Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Blind_Ducky]

Yeah that's fair, but I wouldn't be going for footsies if I wasn't in range to at least force a block. That would just be poor spacing knowledge (not that I wouldn't do something like that, but we're talking about the matchup idealized, not my scrubby ass execution lol). If I'm in range to d2, then I'm in range to sweep/crowbar/throw teeth at you too, and I think that's the point where Raven starts to struggle.
I'd definitely agree that navigating her zoning is difficult, but what are you gonna do about Joker once he's in on you (real question, not being facetious)? Or are you just counting on the fact that her zoning and footsie tools are enough to never let Joker get close?
On a side note, it is kinda retarded that even when she trades on a lift, the player stays stuck in the animation of the move rather than just popping out. Kinda goofy looking

The only way for joker to get in range for his stuff not to whiff when I'm holding back is to dash and if he dashes and pushes a button, d1 lift blows it up. At this point it's just standard injustice footsies. Pushblock is godlike. Joker eventually gets in but it doesn't result in a free knockdown. Raven can hold her own at this range against the joker. Raven basically has infinite meter so if I block something it'll usually result in pushblock since you don't get mix ups until I'm knockdown. You have nooooo idea how happy I am nrs didn't patch out the hit trade glitch lol.

 

[The PantyChrist]

I understand that but you make it sound like I literally walk myself to the corner, which is not what happens. Your walk speed is too slow for that to actually happen

Not with 3 godlike parries...

 

[Vengeance135]

The only way for joker to get in range for his stuff not to whiff when I'm holding back is to dash and if he dashes and pushes a button, d1 lift blows it up. At this point it's just standard injustice footsies. Pushblock is godlike. Joker eventually gets in but it doesn't result in a free knockdown. Raven can hold her own at this range against the joker. Raven basically has infinite meter so if I block something it'll usually result in pushblock since you don't get mix ups until I'm knockdown. You have nooooo idea how happy I am nrs didn't patch out the hit trade glitch lol.

To add, Jokers saving grace in this MU is a small stage with a BGB. If you can read the soul crushes right and get right next to Raven she has to either get you away or fight back which results in that dumb ass string she has that narrows her hitbox and sends you flying back and is safe on block. Ravens up close options are terribly predictable, however against Joker they are really effective. Read the string, NJ2 full combo punish or parry. Whiff parry, you're back full screen. So basically in her face when you are both standing you have to read what Raven will do next or try to jump in. Like most Zone characters, they just look for a pushblock. So good, but risky, options are empty jump grab, b1 or 2, raw crowbar or anything that puts him in a guessing situation. The problem is a lot of this stuff is reactionary so the best go to imo is something like empty jump stall ij2 or some shit. Fuck Raven she looks like a Man.

 

[M2Dave]

For example I don't think Zod should EVER get an IA zod ball on screen offline since you can punish with gunshot on reaction AND get a free forward dash out of it.

If Daigo and Sako fused bodies tomorrow, I highly doubt even they could react and whiff punish a well-executed instant aerial Zod ball with Joker's gunshot.

You may know Joker very well, but as far as Zod is concerned most of your posts are filed with absurd theories that make me scratch my bald head.

The fact is that I played every major Joker player out there. I fought Qwark and Vengeance online and Dark offline. They usually struggled to win more than 2-3 games in a first to 10 series. Pig also told me that he fought and beat you convincingly offline. I think Pig also beat Sonic Fox's Joker.

All theories aside, the match is 7:3 in Zod's favor until a Joker player proves otherwise.

 

[Vengeance135]

If Daigo and Sako fused bodies tomorrow, I highly doubt even they could react and whiff punish a well-executed instant aerial Zod ball with Joker's gunshot.

You may know Joker very well, but as far as Zod is concerned most of your posts are filed with absurd theories that make me scratch my bald head.

The fact is that I played every major Joker player out there. I fought Qwark and Vengeance online and Dark offline. They usually struggled to win more than 2-3 games in a first to 10 series. Pig also told me that he fought and beat you convincingly offline.

All theories aside, the match is 7:3 in Zod's favor until a Joker player proves otherwise.

The General.... has spoken.

 

[Fromundaman]

If Daigo and Sako fused bodies tomorrow, I highly doubt even they could react and whiff punish a well-executed instant aerial Zod ball with Joker's gunshot.

You may know Joker very well, but as far as Zod is concerned most of your posts are filed with absurd theories that make me scratch my bald head.

The fact is that I played every major Joker player out there. I fought Qwark and Vengeance online and Dark offline. They usually struggled to win more than 2-3 games in a first to 10 series. Pig also told me that he fought and beat you convincingly offline. I think Pig also beat Sonic Fox's Joker.

All theories aside, the match is 7:3 in Zod's favor until a Joker player proves otherwise.

Yes, he did beat me very convincingly and I will never say the opposite. I didn't count scores but I won only a couple (2-3) out of somewhere between 15-20 games?

That said, I honestly think that was more due to a skill gap (After all, one of us made top 3 at EVO while the other struggles to win a local ) than anything since the things I talk about did work on him (Gunshot keeping his zoning in check and allowing me to move in, pushblocking trait mixups, etc) and the only thing that didn't was punishing his wakeups, which forced me to go into the lab to find setups that cover both zod charge and push since apparently Zod Charge has more invincibility than I had previously thought. Most of what did get me killed was a failure to adapt to things (Like him MB B3ing my D2>BF3 and how I would jump near consistently after certain setups, even after getting AAed countless times), which strike me as more of player weaknesses than character ones.

That said, the Joker players needing to prove otherwise sounds fair. I hope to get the chance to play this MU against a top Zod again and hopefully either change people's minds or have someone change my own.
*Cough* Host events in Cleveland so I can come play you guys *cough*

 

[Vengeance135]

@Fromundaman sometimes the MU can just be really bad. Your skill can be there but when the MU is bad its just bad. I did very well against M2daves pocket characters and, as the @General M2Dave said himself, Zod spoils him which is true in this particular MU due to the relentless power Zod has in tools over Joker. Downplaying yourself, however, isn't the way to see things. You forget that these top players do lose to people that nobody knows about and gain experience from it. Your enthusiasm towards trying to find ways to beat or better the MU is great but at the end of the day Zod convincingly just bodies Joker. We can tweak the way we play Zod but overall you're just walking into an unfavorable deathmatch.

 

[oNe87_Kentucky]

I got no love from m2dave. Harsh. #WhenPropFishingGoesWrong

 

[StevoSuprem0]

The only way for joker to get in range for his stuff not to whiff when I'm holding back is to dash and if he dashes and pushes a button, d1 lift blows it up. At this point it's just standard injustice footsies. Pushblock is godlike. Joker eventually gets in but it doesn't result in a free knockdown. Raven can hold her own at this range against the joker. Raven basically has infinite meter so if I block something it'll usually result in pushblock since you don't get mix ups until I'm knockdown. You have nooooo idea how happy I am nrs didn't patch out the hit trade glitch lol.

Alright I'll stand corrected. Like you said, I'm probably considering it too much from an "on paper" perspective rather than in practice, which causes me to underestimate the important of her walk speed and such in the neutral game against Joker. Thanks for all your input man.

 

[Fromundaman]

@Fromundaman sometimes the MU can just be really bad. Your skill can be there but when the MU is bad its just bad. I did very well against M2daves pocket characters and, as the @General M2Dave said himself, Zod spoils him which is true in this particular MU due to the relentless power Zod has in tools over Joker. Downplaying yourself, however, isn't the way to see things. You forget that these top players do lose to people that nobody knows about and gain experience from it. Your enthusiasm towards trying to find ways to beat or better the MU is great but at the end of the day Zod convincingly just bodies Joker. We can tweak the way we play Zod but overall you're just walking into an unfavorable deathmatch.

I tend to disagree. As of yet the only Zod to ever beat me has placed top 8 in the last few majors and punished me hard for player errors. Similarly I have beaten a few Zod players who's other characters can beat or go even with me (@Mod who beat me last Saturday with Superman pretty convincingly, will not use Zod against me since it is almost a guaranteed loss for him, and he does not have a bad Zod, though I will admit his Superman is better).
There can be a lot of reasons why a player wins or loses; a matchup is not always to blame.


That said, I will have to hold that until I manage to prove otherwise.

 

[Vengeance135]

I tend to disagree. As of yet the only Zod to ever beat me has placed top 8 in the last few majors and punished me hard for player errors. Similarly I have beaten a few Zod players who's other characters can beat or go even with me (@Mod who beat me last Saturday with Superman pretty convincingly, will not use Zod against me since it is almost a guaranteed loss for him, and he does not have a bad Zod, though I will admit his Superman is better).
There can be a lot of reasons why a player wins or loses; a matchup is not always to blame.


That said, I will have to hold that until I manage to prove otherwise.

From what it sounds like, your Zod player doesnt know the MU like he should which is an error on his part for not delving deeper into a MU that heavily favors Zod. I was trying to say that at the end of the day, you could be a great player, even on high level from what it sounds like especially with your MU chart, pig just knows what to do and knows how to navigate the MU. You have to be playing at a high level if you think Joker goes even with Zod, Aquaman and MMH lol either that or extreme upplaying

 

[Qwark28]

@Blind_Man Just woke up, let me get back into this freshly.

You're basically saying that you are walking back and even though I'm cautious, I will eventually be caught once with a whiff punish into 40%, back to fullscreen and given you back a lot of space, yes?

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I'm going to try to continue explaining the footsie game in more detail. First I'm going to clear up the back walk thing. It is impossible for the joker to walk me to the corner. Every week I playa against the flash who plays nothing but footsies and has a forward walk speed that can compete with my own and not once have I ever walked myself into the corner. The jokers walk speed is the same as my back walk speed. Your only option to catch me is to dash or jump. Which then opens up my soul crush and d1 lift. Joker technically out ranges Raven but that's only if Raven isn't moving. If you don't dash up like a madman to get into a range where I won't walk out of d2 and whiff punish, you're taking a huge risk. I can stuff your dashes with both d1 and crush (obviously d1 lift is the better choice if you've managed to actually get this close to me). Also your options after a max range blocked lift are garbage. Jump back beats your forward jump 3, jump 1, teeth, and dash up d2. They all whiff. The only thing that will hit me is gun shot. I will gladly take 8% to tech roll and have the zoning advantage again. And now the other part that fucks joker over, the zoning. On top of getting outfootsied, you have to get through all my crap in order to even play footsies with me. I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the non traited zoning game turns out, but that doesn't matter that much because my trait cool down isn't long so you have to deal with that for a majority of the time. We all know how that goes. Joker has nothing to keep my trait zoning in check. I can do whatever I want for free against him. Also another flaw with the joker killing me on knockdown is the fact that you have to knock me down more than once in the corner, or bgb depending on stage. You have to take out my first life bar, then get rid of clash, then hit me one last time. How the hell is the joker going to do this unless the Raven player royally fucks up? Joker gets outfootsied and outzoned by her. Her walk speed is fucking broke.

@Qwark28
@StevoSuprem0

 

[Blind_Ducky]

@Blind_Man Just woke up, let me get back into this freshly.

You're basically saying that you are walking back and even though I'm cautious, I will eventually be caught once with a whiff punish into 40%, back to fullscreen and given you back a lot of space, yes?

You can't be cautious. Being cautious against Raven = infinite chip. You must take risks multiple times in order to get within footsie range, then you must continue to take risks, however if you're correct here, you get a combo into set ups.

 

[Vengeance135]

@Blind_Man her not in trait is what keeps this MU 6-4. Joker can compete with her projectile by inching his way when he is abou half the screen away and if Joker block soul crush he gets a free dash. At full screen to 3/4s screen if Joker can read the projectile Joker can actually shoot revolver and recover in time to block or even duck the projectile. That being said, when Raven isn't traited she does have to find a way to trait up for her to really fuck Joker up. Blind man and a few other Ravens already showed me that if they are full screen or 3/4s screen away they will take the 8% gunshot just to activate trait. So Joker has to take advantage of her not being in trait the most which is where small stages come into play. On a small stage Raven can't run forever which means she will have to play somewhat offensive to compete with Joker or risk getting pushed to the corner. Now she can also just chill in the corner because all she has to do is fish out an attack and pushblock you back and continue the same shit over and over. This MU Jokers reads need to be on point and his execution needs to be flawless. @Qwark28

 

[BanTheTesters]

"I think you underestimate me!"
Joker Matchup Discussion Thread

...it's like NRS knew....

 

[VGMtheVagabond]

@Blind_Man her not in trait is what keeps this MU 6-4. Joker can compete with her projectile by inching his way when he is abou half the screen away and if Joker block soul crush he gets a free dash. At full screen to 3/4s screen if Joker can read the projectile Joker can actually shoot revolver and recover in time to block or even duck the projectile. That being said, when Raven isn't traited she does have to find a way to trait up for her to really fuck Joker up. Blind man and a few other Ravens already showed me that if they are full screen or 3/4s screen away they will take the 8% gunshot just to activate trait. So Joker has to take advantage of her not being in trait the most which is where small stages come into play. On a small stage Raven can't run forever which means she will have to play somewhat offensive to compete with Joker or risk getting pushed to the corner. Now she can also just chill in the corner because all she has to do is fish out an attack and pushblock you back and continue the same shit over and over. This MU Jokers reads need to be on point and his execution needs to be flawless. @Qwark28

I think I should put some input on this. Raven doesn't HAVE to be in trait to bully Joker (I'm probably one of the only Ravens, if not the only one, who rarely uses trait). Raven can definitely still hurt Joker out of trait, it basically becomes a game of patience and punishment. Myself personally, I will throw out a Soul Crush and allow Joker to dash in until they get into Singularity range. If I throw it out and they block, I expect another dash and then punish with Soul Crush into a combo. It allows for not only damage, but puts them back with enough distance that this cycle is gonna repeat over and over until Joker gets in and does his dirty work. Now, I do need to practice what she can do to escape the corner, but as far as the midscreen game, Joker can't do much of anything to her.

 

[Youphemism]

(I'm probably one of the only Ravens, if not the only one, who rarely uses trait).

Ray Riazy hidey confirmed

 

[Vengeance135]

I think I should put some input on this. Raven doesn't HAVE to be in trait to bully Joker (I'm probably one of the only Ravens, if not the only one, who rarely uses trait). Raven can definitely still hurt Joker out of trait, it basically becomes a game of patience and punishment. Myself personally, I will throw out a Soul Crush and allow Joker to dash in until they get into Singularity range. If I throw it out and they block, I expect another dash and then punish with Soul Crush into a combo. It allows for not only damage, but puts them back with enough distance that this cycle is gonna repeat over and over until Joker gets in and does his dirty work. Now, I do need to practice what she can do to escape the corner, but as far as the midscreen game, Joker can't do much of anything to her.

Now I am not insulting you but if you're on psn can we play? I'm curious to see how Raven can bully Joker extremely without trait? Singularity is an ass projectile and the only reason I respect it is because it recovers fast enough for soul crush which is what I wait for you to do to get in. Once I'm in range mb b3 or f3ing through whatever you throw at me isn't a issue just dash and punish you. I'm curious to see how great she is without trait because when played ducky getting in and doing my dirty work was nowhere near as hard. I can't talk for my community on how I approach Raven but i myself am very cautious because theres only so much she can do without trait active. I really am curious to see a good raven without trait use though so if you are on psn lets play for sure.

 

[VGMtheVagabond]

Now I am not insulting you but if you're on psn can we play?

I would, but we (Fromundaman and I) still don't have a PS3. Our friendly Mexican has it.

Spoiler

not racist

Also:

Singularity is an ass projectile

Singularity =/= Shadow Raven. Singularity is lift.

Once I'm in range mb b3 or f3ing through whatever you throw at me isn't a issue just dash and punish you.

I'm pretty sure if I throw a bird and you mb through it and dash, I could catch you with soul crush (lift takes too long), but that's something I would have to test out to be sure.

 

[Vengeance135]

Im talking about in my swinging range andit works depending on what you do. Thank you for the correction btw lol i always get them mixed up and Im definitely not saying that Raven is free without trait because she is still a threat but when she is in trait its her game and Joker has to play it, more or less. Damn xbox lol. I would say that @EMPEROR_SHAOLIN is the only Raven I play that doesnt use trait consistently unless he uses it for offense because his Raven is hella offensive for the most part. He does try to lame me out but in the end we just go blow for blow. He is an awesome Raven player as well. @VGMtheVagabond

 

[VGMtheVagabond]

Oh I understand. I lame @Fromundaman out (until I screw up). I know Raven isn't free without her trait, I play pretty strong with her, and unless there's a particular matchup or certain setups I want to do, I always neglect trait. I am fortunate enough to have two Jokers to play this match up with (@AL Eevee being the second, but he's gone for a few weeks) and I know it very well, it just always comes down to mind games and execution. I honestly wish we recorded out set this past Thursday to post, but unfortunately, we need recording equipment. Gotta get dat M2k money.

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

So can someone please explain to me how to Play the Black Adam MU.

 

[Zoidberg747]

@Blind_Man Just woke up, let me get back into this freshly.

You're basically saying that you are walking back and even though I'm cautious, I will eventually be caught once with a whiff punish into 40%, back to fullscreen and given you back a lot of space, yes?

Footsies is not just us walking back. We walk back, walk forward to bait you into movement or an attack, and soul crush. Then the process repeats. And then even if you do get us to the corner we will just pushblock and you have to deal with b23. If we block anything in the corner we can go for a throw and get you into the corner, which restarts the whole process, or armor any options(You could obviously tech or beat this on a read, but it is not like she doesnt have ANY options).

This all assumes Joker can even get her to the corner, which is a pretty big assumption. Not only can she outzone him. she can outfootsie him because of her superior walkspeed. If he gets in we have 3-4 bars ready to pushblock or armor through his attacks, starting the whole process over. If you knock us down in trait and are not careful we have a fully invincible teleports that will switch sides and restart the whole process.

I agree that she gets raped in the corner but quite frankly that is what makes it not 7-3. I have played this offline many times and have never really struggled, and I am certainly not the model Raven by any means. I am very confident this matchup is 6-4 Raven.

 

[Vengeance135]

@Zoidberg747 I agree with what yoy are saying for the most part. I must ask this though, are you on PSN?? There are very few Ravens on PSN which are ducky, Shaolin, ShoveCatsUpMyAss (thats his actual name and hes crazy good) and a few others. If you are we need to play lol