleport to bait you into throwing a knife but that's a shitty gimmick and you should know he is trying to bait a knife or a a ball if he does fireball dash cancels... or try to initiate his own offence by whiffing the teleport and then pressuring you, in which case he will be close to you and at a disadvantage due to Kano's better normals. I firmly believe that the Scorpion match-up isn't bad, Cutthroat should beat be able to beat all of his variations.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
Something I haven't tested is if landing a knife, either Cybernetic or otherwise actually gives Kano a free, completely safe forward dash, I do think that it's possible against some characters but not all.

Edit: Inb4 I ought to get some more real matches in, but I love the practice mode, only a few things missing from it and you can figure out all of the bs in the game pretty quickly.
 
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I've been doing a lot of Kano mirror match between my Commando against @rximmortal and his Cutthroat. Before I really get into it I need to know something. I set the AI Cutthroat to record myself doing the F212 string and then backdash. To my knowledge it is safe except for specific things. One of those things I believe is Ex Kano ball.

After blocking the string I seem to be able to hit with Ex Kano ball before the backdash starts. I just need other people to test it as well to confirm it wasn't just my recording being off with the timing. If you can punish f212 and get a combo off the Ex ball cancel then that's a pretty big risk for Cutthroat to throw out when the other Kano has meter.
 

CanadianBaconX

Let's see how long this lasts...
I've been doing a lot of Kano mirror match between my Commando against @rximmortal and his Cutthroat. Before I really get into it I need to know something. I set the AI Cutthroat to record myself doing the F212 string and then backdash. To my knowledge it is safe except for specific things. One of those things I believe is Ex Kano ball.

After blocking the string I seem to be able to hit with Ex Kano ball before the backdash starts. I just need other people to test it as well to confirm it wasn't just my recording being off with the timing. If you can punish f212 and get a combo off the Ex ball cancel then that's a pretty big risk for Cutthroat to throw out when the other Kano has meter.
I set Training Dummy Commando to do EX Kano Ball as a reversal attack. I do F212 as Cutthroat Kano and before I can even block or backdash you get hit by EX Kano Ball's first hit which means you can cancel it, into a combo. However if you do F21 you can block in time but, if you backdash after F21 you get hit by the ball however you can't cancel it then.
 

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
Any advice for the Cybernetic vs Warlock Quan Chi? Played a few matches with a guy last night and was very frustrated by his portal kick and zoning. When I was able to get Quan to the corner none of my strings came out fast enough to beat the armor on ex sky drop.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I don't think Grandmaster sub loses to Cyber Kano at all. For one thing, your reversal options are absolute shite vs. Clone. The best options i could find were mb knives and mb kano ball, and x-ray, but i hardly think those are hella conditioning tools to stop his clone mess.

Also, while zoning sub can be done, its not quite as simple as someone in here said. Because ice clone eats a knife from full screen, Sub can toss an ice ball which will either trade with the next knife or, depending on how its timed, he can throw an iceball that you have to block, which allows him to start coming in.

Also, Sub Zero's slide is being hella downplayed. The sub player can choose to spend meter, going through our single knives and allowing him to get in. Plus, slude goes under regular knife.

If you spend meter to negate his meter expenditure, thats okay. I mean, you haven't really done much.

Once you're cornered, due to Kano's awful reversal options, getting out can be a nightmare.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Any advice for the Cybernetic vs Warlock Quan Chi? Played a few matches with a guy last night and was very frustrated by his portal kick and zoning. When I was able to get Quan to the corner none of my strings came out fast enough to beat the armor on ex sky drop.
This is one of the MU's I was talking about where I feel Cutthroat Kano is a better fit than Cyber. Probably the most frustrating MU outside of Scorpion in the game. Can't zone him, can be caught in his vortex options up close, and Kano can't mix him up as well as other characters.
 

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
This is one of the MU's I was talking about where I feel Cutthroat Kano is a better fit than Cyber. Probably the most frustrating MU outside of Scorpion in the game. Can't zone him, can be caught in his vortex options up close, and Kano can't mix him up as well as other characters.
My cutthroat Kano is booty cheeks but I'll try it next time.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I don't think Grandmaster sub loses to Cyber Kano at all. For one thing, your reversal options are absolute shite vs. Clone. The best options i could find were mb knives and mb kano ball, and x-ray, but i hardly think those are hella conditioning tools to stop his clone mess.

Also, while zoning sub can be done, its not quite as simple as someone in here said. Because ice clone eats a knife from full screen, Sub can toss an ice ball which will either trade with the next knife or, depending on how its timed, he can throw an iceball that you have to block, which allows him to start coming in.

Also, Sub Zero's slide is being hella downplayed. The sub player can choose to spend meter, going through our single knives and allowing him to get in. Plus, slude goes under regular knife.

If you spend meter to negate his meter expenditure, thats okay. I mean, you haven't really done much.

Once you're cornered, due to Kano's awful reversal options, getting out can be a nightmare.
I don't think it's as easy as people are making it either, but I am playing it better now. Basically Cyber Kano has to play hella lame and predict what he will do. Also I've found what helps me is using a lot of EX Knives at distance, more than usual. Since EX Knives blows up ice clone, hits before ice ball, and crushes EX slide, there's literally nothing he can do against a tossed EX Knives followed by a regular 3/4 away to full screen. Once he starts getting more brave then you use your other counters.

Mid range neither one of you jump. It sounds funny but whoever jumps in can get blown up. You can B1 into a combo any time he jumps in, and even B1 the crossup on a read. Make a habit of punishing slide every time you block one. A game changer for me was knowing my backdash range now. After some of his block strings or cancel into clones, the best option can be a backdash. He can't do anything except throw an iceball, slide, or jump, so after the backdash from that range just wait to see what he does so you can block and zone or punish slide.

Close range, that's where it gets tricky. You don't have too much advantage here imo, so the most you can do is try to pressure him and catch him with one of Kano's traps. Like EX Knives on block into pressure, D4 on block into F4 knee, backdash after an ice clone, grab, things like that. This isn't where you want to be.

The corner? Don't get put in the corner lol. If you can catch an overly aggressive Sub-Zero with an EX Ball cancel into a combo it's nice, but that's about his only option I've found other than to block and wait for an opening.

All in all it feels about even now, but I still want to play it more to feel sure.

My cutthroat Kano is booty cheeks but I'll try it next time.
Haha yea that Quan Chi MU is easily one of my most familiar. I played it for almost 2 and a half hours straight on Friday. At one point I raged so hard I pulled and stretched my shirt and started biting it lol. It was that real.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
I find the sub MU painful as well. I agree that you have to play quite a bit more lame than usual. It's one of those patience is a virtue situations. Often one side will get annoyed and say "i'm going in." This will usually be the sub with a yolo slide, especially on-line. Problem is that in that situation 8/10 times that fucking thing is safe due to the wonders of MKX online. Yep, salty AF here.

I've gathered that MB knives are great to use in this MU. However I seem to consistently fail at using them at the right time to capitalize on the plus frames or blow up armor etc. I need more XP in general.
 

cyke_out

Noob
Ugh... Don't get started on online punishes.

I spent this weekend learning the best punishes for Kung Jin's bullshit ( who is a god awful fuck of a character, regardless of how early the game's life is ). But when I go online, some matches feel like every damned thing he does is safe. Of course there are the lucky matches where I can easily blow up blocked dive kicks, but that doesn't erase the salt from all the other fail matches I had to endure.
 
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ando1184

Noob
Just realized Erron Black has a pretty dirty set up with his f1 2 string. If you block it he can cancel it into his command grab and it'll connect. Can be poked out of but if he doesn't go for the throw and instead finishes the string he can beat out most of Kano's normals. Might be able to poke him with a d3 or d4 if there's a big enough gap in the string but haven't had too much time to practice with it. I'll check it out more when I get home though
If you suspect the erron black player will command grab after f12 just let go of block. It causes the throw to whiff and you get a 112 punish for full combo damage .
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Any advice for the Cybernetic vs Warlock Quan Chi? Played a few matches with a guy last night and was very frustrated by his portal kick and zoning. When I was able to get Quan to the corner none of my strings came out fast enough to beat the armor on ex sky drop.
Kano has arguably one of the very best and easiest meaty attacks on Quan Chi's wake up in the corner. Unless your timing is horrendous, a meaty b+1 blocks the teleport and acts an anti-aerial attack if the Quan Chi player tries to jump out.

You can do something like b+1, throw, which resets the situation, or b+1,3, laser, b+3,1,2, b+1, b+1, b+1,3, EX 2+4, b+2,3, 1+3, which resets the situation and puts Kano at +13 on block. For a character who has no 50/50 mix ups, these mix ups are about as effective as you will see in a fighting game.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Kano has arguably one of the very best and easiest meaty attacks on Quan Chi's wake up in the corner. Unless your timing is horrendous, a meaty b+1 blocks the teleport and acts an anti-aerial attack if the Quan Chi player tries to jump out.

You can do something like b+1, throw, which resets the situation, or b+1,3, laser, b+3,1,2, b+1, b+1, b+1,3, EX 2+4, b+2,3, 1+3, which resets the situation and puts Kano at +13 on block. For a character who has no 50/50 mix ups, these mix ups are about as effective as you will see in a fighting game.
I didn't know about that corner pressure on Quan Chi. Good to know stuff.

My main question is how are you approaching this matchup around mid screen distance? This is normally where I can be dominant with Cyber Kano against most characters, but after playing a 2 n a half hour set against Summoner/Warlock, i was about ready to break the game. I haven't raged like that in a while lol. I "felt" like I had options, but QC's seemed to just counter all my normal strats at that range. Never have I felt that I had to get inside as much as I did in this set.

By far I had the most problems around Quan Chi's mid Rune range. How do you fight him around that distance?
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Kano has arguably one of the very best and easiest meaty attacks on Quan Chi's wake up in the corner. Unless your timing is horrendous, a meaty b+1 blocks the teleport and acts an anti-aerial attack if the Quan Chi player tries to jump out.

You can do something like b+1, throw, which resets the situation, or b+1,3, laser, b+3,1,2, b+1, b+1, b+1,3, EX 2+4, b+2,3, 1+3, which resets the situation and puts Kano at +13 on block. For a character who has no 50/50 mix ups, these mix ups are about as effective as you will see in a fighting game.
What's b12 on block?

There is a very lenient window where you can do b12 on a read of Quan's wakeup, the b1 breaks the armour and the 2 anti-airs him for a combo.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Swarm Queen/Venomous D'Vorah.
All Scorpion variations.
Grandmaster and Unbreakable Sub.
Covert Ops Sonya.


I think we have on of the few characters that can go toe to toe with Bojutsu, but these matches definitely don't feel in Kano's favor. They feel really uphill, even the ones I win.
D'Vorah maybe, haven't played it too much.
Covert Ops Sonya I wouldn't think is a losing matchup since she has to play up close where we can just zone, her damage is arguably worse than ours and her Military Stance mixups are minus as all hell. But I haven't faced many if any so I dunno, that's just my first impression though.
Scorpion I'd agree with even having not faced many lol. Fucking teleport characters ruining my zoning and shit...
Really?! Sub? I've had no problems with him, especially in Grandmaster where all he has is clone. That entire match for me is zoning to build meter, then using the meter to crush the clone and hit Sub while still usually still being safe enough to block any ice balls coming my way. Haven't faced many Unbreakables though but I could see how that could become a problem up close.
Kano has arguably one of the very best and easiest meaty attacks on Quan Chi's wake up in the corner. Unless your timing is horrendous, a meaty b+1 blocks the teleport and acts an anti-aerial attack if the Quan Chi player tries to jump out.

You can do something like b+1, throw, which resets the situation, or b+1,3, laser, b+3,1,2, b+1, b+1, b+1,3, EX 2+4, b+2,3, 1+3, which resets the situation and puts Kano at +13 on block. For a character who has no 50/50 mix ups, these mix ups are about as effective as you will see in a fighting game.
Kano is +13 on block after landing a combo? :DOGE
What's b12 on block?

There is a very lenient window where you can do b12 on a read of Quan's wakeup, the b1 breaks the armour and the 2 anti-airs him for a combo.
Are you talking about Cutthroat? Because he's talking about Cybernetic lol. B12 in Cutthroat is -10 on block though.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
D'Vorah maybe, haven't played it too much.
Covert Ops Sonya I wouldn't think is a losing matchup since she has to play up close where we can just zone, her damage is arguably worse than ours and her Military Stance mixups are minus as all hell. But I haven't faced many if any so I dunno, that's just my first impression though.
Scorpion I'd agree with even having not faced many lol. Fucking teleport characters ruining my zoning and shit...
Really?! Sub? I've had no problems with him, especially in Grandmaster where all he has is clone. That entire match for me is zoning to build meter, then using the meter to crush the clone and hit Sub while still usually still being safe enough to block any ice balls coming my way. Haven't faced many Unbreakables though but I could see how that could become a problem up close.
Yea Sonya has been giving me fits but I hear it isn't as bad so I'm gonna have to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm getting absolutely destroyed when she gets in. And she jumps in for free which kills my anti-air. When in the corner I put the controller down lol. Hopefully I get better in this MU but right now it's killing me.

Scorpion. The man who will make me break my fightstick. I see it already.

I'm getting good at this MU after some advice and playing my cousin almost every day who uses Grandmaster and Unbreakable. This match feels pretty even right now. Kano has a fair amount of answers for that clone and clone setups. Subs corner carry and corner game is real though. At first I was blowing him out, then him me, but now that we've gotten the feel of the game we're going fairly even. Feels right.

Never played a Brood D'Vorah, but her pressure is too real. Not many characters can go toe to toe with Kano in the footsie game but she's one. She can counter his zoning with that crappy Bug The Deep, even when she's hit from a knife it hits you and she runs up. Those bug frames on block and the cancels and the frame trapssss. Her wakeup Trident rush makes it hard to oki. No mistakes allowed in this MU. But that goes both ways in this one.


One MU I'm finding fairly easy is Goro. Doesn't seem like he can do much but get zoned out, and then when he finally gets in get pressured into a 3/4 screen knock back for more zoning.