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Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Vengeance135 said:
@Zoidberg747 I agree with what yoy are saying for the most part. I must ask this though, are you on PSN?? There are very few Ravens on PSN which are ducky, Shaolin, ShoveCatsUpMyAss (thats his actual name and hes crazy good) and a few others. If you are we need to play lol
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Nope, Im on XBL and I never play online(I have a wireless connection :( )
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Blind_Man said:
I'm going to try to continue explaining the footsie game in more detail. First I'm going to clear up the back walk thing. It is impossible for the joker to walk me to the corner. Every week I playa against the flash who plays nothing but footsies and has a forward walk speed that can compete with my own and not once have I ever walked myself into the corner. The jokers walk speed is the same as my back walk speed. Your only option to catch me is to dash or jump. Which then opens up my soul crush and d1 lift. Joker technically out ranges Raven but that's only if Raven isn't moving. If you don't dash up like a madman to get into a range where I won't walk out of d2 and whiff punish, you're taking a huge risk. I can stuff your dashes with both d1 and crush (obviously d1 lift is the better choice if you've managed to actually get this close to me). Also your options after a max range blocked lift are garbage. Jump back beats your forward jump 3, jump 1, teeth, and dash up d2. They all whiff. The only thing that will hit me is gun shot. I will gladly take 8% to tech roll and have the zoning advantage again. And now the other part that fucks joker over, the zoning. On top of getting outfootsied, you have to get through all my crap in order to even play footsies with me. I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the non traited zoning game turns out, but that doesn't matter that much because my trait cool down isn't long so you have to deal with that for a majority of the time. We all know how that goes. Joker has nothing to keep my trait zoning in check. I can do whatever I want for free against him. Also another flaw with the joker killing me on knockdown is the fact that you have to knock me down more than once in the corner, or bgb depending on stage. You have to take out my first life bar, then get rid of clash, then hit me one last time. How the hell is the joker going to do this unless the Raven player royally fucks up? Joker gets outfootsied and outzoned by her. Her walk speed is fucking broke.

@Qwark28
@StevoSuprem0
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Good post, agreed.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Blind_Man said:
I'm going to try to continue explaining the footsie game in more detail. First I'm going to clear up the back walk thing. It is impossible for the joker to walk me to the corner. Every week I playa against the flash who plays nothing but footsies and has a forward walk speed that can compete with my own and not once have I ever walked myself into the corner. The jokers walk speed is the same as my back walk speed. Your only option to catch me is to dash or jump. Which then opens up my soul crush and d1 lift. Joker technically out ranges Raven but that's only if Raven isn't moving. If you don't dash up like a madman to get into a range where I won't walk out of d2 and whiff punish, you're taking a huge risk. I can stuff your dashes with both d1 and crush (obviously d1 lift is the better choice if you've managed to actually get this close to me). Also your options after a max range blocked lift are garbage. Jump back beats your forward jump 3, jump 1, teeth, and dash up d2. They all whiff. The only thing that will hit me is gun shot. I will gladly take 8% to tech roll and have the zoning advantage again. And now the other part that fucks joker over, the zoning. On top of getting outfootsied, you have to get through all my crap in order to even play footsies with me. I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the non traited zoning game turns out, but that doesn't matter that much because my trait cool down isn't long so you have to deal with that for a majority of the time. We all know how that goes. Joker has nothing to keep my trait zoning in check. I can do whatever I want for free against him. Also another flaw with the joker killing me on knockdown is the fact that you have to knock me down more than once in the corner, or bgb depending on stage. You have to take out my first life bar, then get rid of clash, then hit me one last time. How the hell is the joker going to do this unless the Raven player royally fucks up? Joker gets outfootsied and outzoned by her. Her walk speed is fucking broke.

@Qwark28
@StevoSuprem0
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Awesome reply! Thanks for breaking it down more thoroughly, that definitely helps. I think the shortcoming in my understanding of the matchup comes from really underestimating her walk speed and how powerful of a tool that is, because it opens her up to play suuuuper lame with no real downside for her in this matchup. Joker can threaten any projectiles and such that you might go for in this time with his gun, but as you say, you'll gladly eat the 8% and remain across the screen, since if I make the wrong read and you simply duck and punish, you net alot more damage and send me full screen again. I think I just haven't played a Raven that plays as lame as you do (no offense obviously, it's just the best way to play her lol). This was a big help. I kinda was buying what you were saying before, but the added intricacies here really drove it home.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
VGMtheVagabond said:
Oh I understand. I lame @Fromundaman out (until I screw up). I know Raven isn't free without her trait, I play pretty strong with her, and unless there's a particular matchup or certain setups I want to do, I always neglect trait. I am fortunate enough to have two Jokers to play this match up with (@AL Eevee being the second, but he's gone for a few weeks) and I know it very well, it just always comes down to mind games and execution. I honestly wish we recorded out set this past Thursday to post, but unfortunately, we need recording equipment. Gotta get dat M2k money.
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That set was BS and we both know it.
I had no business winning that shit.



VGMtheVagabond said:
I think I should put some input on this. Raven doesn't HAVE to be in trait to bully Joker (I'm probably one of the only Ravens, if not the only one, who rarely uses trait). Raven can definitely still hurt Joker out of trait, it basically becomes a game of patience and punishment. Myself personally, I will throw out a Soul Crush and allow Joker to dash in until they get into Singularity range. If I throw it out and they block, I expect another dash and then punish with Soul Crush into a combo. It allows for not only damage, but puts them back with enough distance that this cycle is gonna repeat over and over until Joker gets in and does his dirty work. Now, I do need to practice what she can do to escape the corner, but as far as the midscreen game, Joker can't do much of anything to her.
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I just want to throw something in here:

That soul crush is not punishing my dash. It is punishing the fact that I get impatient when I finally make it into that range and often throw out a move after my dash thinking I will catch you in the startup of another lift, even though I almost always get soul crushed for it.

Have I mentioned how much I suck at adapting?


That said I've told you before and will do so again: You can hurt me a lot worse in trait than out of it.



Vengeance135 said:
@Zoidberg747 *Words*, ShoveCatsUpMyAss *more words of little consequence*
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There is a guy named "Shovecatsupmyass"?! I think I have a new hero.


______


Oh and yeah, Blind Man your post explains it really well, but I am having trouble focusing on that with the new found knowledge that somewhere on the internet there is a Raven asking to have cats shoved up her ass.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
The_PantyChrist said:
We still haven gotten to the matchup I'm MOST interested in getting too. Hint hint there's no way it's a 5-5
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You know, you made me go back and check to make sure I'd left that particular matchup blank. For some reason I didn't, but yeah, I don't know enough about it at high level right now to give a number XD

(We are talking about Bane right?)
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
The_PantyChrist said:
You put bane as 5-5 as well? Now I know you hav a sense of humor. But no it wasn't bane
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I think that may have been a mistake from copy/pasting some things from previous posts. I only played Max once and came back thinking it an impossible matchup at the time. I have since then changed my mind and labbed out some stuff/tried it against other Banes, but I have yet to play a high level Bane again and can therefore not say much on the MU.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Alright on to the lord of fish and footsies, "AAAAAAAAAAAQUAMAN".

(this image is way too large, but fuck it)
This is another one where some believe it to be even, while others thing it's heavily in Aquaman's favor. Let's hear it. What do we think?
Also, I'm gonna work on updating the OP's with conclusions at some point this week!
 
Vengeance135

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Aquaman is OP. I have much more to say but I feel like I really don't need to say anything more. @ anyone, lets hear it.
 
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