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Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
Thank you about the cyborg one lol and I'm curious about what you think about the Zod MU. I'm I missing something? Or are you going by a general sense and not by lab and MU experience. If that sounded like an asshole remark I apologize lol I meant no disrespect
It is mostly my own labbing and experience playing Jokers (although a majority online). Although I am still winning most the time, I can see how Joker footsis and spacing in the neurtral are very good against Zod. Corner is a gg against Zod with no safe wakeups and your jump ins are really good at controling space and blowing up his backdash.

The hardest part for Joker is definitely finding a way to reduce the amount of trait summons I get. I am winning because people still have lots of difficulty defending against trait just in general (online doesn't help). Basically I gets lots of free traits which almost always mean free 40% combos against the untrained. It still needs a lot of exploring before a 7-3 or 6-4 could be decreed
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
It is mostly my own labbing and experience playing Jokers (although a majority online). Although I am still winning most the time, I can see how Joker footsis and spacing in the neurtral are very good against Zod. Corner is a gg against Zod with no safe wakeups and your jump ins are really good at controling space and blowing up his backdash.

The hardest part for Joker is definitely finding a way to reduce the amount of trait summons I get. I am winning because people still have lots of difficulty defending against trait just in general (online doesn't help). Basically I gets lots of free traits which almost always mean free 40% combos against the untrained. It still needs a lot of exploring before a 7-3 or 6-4 could be decreed
I do have to say I agree with a lot of what you are saying definitely. However, I've played this MU way to much to know that trait isn't the only thing that beats Joker. Zod overall can just zone Joker out. I'm just going to discuss why I definitely feel its 7-3 based on the tools Zod has and how I've seen them used in this MU.

Zod has 3 different speeds for Zod balls which you can't tell the speed unless the ball comes out first. The start up is rather slow and can be punished by revolver but depending on the balls speed its most likely an unfavorable trade for Joker due to the ball on contact putting Joker in the air for a free trait summon.

IA balls are also another gamble yet again for Joker, except you need to read the IA ball to trade and most Zod players like Dave do fast IA balls so its unfavorable trade yet again for Joker because its a free trait summon. On reaction, you can punish IA balls but its more or less a read because they are safe way to get them on the screen.

Also the fact that Zod can get 2 balls on the screen at the same time depending on what Joker was doing and grants him either a free trait summon or continued spacing and meter building which brings me to my next point.
Side arm, particularly MB side arm can keep Joker in check and is a great way of keeping him away and from dashing in, meaning Joker legitimately has to inch his way in which leads to my point. Once Joker has Zods respect, which he will have fairly quickly because one mess up and traits out, Zod balls and the MB heat vision shit really keeps Joker out and guarantees a trait call for Zod.
Example, IA ball is out. Joker can go for a revolver shot or duck under. Joker ducks under to avoid the hit and trait call and gets MB heat vision out instead and get a trait call anyway.

Now lets say Joker gets in, Zod will definitely have at least 1 bar of meter, definitely more but I'll just say 1 for now, Jokers neutral game sucks and has no reliable way of getting in which means pushblocking any hit he throws outs you back and the shit begins again.

I've played this MU so much and every High level Zod I've played pushblocks and the worst part is Joker can't do shit unless Joker had clear contact prior to the pushblock and bounce cancels through the pushblock for some damage but even then you spend 2 bars and your execution and follows ups have to be on point and flawless for you to keep going because one pushblock and thats it bro.

This MU is Zods MU the second he gets away and his backdash supports it. The only time Joker can fully punish Black Adams, I mean Zods backdash is if its on wake up and Joker is right on him. Otherwise Joker can get a gunshot in... thats it. This MU is way too easy for Zod due to the million ways he can get trait and on some levels doesnt need trait and Joker has nothing reliable to fall back on besides a full screen super and godlike blessing of a hitconfirm.

I'm not sure how many Joker players you've played or if you have the full MU experience at the time you played them but every Joker plays differently even though we all have different conclusions on this MU, we've all looked free due to Zods overall dominance with his tools and Joker just can barely compete. I definitely value and appreciate everything you've said though and I will definitely lab the MU again to see if I can come up with more options. Thanks man.
 

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Ok I am seriously interested in how the hell some of you think Joker vs Bane is a 5-5. Please explain the thought process, I think it's a 7-3 Bane's favor, I'll explain why a bit later.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Ok I am seriously interested in how the hell some of you think Joker vs Bane is a 5-5. Please explain the thought process, I think it's a 7-3 Bane's favor, I'll explain why a bit later.
Too much laughing gas :joker:

We'll do Bane next, because that's another one that we're somewhat divided over (though I will say that I agree with you; it's either a hard 4-6 or legit 3-7). I just don't wanna be skipping around too much and we're trying to talk about Aquaman now. I'll tag you when Bane comes up!
 

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Too much laughing gas :joker:

We'll do Bane next, because that's another one that we're somewhat divided over (though I will say that I agree with you; it's either a hard 4-6 or legit 3-7). I just don't wanna be skipping around too much and we're trying to talk about Aquaman now. I'll tag you when Bane comes up!
Awesome, because I will gladly give my inputs. I have exp with Kentucky and Vengeance, so I think I know the mu fairly well.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Too much laughing gas :joker:

We'll do Bane next, because that's another one that we're somewhat divided over (though I will say that I agree with you; it's either a hard 4-6 or legit 3-7). I just don't wanna be skipping around too much and we're trying to talk about Aquaman now. I'll tag you when Bane comes up!
You should skip AM for now considering everyone seems to be waiting to blow up Eevee and I, and Eevee's in Basic for another week and right now I am working back to back 12 hour shifts and still trying to catch up on my tournament write-ups.
Neither of us have a huge amount of high level Bane experience, so you should go with that one for now (By the way, I double checked and saw I had indeed put it as 5-5 in my original chart. I don't know how or why I did that, but that was definitely an error on my part. I need to play high level Banes again to have an opinion. I know what's worked against some decent Bane players I've had the chance to play, so I'm not COMPLETELY clueless on the MU, but I need to play someone like Max again to really have an idea of how the MU plays out when both players know what they're doing.).
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I've played Grr prepatch, been playing a local high lvl Bane when he used to play him and discussed the matchup with Max. It's at most 6-4 after the patch. Teeth and our air normals keep him out too well, parry is good and our combos always take over a lvl of venom, assuming Bane's at lvl 1.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I've played Grr prepatch, been playing a local high lvl Bane when he used to play him and discussed the matchup with Max. It's at most 6-4 after the patch. Teeth and our air normals keep him out too well, parry is good and our combos always take over a lvl of venom, assuming Bane's at lvl 1.
Have you played Biohazard or Max?
 

oNe87_Kentucky

Hunter, Not hunted.
I played Max, Biohazard, Rev, Kyu, and a few others who's names I can't recall. It's not as simple as Spork28 is making it seem. Obviously his footsies and oki shit on joker's, so the thing to do would be keep him out, but if your playing a smart and patient one then he's not just gonna charge into teeth or jump around for free. He's most likely gonna get about mid screen and start whiffing double punches or dash canceling that f2 which both nullify any zoning outside of teeth hell they could even just duck a gun or block a canister and that's a free godlike dash. If you have teeth already out and he's near you, he can just armor thru them ( teeth, jump1/2/3 can be uppercut). If your in the middle of throwing teeth up close then he can punish with whatever on reaction. Teeth are over-rated in this MU. Now that bane is in and the madness has started, your just eating armored moves taking chip and blah blah blah, so your trying to parry or backdash out. Parry is great and all but banes have gotten smarter so that will just read and command grab that shit, or only go for tick throws. A backdash can be caught with f2d and combo punished. The key to this mu is to just simply outplay your opponent. Catch the backdashes with a well timed canister or gun, make the right reads up close, don't jump in, be smart about when you throw teeth and how far you throw them. When you get that hit-confirm you MUST capitalize. Don't go for teeth setups unless he's mid-screen on debuff. In the corner if he's debuffed mash acid cancels a few times before going for a 50-50 because each acid is around 3%. Midscreen on buff end with crowbar and just b1 acid then jump back to get a nice range away from him. In the corner on buff DON'T throw teeth or do a quick restand. You should loop the otg only using 3 into 50/50 Crowbar or canister because anything else can be armored or interrupted. The MU is very hard for joker and brings lots of sodium to both players, especially with them being the 2 saltiest community's of TYM. With all that being said... 7-3 Banes favor.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I played Max, Biohazard, Rev, Kyu, and a few others who's names I can't recall. It's not as simple as Spork28 is making it seem. Obviously his footsies and oki shit on joker's, so the thing to do would be keep him out, but if your playing a smart and patient one then he's not just gonna charge into teeth or jump around for free. He's most likely gonna get about mid screen and start whiffing double punches or dash canceling that f2 which both nullify any zoning outside of teeth hell they could even just duck a gun or block a canister and that's a free godlike dash. If you have teeth already out and he's near you, he can just armor thru them ( teeth, jump1/2/3 can be uppercut). If your in the middle of throwing teeth up close then he can punish with whatever on reaction. Teeth are over-rated in this MU. Now that bane is in and the madness has started, your just eating armored moves taking chip and blah blah blah, so your trying to parry or backdash out. Parry is great and all but banes have gotten smarter so that will just read and command grab that shit, or only go for tick throws. A backdash can be caught with f2d and combo punished. The key to this mu is to just simply outplay your opponent. Catch the dashes with a well timed canister or gun, make the right reads up close, don't jump in, be smart about when you throw teeth and how far you throw them. When you get that hit-confirm you MUST capitalize. Don't go for teeth setups unless he's mid-screen on debuff. In the corner if he's debuffed just mash acid cancels because each acid is around 5%. Midscreen on buff end with crowbar and just b1 acid then jump back to get a nice range away from him. In the corner on buff DON'T throw teeth or do a quick restand. You should loop the otg only using 3 into 50/50 Crowbar or canister because anything else can be armored or interrupted. The MU is very hard for joker and brings lots of sodium to both players, especially with them being the 2 saltiest community's of TYM. With all that being said... 7-3 Banes favor.
What I gathered from this is

40 frame moves on whiff are safe?
Use gunshot outside cancels and use laughing gas
Parry can be read, no shit
If Bane armours through your teeth then you're not spacing yourself right to punish/not using pushblock correctly. You don't throw out teeth and stand near them vs an armour happy Bane, teeth are like subzero clones, there's a reason they're out, to catch people pressing buttons. When one version of you on the screen is hit, the other punishes.

@GGA Max What's your view on the MU.
 

oNe87_Kentucky

Hunter, Not hunted.
What I gathered from this is

40 frame moves on whiff are safe?
Use gunshot outside cancels and use laughing gas
Parry can be read, no shit
If Bane armours through your teeth then you're not spacing yourself right to punish/not using pushblock correctly. You don't throw out teeth and stand near them vs an armour happy Bane, teeth are like subzero clones, there's a reason they're out, to catch people pressing buttons. When one version of you on the screen is hit, the other punishes.

@GGA Max What's your view on the MU.
What move is 40 frames on whiff? I said you CAN''T use them unless trying to catch a backdash. Your the one who mentioned parry in the first place.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What move is 40 frames on whiff? I said you CAN''T use them unless trying to catch a backdash. Your the one who mentioned parry in the first place.
His double punch.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, there's no need to even mention those tools since they're not even remotely designed to stop people from getting in, they work in almost no matchup.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yeah but im talking about with armor. Most banes start mashing that shit about 1/2 the screen away.
That's really easy to whiff punish with D2 though, you can react to him bringing the shoulder down with D2.

If they're doing it from further away your far teeth should launch them, if mistimed you can jump and armour break.