Breakthrough - Raiden F1 being a high now redundant, Quan has a 6f D1

[usedcarsalesmang]

He has one of the fastest run speeds in the game. It's up there with D'Vorah / Cassie

oh yeah, and i forgot to mention his walk speed is slow

 

[Forbidden_Donut]

Ok fair enough, but to me if they are blocking and punishing d1 then you are getting what you wanted. Like you said if they are punishing d1 that's a pretty hard read they made. They are just standing there asking to be 50/50'ed.

Why is f2 his main footsie tool when b3 does the same thing, is faster and is actually part of his 50/50 anyway? b3 is pretty much a low poke then the 2 covers his ass to be completely safe since it cannot be armored through and the range makes it impossible to whiff punish. Only way to really blow it up is to throw projectiles, which he can blow through with ex superman, or jump over him...and jumping at Raiden means you'll die.

I'm just sick of hearing about f1. People are acting like one move makes a character and it's not true. They need to stop playing with Raiden like he was prepatch and learn how to use his other moves. Only thing f1 should be used for is punishing and AA.

I've been reading this whole back and forth and overall I'd say I agree with you that raiden is being kinda downplayed in his current state and is still a character capable of competing. Having said that, I think he can use some fixes and a couple of the changes being advocated are justified. I also have to agree with the raiden players that overall, raiden was probably the only character in the game that was over nerfed just a tad.

I personally think f1 is fine as a high. I'm still not convinced that it needs to become a mid again. I know he has problems with people low profiling him to death but i think that's just because people are still trying to play pre patch raiden. D1 and d3 do everything any character needs mid wise and people here are conveniently forgetting that raiden is one of very few characters in this game that can convert ANY touch into a meter less restand vortex that leaves you guessing for your life, as well as being able to convert ANY touch into the corner. B2 being minus 63 though is still kinda crazy in my opinion. Why is it literally minus a full second? lol. Fix his Hitbox issues with b1 and db3 and whatever else he has, and maybe make b2 like minus 20ish? Still very unsafe, but not so unsafe that characters can literally jump over you, putting you in the corner, and do their crazy max damage swag combos as a punish. Other then that, he's still a really good character.

 

[BigMilk]

Ok fair enough, but to me if they are blocking and punishing d1 then you are getting what you wanted. Like you said if they are punishing d1 that's a pretty hard read they made. They are just standing there asking to be 50/50'ed.

Why is f2 his main footsie tool when b3 does the same thing, is faster and is actually part of his 50/50 anyway? b3 is pretty much a low poke then the 2 covers his ass to be completely safe since it cannot be armored through and the range makes it impossible to whiff punish. Only way to really blow it up is to throw projectiles, which he can blow through with ex superman, or jump over him...and jumping at Raiden means you'll die.

I'm just sick of hearing about f1. People are acting like one move makes a character and it's not true. They need to stop playing with Raiden like he was prepatch and learn how to use his other moves. Only thing f1 should be used for is punishing and AA.

I never said I agree with the thread title because I don't lol. I think f1 is fine and the only time I mention it is attempting to explain that it was either his best option or only decent option in most cases. I'm fine with only using as a punish or AA. I'm actually the first to even post on how good f1 was as an AA when people disagreed(getting off topic). But it is undeniable that it left holes in his game. B3 is a good tool as well but f2 range is better and b32 is TG only and if you are whiffing the first hit it can be jumped over and punished on reaction. I will say it again, I don't agree with thread title, I understand your frustration about f1 gripes but I'm frustrated as well with assumptions that every Raiden player who discusses the character is downplaying or something. You won't find a post from me doing that. For the longest I have been trying to legitimately discuss Raiden and improve our strategies etc, so your frustration is misled if it's towards me. I'm trying to make us better believe it or not.

 

[Eldriken]

I've been reading this whole back and forth and overall I'd say I agree with you that raiden is being kinda downplayed in his current state and is still a character capable of competing. Having said that, I think he can use some fixes and a couple of the changes being advocated are justified. I also have to agree with the raiden players that overall, raiden was probably the only character in the game that was over nerfed just a tad.

I personally think f1 is fine as a high. I'm still not convinced that it needs to become a mid again. I know he has problems with people low profiling him to death but i think that's just because people are still trying to play pre patch raiden. D1 and d3 do everything any character needs mid wise and people here are conveniently forgetting that raiden is one of very few characters in this game that can convert ANY touch into a meter less restand vortex that leaves you guessing for your life, as well as being able to convert ANY touch into the corner. B2 being minus 63 though is still kinda crazy in my opinion. Why is it literally minus a full second? lol. Fix his Hitbox issues with b1 and db3 and whatever else he has, and maybe make b2 like minus 20ish? Still very unsafe, but not so unsafe that characters can literally jump over you, putting you in the corner, and do their crazy max damage swag combos as a punish. Other then that, he's still a really good character.

I don't mind Raiden being -63 from b2 because I'm like, "HUUUE FREE FULL COMBO!" However, I also don't understand why the hell it's THAT negative. I mean...shit.

 

[Rude]

his movement is pretty slow. backdash is slow for sure. dash and run are meh.
combined with his huge hitbox that makes him clunky chunky monkey.

try playing and you'll feel what I mean

I had him in training mode when I wrote all that. I used Sub Zero for comparison and there wasn't really that big of a diffeeence in walk speed

His run speed felt great.

 

[Slips]

I've been reading this whole back and forth and overall I'd say I agree with you that raiden is being kinda downplayed in his current state and is still a character capable of competing. Having said that, I think he can use some fixes and a couple of the changes being advocated are justified. I also have to agree with the raiden players that overall, raiden was probably the only character in the game that was over nerfed just a tad.

I personally think f1 is fine as a high. I'm still not convinced that it needs to become a mid again. I know he has problems with people low profiling him to death but i think that's just because people are still trying to play pre patch raiden. D1 and d3 do everything any character needs mid wise and people here are conveniently forgetting that raiden is one of very few characters in this game that can convert ANY touch into a meter less restand vortex that leaves you guessing for your life, as well as being able to convert ANY touch into the corner. B2 being minus 63 though is still kinda crazy in my opinion. Why is it literally minus a full second? lol. Fix his Hitbox issues with b1 and db3 and whatever else he has, and maybe make b2 like minus 20ish? Still very unsafe, but not so unsafe that characters can literally jump over you, putting you in the corner, and do their crazy max damage swag combos as a punish. Other then that, he's still a really good character.

Can't Raiden just do b2~shocker for a lower damaging safe overhead option? And can't he do b2~ex vicinity blast for a safe launching overhead in the corner when he has meter?

Maybe it's silly his b2 is super negative, but making something full combo punishable less negative but still full combo punishable pretty much means that is not the problem Raiden players are having.

I just think Raiden players need an attitude adjustment. I play Scorpion who was arguably nerfed harder than anyone but I'm not stuck trying to play him pre-patch like it seems a lot of the Raiden players are trying to do.

 

[WATCHD0G]

It bother me how they just tore Raiden apart, piece by piece until now when he's considered obsolete. I don't even play Raiden and have never wanted to but he was the one true victim of the patches.

I agree with you, TC

dude you you hit the nail on the head....i used to be a raiden main but damn i was so sad playing him that i just had to switch. i am now smitten with Sonya.




at least until some fucktards complain and get her nerfed.

 

[Big Pampering]

What difference does it make if you make the overhead a little less negative but still punishable? Do people want to get away with murder?

 

[ismael4790]

I think he can use some fixes and a couple of the changes being advocated are justified. I also have to agree with the raiden players that overall, raiden was probably the only character in the game that was over nerfed just a tad.

TG Raiden was top, and he became mid. I understand that hurts, of course. But I don't think he was over nerfed. He was hurted by option selects removal, and that was a general fix in the game. Want an example of over nerfed character? Fisticuffs Cage a.k.a "how to destroy a variation"

However I think specially Master of Storms and Displacer need a lot of help. And to get their midscreen combos back, for some reason after patch some of their bnbs became very inconsistent.

 

[Barrogh]

Which characters?

I suppose it was anyone with fastest move at 10 frames (Takeda, Kenshi?). Now everyone at least has 8f jab though.

What's wrong with Raiden?

All I see is:

- Meterless launching 50/50's, one of which is unpunishable
- Great armor
- Good footsies
- Good whiff punishment
- Good anti-zoning
- Great AA
- Great corner carry
- Good damage

Like, seriously, what's the problem.

I'll take a wild guess and say that main problem of TG is that there are characters that are at least as good rushdowns as him, but also have better setplay despite worse corner carry, sometimes more utility and thus are simply more fun to play on top of that.

Barrogh, what do you feel like Raiden needs?

I personally have no idea and honestly I don't have that much desire to necessary see things changed for TG, which is what people keep talking about. TG is just another rushdown character with some in-built mixups, which this game has plenty of already.

The biggest letdown for me about MKX Raiden was his complete overhaul from defensive character built around sick free reversal to aggressive rushdown with very little special flavour on top of that (if you count out his Subzero-wannabe tricks in TG and, much less notably, MoS).

I had few ideas about Displacer that could maybe make him more oldschool (because why not, we don't have many characters that would fit into that archetype), I'd post them if somebody is interested, but let's be honest - nobody cares about what another nostalgic scrub thinks, and rightfully so, I should add.

Other than that I feel that TG should not outdo MoS in traps department because let's be honest, even at 1 meter price EX-lightning stop does more than "free" MoS orbs. The latter being only really useful for some setplay situations (and not even being really good at that in many cases) makes entire concept fail IMHO. Although feel free to share your thought if you think that my view on them is outdated.

Which attack is it?

Isn't his low starter like 7f or something?

I support any hitbox issues that aren't working right in his other variations, but MoS alone I don't see any major concerns to be asking for significant buffs.

Did you mean "TG" or did I miss some development lately?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

What's wrong with Raiden?

All I see is:

- Meterless launching 50/50's, one of which is unpunishable
- Great armor
- Good footsies
- Good whiff punishment
- Good anti-zoning
- Great AA
- Great corner carry
- Good damage

Like, seriously, what's the problem.

Bwizz Hur hur Hur Lord Raiden Hur Hurr Hur couldn't beat a woman even if he was Ray Rice playing raiden

That's what's wrong

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Looks like a lot of salt in a few of those recent post. If you don't agree and don't have anything to offer to the conversation, why even post?
Like damn, we're practically done talking about f1 and attempting to discuss what he may or may not need. Ultimately determining whether he's just fine or not and yet the smug attitudes continue. Are you guys that butt hurt over a thread? It's not like this thread is currently holding any weight as far as NRS's pending patch list goes.. Relax already.

Like I said the discussion about f1 is practically in the past already and you guys keep bringing it up.
Which brings me to the next point, that Slips put out there.



Tbh, my position in this thread is rather 3rd party-ish and truthfully, I know little about him in comparison to other users here.
But it IS safe to say we're all trying to reach the same conclusion by different means.

"What exactly is wrong with Raiden after his recent nerfs?"

Having read the OP's post, I too feel like Raiden has made a decline and seems a bit more free in nuetral game. Though, understand I don't think anyone is saying he's garbage. I even mentioned previously that I've still been beaten convincingly by a few Raidens at locals. Even still, just because the character has good traits on paper, doesn't mean he can't struggle or doesn't have problems.
^Facts^

Let's be perfectly honest here though, no bs. His presence at tournaments has taken a decline since the last two patches.
Whether this is from people abandoning him out of salt or because they feel he's gimped, is a part of the mystery.
If we can figure that out even a little, I think it'll say a lot for where he stands. Forget the idea of requesting buffs or even nerfs.
These discussions are good to have, because it'll publicly benefit everyone who wants to know where Raiden stands as of now.

All that to say, I see where you're coming from and think we should focus directly on his supposed issues first.

Wait wait wait

Remove dizzy from raiden pre patch and what exactly did raiden accomplish?

He was top3 then and you're acting like we had millions and now none

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Again, I'm just telling you what people who main the character say/have said on the issue. People get very fussy about the neutral game. Alucard straight dropping Tremor over his advancing mid becoming a high is an example.

On the overhead issue, there's a lot of room between "free, safe, meterless vortex" and "baby's first punish" (which his B2 very much is right now). Make it unsafe. Hell, very unsafe. But as it is right now it's kind of comically overboard. I kind of expect him to casually check his watch while doing the recovery wind up.

Seriously he did?

People wanna actually feel what garbage feels like they should play in my character shoes

 

[Big Pampering]

Imo the issue is raiden not having that good footsies and a bad counterpoking game.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Imo the issue is raiden not having that good footsies and a bad counterpoking game.

His pokes should be d1 it should be b3

 

[LaidbackOne]

Didn't realize that removing option selects from the game and making a move hit high instead of mid would "ruin" this character that much.

 

[Big Pampering]

His pokes should be d1 it should be b3

You mean counterpoke with b3? I don't know why raiden players dont do that, but it still doesn't cover all counterpoke aspects. I'm not saying he is shit, but those are his weaknesses imo.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

You mean counterpoke with b3? I don't know why raiden players dont do that, but it still doesn't cover all counterpoke aspects. I'm not saying he is shit, but those are his weaknesses imo.

Yea all raiden be should counter poke w b3 not d1

Same w Quan and others

 

[DDutchguy]

Raiden (Displacer at least) is good, but not great. Mid tier if you ask me, though that doesn't really say much in MKX.

F1 should stay a high. It is a great 6-frame punishing tool and works well enough in the neutral (at least until people start realizing F12B2 has a gap). F1 as a mid would be pretty insane in TG, would give Raiden free meter and would give him extremely powerful punishes. Even making it 9 frames or something doesn't seem like the best option, would still be perhaps too powerful in TG.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Can't Raiden just do b2~shocker for a lower damaging safe overhead option? And can't he do b2~ex vicinity blast for a safe launching overhead in the corner when he has meter?

Maybe it's silly his b2 is super negative, but making something full combo punishable less negative but still full combo punishable pretty much means that is not the problem Raiden players are having.

I just think Raiden players need an attitude adjustment. I play Scorpion who was arguably nerfed harder than anyone but I'm not stuck trying to play him pre-patch like it seems a lot of the Raiden players are trying to do.

God damn. I just love it when you come out of your dojo and start educating these children. Yassss wise Slips, yasssss!

Lol but seriously. You hit the nail on the head...attitude adjustments. I never imagined threads about Raiden being garbage would ever surface. My god.

 

[SEN WIIISE]

Wait wait wait

Remove dizzy from raiden pre patch and what exactly did raiden accomplish?

He was top3 then and you're acting like we had millions and now none

I never spoke on his accomplishments, nor did I speak on the specific players who've played him. Those variables had nothing to do with my point, being there's LESS people playing Raiden now, not none. I'm not acting either. Before patch, Raiden was seen in almost every event, he'll even at the locals I attend. Now I barely see him anywhere. No need to handpicked players, it's just facts. Facts that you may or may not have been paying attention to, to take note of.

But I think I've said what I should have in this thread and don't need to be replied to over a minor detail. It seems the thread has regained it's focus and much better discussion is being held without me, so let's just leave it at that.

 

[Barrogh]

Maybe it's silly his b2 is super negative, but making something full combo punishable less negative but still full combo punishable pretty much means that is not the problem Raiden players are having.

In fact, it sorta is. Most characters can throw their mixups on opponent's wake up pretty much for free as long as they don't read armor and give exactly zero fucks if said opponent lies down - punishes after delayed wakeups are rare, hard, require read and a perfect timing. Raiden gets punished in this situation for free. Same goes for punishing in neutral and after backdash.

IMO b2 must become b22 string in which b2 still deals 3% on hit and is 0 or -1 on block and about +10 or so on hit (just enough to combo full string, but not enough to guarantee any 13f followups) while b22 is what current b2, but cut about 30-40 frames of recovery (removing that stupid flailing recovery animation will do) still leaving it about -20 on block, but at least harder to punish in neutral or upon delayed wakeup whiff (but still possible).

Not a big fan of in-built mixups, but current b2 is just stupid.

 

[just_2swift]

Wait. Wasn't there a 9 frame gap between f12(gap)f12 on block?

 

[Cerebru]

Yea all raiden be should counter poke w b3 not d1

Same w Quan and others

PIG TF you talking bout?

 

[Cerebru]

His pokes should be d1 it should be b3

Gimmick