Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Qwark28]

Yeah you out range me if I'm not moving back and you have nothing to keep me from holding back. It doesn't matter at all because she just walks out of range of your whatever and whiff punishes it with crush or lift. If you block lift from max range you don't get anything off it.

I get a blocked D2 into teeth, gunshot, cancels, crowbar etc. I also get a hit confirmable J3 on whiff or block.

If you keep holding back I hold forward, this is exactly what I mean when I say you hold back too much and you reach the corner too soon.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

If you think she's going to be holding back the whole time....

Yeah you out range me if I'm not moving back and you have nothing to keep me from holding back.

Riiight. Well, if you just walking back, what's to stop you from getting cornered? Blocked lift is a dash, blocked crush is a dash or gunshot punish. Non-traited projectile wars are our favor. Just have to be smart about trait situations and wait them out. He'll get in range eventually, and then you have to play his game, which is not fun when you have only stuffable wakeups.

Don't even try this shit. Especially when I can say the same to you because I know you have never played me. And to answer your question I've played dark and vengeance.

Lol not trying shit. Just trying to see where you're coming from.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I get a blocked D2 into teeth, gunshot, cancels, crowbar etc. I also get a hit confirmable J3 on whiff or block.

If you keep holding back I hold forward, this is exactly what I mean when I say you hold back too much and you reach the corner too soon.

You're taking what I'm saying too literally. You don't understand how the match up is played.

 

[Qwark28]

You're taking what I'm saying too literally. You don't understand how the match up is played.

Again, I don't mean holding back all the time or uneccesarilly. I'm merely stating that your back walk speed might be the best and one of the best tools in this game for your character archetype, but against a character who is designed to rape in the corner it also entails some sort of disadvantage.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Riiight. Well, if you just walking back, what's to stop you from getting cornered? Blocked lift is a dash, blocked crush is a dash or gunshot punish. Non-traited projectile wars are our favor. Just have to be smart about trait situations and wait them out. He'll get in range eventually, and then you have to play his game, which is not fun when you have only stuffable wakeups.

Lol not trying shit. Just trying to see where you're coming from.

Like I said to qwark, taking it too literally, you don't understand how the match up is played. You're asking me who I've played when I know you haven't played me. What Ravens have you played? Ray Riazy?

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Again, I don't mean holding back all the time or uneccesarilly. I'm merely stating that your back walk speed might be the best and one of the best tools in this game for your character archetype, but against a character who is designed to rape in the corner it also entails some sort of disadvantage.

I understand that but you make it sound like I literally walk myself to the corner, which is not what happens. Your walk speed is too slow for that to actually happen. Once again, you don't understand how this actually plays out in a match. On paper yes I walk myself to the corner, in practice, that is not what happens.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Like I said to qwark, taking it too literally, you don't understand how the match up is played. You're asking me who I've played when I know you haven't played me. What Ravens have you played? Ray Riazy?

Lol all I did was quote what you said, I never said you were holding back the whole time. I just said what happens when you switch from holding back to trying something else and we block it.
I have played Ray, and a few others I dunno the name of. I don't just base my opinion from people I've fought. I mainly base it off of the tools available to the characters, and you aren't convincing me that it's heavily in Raven's favor outside of certain stages by continually saying you don't always hold back, but always hold back and we can't do anything about it, and we dunno the matchup. Contribute to the conversation constructively, or mosey on.

 

[Vengeance135]

Holy shit there's so much going on. I stand on the Zod MU where it is. He has too much going for him against Joker. The fact that he can IA 2 Zod balls at once on the screen is crazy and everything else I said but I played M2dave which doesn't rush he only zones and from what I've seen pig is a bit more aggressive. That being said we might have to swap opponents to get a better understanding. Also the Raven MU is definitely 6-4 imo because of what that dude was saying and also because of other shit but I have a headache now from what I just read lol so I'll get back to you on it later lol

 

[Fromundaman]

Riiight. Well, if you just walking back, what's to stop you from getting cornered? Blocked lift is a dash, blocked crush is a dash or gunshot punish. Non-traited projectile wars are our favor. Just have to be smart about trait situations and wait them out. He'll get in range eventually, and then you have to play his game, which is not fun when you have only stuffable wakeups.

Non-traited projectile trades are most definitely NOT in our favor. At all. Raven has so many ways to shut down our projectiles it's not even funny.
Also you cannot punish a blocked soul crush with gun unless you're already in rather close range (She can crouch it and soul crush punish), and at that point the dash towards her is much more useful.

I'm not going into too much detail today as I've already written a novel's worth on this site today, but the matchup boils down to her walking backwards and throwing projectiles at you sometimes to keep you in place while you barely move forward or back trying to bait out a soul crush to get one single dash forward, then restart the process.

You can definitely move forward when she backs up, but you can't react to a soul crush, so if you were walking forward when she does it, you're getting caught, comboed and sent back across the screen.

Now yes, when we get in, we have a huge advantage and our corner advantage is ridiculously good, but it is very hard to get her there, even if she walks backwards all game, due to the fact she does have ways to switch sides, and there are corner interactibles on a lot of stages to allow her to get away.

Pushblocks are also huge for her as they put us back at a range where lift becomes safe and will punish everything we do.


That said, when we finally DO inch our way in, the MU becomes much, much easier and in the corner it is straight up rape. You do have to be careful about how you go in though and constantly keep her guessing since a pushblock really hurts us.

Holy shit there's so much going on. I stand on the Zod MU where it is. He has too much going for him against Joker. The fact that he can IA 2 Zod balls at once on the screen is crazy and everything else I said but I played M2dave which doesn't rush he only zones and from what I've seen pig is a bit more aggressive. That being said we might have to swap opponents to get a better understanding. Also the Raven MU is definitely 6-4 imo because of what that dude was saying and also because of other shit but I have a headache now from what I just read lol so I'll get back to you on it later lol

I have to ask, did you play this MU online or offline? I usually wouldn't ask, but I have barely ever seen M2D attend events offline and the MU is COMPLETELY different online.

For example I don't think Zod should EVER get an IA zod ball on screen offline since you can punish with gunshot on reaction AND get a free forward dash out of it.


M2Dave and Relaxed may be the only two Zods I have yet to play though, which is weird since M2D is only about 2-3 hours away from me...

 

[OG Mannimal]

Raven definitely beats Joker 6-4.

 

[Fromundaman]

Raven definitely beats Joker 6-4.

While I don't disagree, and it looked that way when we played at UFGT, do you mind explaining why? We're trying to prioritize matchup knowledge (Useful Info) over numbers (Useless Info).

 

[OG Mannimal]

While I don't disagree, and it looked that way when we played at UFGT, do you mind explaining why? We're trying to prioritize matchup knowledge (Useful Info) over numbers (Useless Info).

I can't really add anything, since Ducky has covered it all. If I see something I can contribute I will, since I'm following the argument

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Lol all I did was quote what you said, I never said you were holding back the whole time. I just said what happens when you switch from holding back to trying something else and we block it.
I have played Ray, and a few others I dunno the name of. I don't just base my opinion from people I've fought. I mainly base it off of the tools available to the characters, and you aren't convincing me that it's heavily in Raven's favor outside of certain stages by continually saying you don't always hold back, but always hold back and we can't do anything about it, and we dunno the matchup. Contribute to the conversation constructively, or mosey on.

I already explained how she outfootsies joker, the zoning should be obvious. Neither of you understand how her footsies work. You're just basing off how it looks on paper and how things look on paper makes sense but does not usually play out that way.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Non-traited projectile trades are most definitely NOT in our favor. At all. Raven has so many ways to shut down our projectiles it's not even funny.
Also you cannot punish a blocked soul crush with gun unless you're already in rather close range (She can crouch it and soul crush punish), and at that point the dash towards her is much more useful.

Hmmm. I've been able to duck her non-traited projectiles and punish/interrupt/pressure her followups, but maybe that was poor timing on other peoples part. It has 33 frames of recovery, so I was pretty sure it could be done at most ranges, but maybe I'm off, since it does more pretty slow.

The rest I agree with, it's just a mind game as to when those specials are coming. Make good reads, and you are rewarded with dashes. Once you close the gap, I think far teeth help a lot to open her up, since she can't really punish them on reaction. She's forced to walk out of them, and we get to dash in. It's worked for me before. If she tries something, she gets launched in the teeth and neutral is reset, us having dealt more damage in the trade I believe. That's mostly just theory though. I hadn't adopted that playstyle back when I was playing against a few of the Ravens around here.

 

[OG Mannimal]

Hmmm. I've been able to duck her non-traited projectiles and punish/interrupt/pressure her followups, but maybe that was poor timing on other peoples part. It has 33 frames of recovery, so I was pretty sure it could be done at most ranges, but maybe I'm off, since it does more pretty slow.

The rest I agree with, it's just a mind game as to when those specials are coming. Make good reads, and you are rewarded with dashes. Once you close the gap, I think far teeth help a lot to open her up, since she can't really punish them on reaction. She's forced to walk out of them, and we get to dash in. It's worked for me before. If she tries something, she gets launched in the teeth and neutral is reset, us having dealt more damage in the trade I believe. That's mostly just theory though. I hadn't adopted that playstyle back when I was playing against a few of the Ravens around here.

If you're whiff punishing non traited projectile from anywhere but directly in Ravens face then the Raven player is not blocking.

 

[Fromundaman]

If you're whiff punishing non traited projectile from anywhere but directly in Ravens face then the Raven player is not blocking.

I'm pretty sure you can even catch the startup of gun with soul crush afterwards from midscreen or further right?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I already explained how she outfootsies joker, the zoning should be obvious. Neither of you understand how her footsies work. You're just basing off how it looks on paper and how things look on paper makes sense but does not usually play out that way.

I can agree on 6-4, but numbers aren't what were looking to prove or disprove in this thread. We just wanna talk about strategies for going about the matchups, so excuse me if I don't give a shit about whether you have some semblance of an advantage or not. I think it might shift to at least very close to even on stages that have decent BGB's because Joker can do infinites to Raven very easily on those as well.
Does b23 have more reach than Joker's d2? I didn't think it did, but that would be problematic in the footsie game if it does. Lift is also a concern, but if you make the wrong read, Joker moves closer, so I'm ok with that. Once he's close enough to force you to deal with teeth/d3/d2/crowbar, it get's a lot more hazardous for Raven, no?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

If you're whiff punishing non traited projectile from anywhere but directly in Ravens face then the Raven player is not blocking.

I'm pretty sure you can even catch the startup of gun with soul crush afterwards from midscreen or further right?

Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Wasn't sure how slow the projectile was moving. I think the soul crush punish only works at pretty extended positions on the screen. 33 recovery + 13 startup = hella time.

 

[Fromundaman]

Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Wasn't sure how slow the projectile was moving. I think the soul crush punish only works at pretty extended positions on the screen.

Well, you can't punish it at any distance, but from half screen or closer you *might* be able to catch the startup of a soul crush?
That said at that range if Raven just holds down she can punish both a whiffed gunshot or a dash cancel, so it's still not a great idea. You're better off just getting up and trying to bait the soul crush for a dash.

 

[OG Mannimal]

I'm pretty sure you can even catch the startup of gun with soul crush afterwards from midscreen or further right?

No I don't think so, I'm trying it right now and I get hit

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I can agree on 6-4, but numbers aren't what were looking to prove or disprove in this thread. We just wanna talk about strategies for going about the matchups, so excuse me if I don't give a shit about whether you have some semblance of an advantage or not. I think it might shift to at least very close to even on stages that have decent BGB's because Joker can do infinites to Raven very easily on those as well.
Does b23 have more reach than Joker's d2? I didn't think it did, but that would be problematic in the footsie game if it does. Lift is also a concern, but if you make the wrong read, Joker moves closer, so I'm ok with that. Once he's close enough to force you to deal with teeth/d3/d2/crowbar, it get's a lot more hazardous for Raven, no?

B23 does not have more range, soul crush does, but having more range does not mean you outfootsie her. When you stop to do a d2 she continues walking out of range and whiff punishes you. There's more to footsies than just range on normals. Lift hits you out of all jump normals or trades for a full combo.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

B23 does not have more range, soul crush does, but having more range does not mean you outfootsie her. When you stop to do a d2 she continues walking out of range and whiff punishes you. There's more to footsies than just range on normals. Lift hits you out of all jump normals or trades for a full combo.

Yeah that's fair, but I wouldn't be going for footsies if I wasn't in range to at least force a block. That would just be poor spacing knowledge (not that I wouldn't do something like that, but we're talking about the matchup idealized, not my scrubby ass execution lol). If I'm in range to d2, then I'm in range to sweep/crowbar/throw teeth at you too, and I think that's the point where Raven starts to struggle.
I'd definitely agree that navigating her zoning is difficult, but what are you gonna do about Joker once he's in on you (real question, not being facetious)? Or are you just counting on the fact that her zoning and footsie tools are enough to never let Joker get close?
On a side note, it is kinda retarded that even when she trades on a lift, the player stays stuck in the animation of the move rather than just popping out. Kinda goofy looking

 

[Vengeance135]

@StevoSuprem0 if blind ducky is chemical venom on psn then I've played this MU hella against him everything he says is pretty accurate and even when Joker finally gets in one well-timed pushblock and your back at square one. I feel like a lot of you guys really underestimate the power of pushblock when playing against Zone characters. They always have meter by the time you get to them so you need to know what you are going to do and execute flawlessly. I remember the last set I played against @Blind_Man if you are chemical venom and of the 10 wins he got, I squeezed 3. Not saying this MU is like Zod but trying to disrespect a near full screen grab will get you severely fucked up especially against him. A player that commits to Zone characters, especially on his level knows that spacing of their character and knows each MU fairly well. Joker can bully Raven ridiculously on knockdown especially with the BGB mindgame but outside of that its her game until then

 

[Vengeance135]

@Fromundaman liked my response. Feeling pretty cool :tonyt

 

[Blind_Ducky]

@StevoSuprem0 if blind ducky is chemical venom on psn then I've played this MU hella against him everything he says is pretty accurate and even when Joker finally gets in one well-timed pushblock and your back at square one. I feel like a lot of you guys really underestimate the power of pushblock when playing against Zone characters. They always have meter by the time you get to them so you need to know what you are going to do and execute flawlessly. I remember the last set I played against @Blind_Man if you are chemical venom and of the 10 wins he got, I squeezed 3. Not saying this MU is like Zod but trying to disrespect a near full screen grab will get you severely fucked up especially against him. A player that commits to Zone characters, especially on his level knows that spacing of their character and knows each MU fairly well. Joker can bully Raven ridiculously on knockdown especially with the BGB mindgame but outside of that its her game until then

Yup that would be me. I agree with this. The only time joker has an advantage is if he knocks her down and it's hard to do that.