Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Vengeance135]

LOL 3 7 vs BM? I think you over exaggerating lol BM only beats joker 6 4 all you gotta do his knock his ass down and let the show BEGAN!!!!!!!

I am going to tag you when the BM discussion begins lol

 

[OnlineRon91]

I am going to work on dealing with and punishing Zod's projectiles in the same way as these characters http://testyourmight.com/threads/dealing-with-and-punishing-zoners.38760/

Hopefully that helps flesh out the match-up somewhat for others as it will definitely help me personally.

Also, @StevoSuprem0, great work so far on the OP. Having the averages is pretty cool, I didn't know that was the original goal (probably missed that post).

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I am going to work on dealing with and punishing Zod's projectiles in the same way as these characters http://testyourmight.com/threads/dealing-with-and-punishing-zoners.38760/

Hopefully that helps flesh out the match-up somewhat for others as it will definitely help me personally.

Also, @StevoSuprem0, great work so far on the OP. Having the averages is pretty cool, I didn't know that was the original goal (probably missed that post).

Sweet, thanks man.
Yeah, I figured looking at it kinda statistically would help us see where we disagree on things and give us a place to start, and would gather all of our matchup charts in one place rather than having "Today's Chode's X-Character Matchup Chart" every other day...

 

[StevoSuprem0]

First off, thank you Steve0 for the work you have already put into this post.

Now onto the meat of the matter...


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I've said it many times before, but I don't think Zod is a bad matchup.

Gunshot trades favorably with all of his ranged options and stuffs them if timed right. As a result holding the gun out prevents Zod from doing anything but trying to bait out the shot. This in turn allows us to dash cancel to approach if need be, or simply stall it out if we have a significant life lead. If Zod crouches the gunshot, he can call trait in between shots, which is kind of a big deal though.
Also if you allow him to get a slow grounded Zod ball on screen then you are forced to show it at least some respect.
Neutral jump MB Zod Balls will also guarantee Zod a trait call, but you can trade with it by holding the gun out and shooting him on his way down (You do more damage) then doing wakeup gunshot to punish the trait call (Trait still comes out, but you got 16% out of it instead of eating chip then dealing with trait anyway).

That said, with the exception of interactible setups and the guaranteed chip setups, there are ways to escape and sometimes even punish all of Zod's trait shenanigans (even if you aren't Batgirl!), so depending on the stage the trait call in not always a game changer.



On stages with corner interactibles like Ferris or Batcave, we can outzone Zod very heavily, using gun to stall out time and trade until the next missile comes back, then trading missiles for whatever Zod does.


Once we are in, we outpressure him pretty hard, we outrange him, and we have a better post-knockdown game. In the corner this is all amplified.
That said, his D2 is really good at keeping us out of the air, so don't be too predictable with your jumping (Pig was murdering me for this).

We also destroy him on knockdown, but you do have to go into the lab to see how to beat Zod charge. Prior to playing Pig, I thought Zod's wakeups were as bad as Raven's or Aquaman's. While they are not good by any stretch, they are still considerably better than what those two have, and as such you do need specific setups to stuff everything while keeping it hard to block.
Best ones IMO are anything that involves a crossup jump 2 which timed to reverse inputs so as to mess up force palm's inputs while making zod charge auto-correct (And it will lose to j2s) to punish that as well.

His parry is annoying since it can interrupt our pressure, but it's super punishable on whiff and I don't think he actually gets anything off of it.



... I'm probably forgetting stuff but it's 4 AM, so I'm going to end this here.

@Fromundaman depending on the speed of his Zod balls and what he's doing prior, throwing revolver is just recklessness to say the least. Revolver trades always work out in his favor even if its not by damage, I thought it did until I played higher level Zods like Dave, knife ability and Maze and labbed his options. Side arm and revolver can trade when you see it coming and ducking revolver for trait call is a huge deal. When using IA Zod balls, which are safe depending on the speed, he can also go for ground laser while the ball is out. Which is giving him so much advantage and pushing you away at the game time. Also once you are within his range you have to commit to how you get in either by jump or whatever you do and Zods backdash is like prepatch BA, his force push bullshit and D2 serve well as an AA which really means you still have to inch even in swing range because all great Zod players pushblock any swing Joker takes to keep him away and they also have the meter to do so. I agree that when you knock him down, if you can mix it up well enough or if he has no meter then hes fucked. 11 anything punishes Zod charge, you can neutral jump and full punish the force push whatever that shit is but even guessing at what he will do on wake up is to be respected. You can MB whatever through it but if he does nothing he'll just pushblock and you are back to square one. Also outzone Zod? No way unless you have a HUGE life lead. Ferris is Zods playground because of all the interactables there and the missiles can be neutral jumped to Zod ball and guess what? Now you gotta respect that shit and Batcave is definitely a good stage to fight him on because it has a BGB and its small but if he sends you to level transition for get about it. Any level that is small gives Joker a bit more of a fighting chance but if its stacked with interactables forget about it. Also Zods trait is only a bit of the problem, its what kind of respect you have to show him when its out. Blocking his trait mixups aren't problematic unless you are online. Sorry if I sounded like an asshole its not my intention bro lol fired up discussion

This is a rare occasion in which I actually agree with @General M2Dave, and would like to see what you think of @Fromundaman 's post just above yours. If we're doing numbers, I'm somewhere between the 4-6 and 3-7 camp.

I agree that gunshot is a good tool to help control the pace of the match. Zod balls should always get punished, which make IAZB's pretty useless for him in this fight unless he does some sort of setup into them to maintain pressure. Sidearm is always something you have to watch out for, but if you're keeping him pinned down with gunshots, you should be able to beat it out. Sidearm trades (maybe only MB? can't remember) are in his favor, so you have to respect them and duck after. We can also punish poor trait summon attempts pretty easily and, as Fro pointed out, trade in some situations to sometimes even stuff the trait summon. However, once he ducks a gunshot or reads a dash, it becomes his turn, because he can keep us pinned with balls and sidearms as well or better than we can him with gun shenanigans.

However, once he has trait out, I disagree that there is a whole lot we (or most characters, really) are able to do about it. He gets insane control of interactables. He pins you with trait punches that allow him to move in and out of pressure as he sees fit. And there's always the trait grab/lasers 50/50, which I'm fairly confident is decently reactable offline, but is probably impossible to deal with online. Any time he catches you with a combo, he can waste so much time that he is almost able to resummon the trait and put us right back into his wherever-he-want-to-be-on-the-screen-pressure.

When we're in, yeah, I agree that we kinda control the fight from that part. We have longer reaching normals in d2, d3, and crowbar. We have guaranteed teeth setups from 212 xx teeth, 113 xx teeth, and a few other ways. We have decent mixup to get around his parry. But we absolutely MUST take advantage of these moments, because if we get put full screen again, we gotta navigate that zoning forest again and all he needs to do is make one good read to keep us pinned down. On KD, we can bully all day, but remember to play around parries. If you go for a teeth-> MB f3 setup, you generally wanna make the teeth hit first so that even if he manages to block, he can't parry it, and if he tries, he's eating 47% or a bit less into another setup. In the corner, he is absolutely boned.

That's my take.

@AK Pig Of The Hut I'm not sure if you're back or not, but I'd like to hear your thoughts/responses to some of these talking points. You've been a proponent of this matchup being severely in Zod's favor, but different people that have played you and Dave have both come up with pretty varied conclusions, and I'm curious what you think about the fight and whether your opinion has changed much over the past few months.

 

[MidTierHarley]

Im so confued what is the difference between Fromunduman and Eeve lol

 

[The PantyChrist]

I agree pushblock is underrated in this mu. It puts joker back in a range where he has to take a risk again to get in

 

[Fromundaman]

Thank you for giving me intelligent debates and not "No. You're just wrong, go play Pig". Here comes my typical wall of text. I'm also replying by topic so I may be replying to quotes from multiple people at once at some points.

@Fromundaman depending on the speed of his Zod balls and what he's doing prior, throwing revolver is just recklessness to say the least. Revolver trades always work out in his favor even if its not by damage, I thought it did until I played higher level Zods like Dave, knife ability and Maze and labbed his options.

I agree that gunshot is a good tool to help control the pace of the match. Zod balls should always get punished, which make IAZB's pretty useless for him in this fight unless he does some sort of setup into them to maintain pressure. Sidearm is always something you have to watch out for, but if you're keeping him pinned down with gunshots, you should be able to beat it out. Sidearm trades (maybe only MB? can't remember) are in his favor, so you have to respect them and duck after. We can also punish poor trait summon attempts pretty easily and, as Fro pointed out, trade in some situations to sometimes even stuff the trait summon. However, once he ducks a gunshot or reads a dash, it becomes his turn, because he can keep us pinned with balls and sidearms as well or better than we can him with gun shenanigans.

Unless you're late on your gunshot, gunshot trades will ALWAYS be in our favor, whether Zod MBs sidearm or not (MB gets shut down before the extra bullets come out, meaning he loses meter for nothing).

With a slow Zod ball out, Zod has a lot more options and at that point yeah, trading may not be a good idea BUT if you are keeping the gun held out to pin him down and alternating between randomly timed shots, punishes when you see him start a move and dash cancels, then he shouldn't have time to start his billion frame startup kryptonian rifle (Even IA one gets beat on reaction by gunshot, and that one doesn't have a huge startup). The only times I was seeing a grounded Zod ball were when he had trait, ended combo into a zod ball setup, or if I made a big mistake.

However, once he has trait out, I disagree that there is a whole lot we (or most characters, really) are able to do about it. He gets insane control of interactables. He pins you with trait punches that allow him to move in and out of pressure as he sees fit. And there's always the trait grab/lasers 50/50, which I'm fairly confident is decently reactable offline, but is probably impossible to deal with online. Any time he catches you with a combo, he can waste so much time that he is almost able to resummon the trait and put us right back into his wherever-he-want-to-be-on-the-screen-pressure.

Interactible control is definitely a problem. I completely agree with this. I would even go as far as to say it's the biggest problem when dealing with Zod's trait.
The full screen laser 50/50 is really easy to react to offline; just watch zod and block high the moment you see him move.
He has some string where he can end it in an overhead punch or a low breath and combo into trait. If you don't pushblock before he gets to that hit, then you deserved the combo.
If he shoots an IA zod ball and follows it, don't pushblock until the Zod ball gets to you (Unless it's a slow one at which point you can pushblock and recover), then pushblock that.
Now admittedly, he can MB F3/B3 to counter push blocking, but that is not a mindgame that costs both sides a bar and costs him trait since he gets nothing if he is wrong.

The best mixup I saw used though was the simplest one: Walking up to me and either doing a low or a trait grab. If you block the grab then that's a full combo punish, but guess wrong and it's a full combo punish. I actually need to go into the lab with this and see if there's any sort of tell to help me react to the animation. You may also be able to MB F3 through it, but I'd need to go into the lab and test this.

Side arm and revolver can trade when you see it coming and ducking revolver for trait call is a huge deal.

I agree completely. If he couldn't do that we would dominate this MU. In fact at one point I didn't know Zod *could* do that, which was why I thought Joker won it easy.

When using IA Zod balls, which are safe depending on the speed, he can also go for ground laser while the ball is out. Which is giving him so much advantage and pushing you away at the game time.

This is true, but this is a case where trading gunshot with the zod ball is worth it to stop the laser and make him waste a bar. That said the situation is very dependent on range and speed of the ball. For example, at full screen this doesn't work regardless of speed (for the fast one neutral jump then gunshot to punish MB laser; that frame trap only works if you jump forward and you will beat MB laser if you just neutral jump the ball at that range. For the others trade in your favor.). From closer, you kind of have to both guess depending on where you are, because a forward jump over a Zod ball and a neutral jump require a different Laser positioning to punish, and if he guesses wrong on that you're in for free (Zod players, confirm this for me; this is something I've only tried against the local Zods). If he guesses wrong you eat laser + side arm or trait call.

Also once you are within his range you have to commit to how you get in either by jump or whatever you do and Zods backdash is like prepatch BA, his force push bullshit and D2 serve well as an AA which really means you still have to inch even in swing range because all great Zod players pushblock any swing Joker takes to keep him away and they also have the meter to do so.

While I agree with this, we are interpreting this very differently. Every meter he spends pushblocking me is meter he can't spend on MB Zod Balls, MB Lasers, which he NEEDS to keep us out, or MB B3, which helps him a lot in getting us back out if we do get in. Also it barely sends me anywhere, and after a pushblock he kind of has to backdash; anything else and he risks a ji3 punish. Of course, if you read the backdash then you can punish that with gunshot.
Also all of this pushes him closer to the corner.

I agree that when you knock him down, if you can mix it up well enough or if he has no meter then hes fucked. 11 anything punishes Zod charge, you can neutral jump and full punish the force push whatever that shit is but even guessing at what he will do on wake up is to be respected. You can MB whatever through it but if he does nothing he'll just pushblock and you are back to square one.

True, but after playing Pig and experiencing the fact that I actually did have to guess between whether or not Zod was going to wake up and with what, I decided "fuck that, I'm bad at guessing" and went into the lab to find setups that cover all options. For example, the setup I put in the chat as an example for how to stuff GL's wakeups works very well on Zod.

When we're in, yeah, I agree that we kinda control the fight from that part. We have longer reaching normals in d2, d3, and crowbar. We have guaranteed teeth setups from 212 xx teeth, 113 xx teeth, and a few other ways. We have decent mixup to get around his parry. But we absolutely MUST take advantage of these moments, because if we get put full screen again, we gotta navigate that zoning forest again and all he needs to do is make one good read to keep us pinned down. On KD, we can bully all day, but remember to play around parries. If you go for a teeth-> MB f3 setup, you generally wanna make the teeth hit first so that even if he manages to block, he can't parry it, and if he tries, he's eating 47% or a bit less into another setup. In the corner, he is absolutely boned.

That's my take.

Agreed.

Also outzone Zod? No way unless you have a HUGE life lead. Ferris is Zods playground because of all the interactables there and the missiles can be neutral jumped to Zod ball and guess what? Now you gotta respect that shit and Batcave is definitely a good stage to fight him on because it has a BGB and its small but if he sends you to level transition for get about it. Any level that is small gives Joker a bit more of a fighting chance but if its stacked with interactables forget about it.

You do need a decent life lead to outzone Zod, but you have to understand what I mean by outzone. Maybe it's just me, but when I am playing to outzone someone with Joker, I am not aiming to run out all of their health necessarily, just run out the time since we can hold gunshot for a long ass time and punish any attempts at anything when gun is out on reaction. In that sense, it's actually not hard to outzone Zod with a decent (30+%) lifelead and force him to have to come to you.

That said, trust me, I understand how bad Ferris can be. I had some lifebars where the match started, I got hit into an interactible, would turn and go "Well that sucks.", to which Pig would do some silly trait shenanigans and reply "No, THIS sucks." as I lost the last of my healthbar.

However, @AK Pig Of The Hut can probably confirm that we both had interactible shenanigans on that stage, and in fact all of the very few games where I managed to fraud my way to a win were from zoning with those corner rockets. (Am I credible now that I can name drop too?)
Yes you can jump them, but use them as an extension of gunshot. Keep him pinned down with the gun, then use the rocket to punish whatever he tries to do in between gunshots. If he does jump and MB Zod ball, then trade zod ball for rocket on his way back down (By the way, never ever EVER respect jump Zod Balls unless the trade will kill you. You can trade with super, revolver and interactibles by releasing when he's coming back down and in every scenario trading is way better than blocking them. Hell for the slow zod balls you can shoot him on his way down and STILL block them.).

That said it depends on the stacked with interactible stages. For example I would not want to fight him on WatchTower ever, but I think the roombas on HoJ will help us more than hurt us (Didn't play this MU at top level on this stage though, so that is speculation).

Also Zods trait is only a bit of the problem, its what kind of respect you have to show him when its out. Blocking his trait mixups aren't problematic unless you are online.

Agree 100%

Sorry if I sounded like an asshole its not my intention bro lol fired up discussion

You don't. Thanks for actually discussing this with me.



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Unrelated things:

Cyborg is most likely a 5-5. Cyborg loses 4-6 at worst. But losing 3-7 is ridiculous lol

Also, I think Zod-Joker is around a 6-4, 7-3 is a worst case scenario

You will have to enlighten me when we get to that MU, because I don't see it.

Im so confued what is the difference between Fromunduman and Eeve lol

We're different people? We have the same scene though and our MU opinions are fairly similar so we got lumped into the same chart despite a couple differences.
I can understand your confusion though as Eevee was at one point using my XBLive account to play online as he didn't have an Xbox of his own.

Pushblocking in this game is a way underutilized tool lol but definitely benefits a lot of heavy zoning characters, especially in the Joker MU.

Agreed. I actually have encouraged my scene to do it all of the time. It makes Raven in particular a bitch to deal with.

 

[MidTierHarley]

Thank you for giving me intelligent debates and not "No. You're just wrong, go play Pig". Here comes my typical wall of text. I'm also replying by topic so I may be replying to quotes from multiple people at once at some points.





Unless you're late on your gunshot, gunshot trades will ALWAYS be in our favor, whether Zod MBs sidearm or not (MB gets shut down before the extra bullets come out, meaning he loses meter for nothing).

With a slow Zod ball out, Zod has a lot more options and at that point yeah, trading may not be a good idea BUT if you are keeping the gun held out to pin him down and alternating between randomly timed shots, punishes when you see him start a move and dash cancels, then he shouldn't have time to start his billion frame startup kryptonian rifle (Even IA one gets beat on reaction by gunshot, and that one doesn't have a huge startup). The only times I was seeing a grounded Zod ball were when he had trait, ended combo into a zod ball setup, or if I made a big mistake.




Interactible control is definitely a problem. I completely agree with this. I would even go as far as to say it's the biggest problem when dealing with Zod's trait.
The full screen laser 50/50 is really easy to react to offline; just watch zod and block high the moment you see him move.
He has some string where he can end it in an overhead punch or a low breath and combo into trait. If you don't pushblock before he gets to that hit, then you deserved the combo.
If he shoots an IA zod ball and follows it, don't pushblock until the Zod ball gets to you (Unless it's a slow one at which point you can pushblock and recover), then pushblock that.
Now admittedly, he can MB F3/B3 to counter push blocking, but that is not a mindgame that costs both sides a bar and costs him trait since he gets nothing if he is wrong.

The best mixup I saw used though was the simplest one: Walking up to me and either doing a low or a trait grab. If you block the grab then that's a full combo punish, but guess wrong and it's a full combo punish. I actually need to go into the lab with this and see if there's any sort of tell to help me react to the animation. You may also be able to MB F3 through it, but I'd need to go into the lab and test this.


I agree completely. If he couldn't do that we would dominate this MU. In fact at one point I didn't know Zod *could* do that, which was why I thought Joker won it easy.




This is true, but this is a case where trading gunshot with the zod ball is worth it to stop the laser and make him waste a bar. That said the situation is very dependent on range and speed of the ball. For example, at full screen this doesn't work regardless of speed (for the fast one neutral jump then gunshot to punish MB laser; that frame trap only works if you jump forward and you will beat MB laser if you just neutral jump the ball at that range. For the others trade in your favor.). From closer, you kind of have to both guess depending on where you are, because a forward jump over a Zod ball and a neutral jump require a different Laser positioning to punish, and if he guesses wrong on that you're in for free (Zod players, confirm this for me; this is something I've only tried against the local Zods). If he guesses wrong you eat laser + side arm or trait call.



While I agree with this, we are interpreting this very differently. Every meter he spends pushblocking me is meter he can't spend on MB Zod Balls, MB Lasers, which he NEEDS to keep us out, or MB B3, which helps him a lot in getting us back out if we do get in. Also it barely sends me anywhere, and after a pushblock he kind of has to backdash; anything else and he risks a ji3 punish. Of course, if you read the backdash then you can punish that with gunshot.
Also all of this pushes him closer to the corner.



True, but after playing Pig and experiencing the fact that I actually did have to guess between whether or not Zod was going to wake up and with what, I decided "fuck that, I'm bad at guessing" and went into the lab to find setups that cover all options. For example, the setup I put in the chat as an example for how to stuff GL's wakeups works very well on Zod.


Agreed.




You do need a decent life lead to outzone Zod, but you have to understand what I mean by outzone. Maybe it's just me, but when I am playing to outzone someone with Joker, I am not aiming to run out all of their health necessarily, just run out the time since we can hold gunshot for a long ass time and punish any attempts at anything when gun is out on reaction. In that sense, it's actually not hard to outzone Zod with a decent (30+%) lifelead and force him to have to come to you.

That said, trust me, I understand how bad Ferris can be. I had some lifebars where the match started, I got hit into an interactible, would turn and go "Well that sucks.", to which Pig would do some silly trait shenanigans and reply "No, THIS sucks." as I lost the last of my healthbar.

However, @AK Pig Of The Hut can probably confirm that we both had interactible shenanigans on that stage, and in fact all of the very few games where I managed to fraud my way to a win were from zoning with those corner rockets. (Am I credible now that I can name drop too?)
Yes you can jump them, but use them as an extension of gunshot. Keep him pinned down with the gun, then use the rocket to punish whatever he tries to do in between gunshots. If he does jump and MB Zod ball, then trade zod ball for rocket on his way back down (By the way, never ever EVER respect jump Zod Balls unless the trade will kill you. You can trade with super, revolver and interactibles by releasing when he's coming back down and in every scenario trading is way better than blocking them. Hell for the slow zod balls you can shoot him on his way down and STILL block them.).

That said it depends on the stacked with interactible stages. For example I would not want to fight him on WatchTower ever, but I think the roombas on HoJ will help us more than hurt us (Didn't play this MU at top level on this stage though, so that is speculation).



Agree 100%




You don't. Thanks for actually discussing this with me.



__________________
Unrelated things:



You will have to enlighten me when we get to that MU, because I don't see it.




We're different people? We have the same scene though and our MU opinions are fairly similar so we got lumped into the same chart despite a couple differences.
I can understand your confusion though as Eevee was at one point using my XBLive account to play online as he didn't have an Xbox of his own.




Agreed. I actually have encouraged my scene to do it all of the time. It makes Raven in particular a bitch to deal with.

Ok haha i remember i played him and he was on your GT so i was confused thanks for clearing that up.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Thank you for giving me intelligent debates and not "No. You're just wrong, go play Pig". Here comes my typical wall of text. I'm also replying by topic so I may be replying to quotes from multiple people at once at some points.

Purpose of the thread

Unless you're late on your gunshot, gunshot trades will ALWAYS be in our favor, whether Zod MBs sidearm or not (MB gets shut down before the extra bullets come out, meaning he loses meter for nothing).

What I (and I believe Vengeance as well) meant by favor was that traded Siderarm/BANG! exchanges leave him at alot more advantage than ours, since Sidearms has way more hit advantage than BANG! does. This means that any time you get hit by one, you need to duck, because he's beating you out if you try to pull the gun back out, which puts him back at advantage in the zoning war. That bit plays kinda like the Sinestro matchup IMO, with the exception that you can duck it anywhere on the screen.

The full screen laser 50/50 is really easy to react to offline; just watch zod and block high the moment you see him move.
He has some string where he can end it in an overhead punch or a low breath and combo into trait. If you don't pushblock before he gets to that hit, then you deserved the combo.
If he shoots an IA zod ball and follows it, don't pushblock until the Zod ball gets to you (Unless it's a slow one at which point you can pushblock and recover), then pushblock that.
Now admittedly, he can MB F3/B3 to counter push blocking, but that is not a mindgame that costs both sides a bar and costs him trait since he gets nothing if he is wrong.

The best mixup I saw used though was the simplest one: Walking up to me and either doing a low or a trait grab. If you block the grab then that's a full combo punish, but guess wrong and it's a full combo punish. I actually need to go into the lab with this and see if there's any sort of tell to help me react to the animation. You may also be able to MB F3 through it, but I'd need to go into the lab and test this.

While I agree on the full screen 50/50, I find that it still does catch me at times, but that's probably just me getting too anxious more than anything else. It's still a really strong tool that he can exploit.
And regarding the up close 50/50's, the only time you should be able to full combo punish is if he tries for the overhead (trait grab). Anything else he can either cover with trait punches or block confirm into a safe Phantom Strike (force push thing). Once the trait goes away, he's all ours, but the up close fight isn't THAT much in our favor because he can still threaten with parry and d12 for really good punishes, and put us fullscreen again very easily any time he catches us with something.

This is true, but this is a case where trading gunshot with the zod ball is worth it to stop the laser and make him waste a bar. That said the situation is very dependent on range and speed of the ball. For example, at full screen this doesn't work regardless of speed (for the fast one neutral jump then gunshot to punish MB laser; that frame trap only works if you jump forward and you will beat MB laser if you just neutral jump the ball at that range. For the others trade in your favor.). From closer, you kind of have to both guess depending on where you are, because a forward jump over a Zod ball and a neutral jump require a different Laser positioning to punish, and if he guesses wrong on that you're in for free (Zod players, confirm this for me; this is something I've only tried against the local Zods). If he guesses wrong you eat laser + side arm or trait call.

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure if they can react to how you jump the ZB in time to change their laser punish (Zods I play have), but I'm not positive because I may have just been predictable.

You do need a decent life lead to outzone Zod, but you have to understand what I mean by outzone. Maybe it's just me, but when I am playing to outzone someone with Joker, I am not aiming to run out all of their health necessarily, just run out the time since we can hold gunshot for a long ass time and punish any attempts at anything when gun is out on reaction. In that sense, it's actually not hard to outzone Zod with a decent (30+%) lifelead and force him to have to come to you.

I think what we can do with gunshot is more just changing the pace of the zoning war, not really controlling it or outzoning him. I agree with you assessment of having to trade with him rather than respect and block. This is something that I also do whenever I can, and it makes the zoning war feel alot better and works well to prevent free trait summons. As soon as he gets that out, however, the fight can get real stupid real fast, so any time you mess up, you're in trouble, whereas the same situation from his perspective risks 8%, which is much less problematic.

That said it depends on the stacked with interactible stages. For example I would not want to fight him on WatchTower ever, but I think the roombas on HoJ will help us more than hurt us (Didn't play this MU at top level on this stage though, so that is speculation).

They're just as good for him due to trait shenanigans, trust me


I'm curious how many of you play the zoning matchup like this, where you disrespect his projectiles as much as possible and trade rather than block to suppress trait. I had to get used to working around sidearm, but once I did, the fight felt alot better. I still think the fight is in his favor, but I can see the disadvantage being much more slight when trait is kept in check. What sucks is he'll still eventually be able to get it out, even if he eats 8% in the process, and then the match is his to control IMO.

 

[Fromundaman]

Purpose of the thread

What I (and I believe Vengeance as well) meant by favor was that traded Siderarm/BANG! exchanges leave him at alot more advantage than ours, since Sidearms has way more hit advantage than BANG! does. This means that any time you get hit by one, you need to duck, because he's beating you out if you try to pull the gun back out, which puts him back at advantage in the zoning war. That bit plays kinda like the Sinestro matchup IMO, with the exception that you can duck it anywhere on the screen.

I agree with almost everything you said, but this is wrong. No matter how you time it, if BANG and sidearm trade, you can always trade another if you both pull out the guns again.
I think this has to do with the fact that our projectile travels faster, but this will ALWAYS be the case.

Last time we talked about this I even had someone who had never played the game pick Joker and mash out gunshot over and over while I tried to vary sidearm timings and MB vs non MB. We traded every single time except when he messed up an input due to not actually being a fighting game player.

Hop into training mode next time you can and see for yourself. This is really easy to test.

 

[oNe87_Kentucky]

Look guys I'm all for the discussion thing but I refuse to read anything over 15 lines.

 

[Fromundaman]

Look guys I'm all for the discussion thing but I refuse to read anything over 15 lines.

That's going to make this difficult... I don't know if I can type anything under 15 lines...
The comment under my name says it all...

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I don't understand why you people think Raven-Joker is 5-5.

 

[Qwark28]

I don't understand why you people think Raven-Joker is 5-5.

Joker has an infinite on her in the corner out of pretty much every knockdown. One of few things that make this even IMO.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Joker has an infinite on her in the corner out of pretty much every knockdown. One of few things that make this even IMO.

Okay. You don't start out in the corner. You have to deal with her shit for an eternity and then maybe you get her in the corner. She outfootsies and outzones joker. How's that even?

 

[Qwark28]

Okay. You don't start out in the corner. You have to deal with her shit for an eternity and then maybe you get her in the corner. She outfootsies and outzones joker. How's that even?

Raven is constantly walking backwards, it will take an eternity to get in with her zoning and meter but one touch is all it takes to carry her all the way to the corner where he can set up this character-specific meterless infinite on her while still building meter. Said infinite is low damage and loopable, meaning that Joker will build a lot of meter until he kills you.

She doesn't outfootsie Joker, J3, J1, D3 and D2 are excelent footsie tools and reach as far as jump distance. Her F2 and lift are pretty good, but he has better buttons.

Besides, getting to the corner and instantly dying is pretty much a giant advantage switch in any matchup.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Raven is constantly walking backwards, it will take an eternity to get in with her zoning and meter but one touch is all it takes to carry her all the way to the corner where he can set up this character-specific meterless infinite on her while still building meter. Said infinite is low damage and loopable, meaning that Joker will build a lot of meter until he kills you.

She doesn't outfootsie Joker, J3, J1, D3 and D2 are excelent footsie tools and reach as far as jump distance. Her F2 and lift are pretty good, but he has better buttons.

Besides, getting to the corner and instantly dying is pretty much a giant advantage switch in any matchup.

If you think she's going to be holding back the whole time and using f2 like that, then you know nothing about the character or match up. Lift alone basically beats all your options mid screen, on top of that she has b23. You don't have any good options against her zoning, she also has set ups on knockdown against the joker. You have one good thing against her and that's it. That does not make the match up even, especially when you'll be struggling to get her into that situation.

 

[Qwark28]

If you think she's going to be holding back the whole time and using f2 like that, then you know nothing about the character or match up. Lift alone basically beats all your options mid screen, on top of that she has b23. You don't have any good options against her zoning, she also has set ups on knockdown against the joker. You have one good thing against her and that's it. That does not make the match up even, especially when you'll be struggling to get her into that situation.

Not the entire time but when she is chased. F2 like what? I didn't name a situation, just said he outranges it, the exact same thing he does to B2. Both lift and B2 are slower than all the buttons I mentioned.

She does have setups, true but Joker does not have just one good thing, this is why I said that little infinite is just one of many things. He can combos that wallcarry over half the stage and end in ambiguous crossups that are entirely dependent on which button he presses which also serve to stuff her wakeups. The only time Raven is ever able to wake up is when the Joker player is going for an unsafe jump and that's it.

Lift is good, it's also -10 or so and when blocked Joker can start with his frametraps and setups. Both have very decent moves, Joker has more buttons to use and they all lead to a minimum of 3 different setups. Once Joker catches you with any knockdown he can start his high damage 50-50s which on hit pretty much end the round if the previous combo was 40%+

My view of this matchup is

Spacing - Raven adv
Zoning - Raven adv
Close up - Joker adv
Knockdown usefulness - Joker adv

I could see this being 6-4 Raven if the Raven player has combos that switch sides with trait and safely.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

If you think she's going to be holding back the whole time and using f2 like that, then you know nothing about the character or match up. Lift alone basically beats all your options mid screen, on top of that she has b23. You don't have any good options against her zoning, she also has set ups on knockdown against the joker. You have one good thing against her and that's it. That does not make the match up even, especially when you'll be struggling to get her into that situation.

What Jokers do you fight, out of curiosity?

 

[Qwark28]

And when it comes to stages, I'm thinking 6-4 Raven in stages like hall of justice and 6-4 Joker in stages like fortress of solitude.

 

[Fromundaman]

Shouldn't we do one MU at a time?

That said, this is a MU I play pretty often, so I do have a lot to say about it when we get to it. This MU pretty much always goes to time though.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I agree with almost everything you said, but this is wrong. No matter how you time it, if BANG and sidearm trade, you can always trade another if you both pull out the guns again.
I think this has to do with the fact that our projectile travels faster, but this will ALWAYS be the case.

Last time we talked about this I even had someone who had never played the game pick Joker and mash out gunshot over and over while I tried to vary sidearm timings and MB vs non MB. We traded every single time except when he messed up an input due to not actually being a fighting game player.

Hop into training mode next time you can and see for yourself. This is really easy to test.

I do remember now that we had this discussion before.... idk, I remember testing it and looking at the frame data, and not seeing what you see from either. I'll check it again soon! It's possible that I was having this problem when I was playing a friend online (uncharacteristically...), so it might have been attributed to that, but I'm almost positive I ran sets offline too and took it into training. Will get back to you!

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Not the entire time but when she is chased. F2 like what? I didn't name a situation, just said he outranges it, the exact same thing he does to B2. Both lift and B2 are slower than all the buttons I mentioned.

She does have setups, true but Joker does not have just one good thing, this is why I said that little infinite is just one of many things. He can combos that wallcarry over half the stage and end in ambiguous crossups that are entirely dependent on which button he presses which also serve to stuff her wakeups. The only time Raven is ever able to wake up is when the Joker player is going for an unsafe jump and that's it.

Lift is good, it's also -10 or so and when blocked Joker can start with his frametraps and setups. Both have very decent moves, Joker has more buttons to use and they all lead to a minimum of 3 different setups. Once Joker catches you with any knockdown he can start his high damage 50-50s which on hit pretty much end the round if the previous combo was 40%+

My view of this matchup is

Spacing - Raven adv
Zoning - Raven adv
Close up - Joker adv
Knockdown usefulness - Joker adv

I could see this being 6-4 Raven if the Raven player has combos that switch sides with trait and safely.

Yeah you out range me if I'm not moving back and you have nothing to keep me from holding back. It doesn't matter at all because she just walks out of range of your whatever and whiff punishes it with crush or lift. If you block lift from max range you don't get anything off it.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Shouldn't we do one MU at a time?

That said, this is a MU I play pretty often, so I do have a lot to say about it when we get to it. This MU pretty much always goes to time though.

This was bound to happen lol. I was just gonna wait until the randoms/trolls subsided, but we can multitask. I'll sort it out later. Go ham!

 

[Blind_Ducky]

What Jokers do you fight, out of curiosity?

Don't even try this shit. Especially when I can say the same to you because I know you have never played me. And to answer your question I've played dark and vengeance.