"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[Qwark28]

I'm still able to block it. Is there a delay of some sort?

Alter the timing to the point where they cannot wake up but at the last frames.

Just because you can block something in training doesn't mean that you'll block it in a real match.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Alter the timing to the point where they cannot wake up but at the last frames.

Just because you can block something in training doesn't mean that you'll block it in a real match.

Hard to block =/= unblockable

 

[Qwark28]

Hard to block =/= unblockable

Find me someone who will block that in a tournament, on stream with all the pressure on him being in the corner against Joker

There's a reason SF4 also has near unblockables called unblockables.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Hard to block =/= unblockable

True, but there is about a frame or two that they have to transition from back to down, which is not easy to do, let alone time properly. AAANNNNDDDD, depending on your timing, you might land the crowbar after the teeth, which will totally throw them off. It's alot more difficult to judge.
Like I said, if the opponent is blocking b13 well in this setup, switch to this. Or just cage them with b1 flower and keep the pressure on with a jump or 212 xx teeth setup (they will be in block stun in the teeth after the flower).

 

[OnlineRon91]

Marvel has unblockables. Being hit overhead and low at the same time by the point and assist character. Go find them, they are all over the place, in tournaments no less.

 

[OnlineRon91]

All I am saying is that unblockable is misleading, it is saying that no one can block them. Call them ambiguous, which is what they are.

 

[Qwark28]

Just because this game does not allow for true unblockables doesn't mean there aren't. Humans can't switch and time their block within a single frame, you just can't reach the button fast enough.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Personally, I'm a fan of the hard-to-blockable term. Let's us continue to downplay (not that we need to...).

 

[OnlineRon91]

Err, you know injustice has block buffer windows right? that means you don't have to transition from standing to crouch to the frame. You're comparing block switching to cross up setups that you cant block by holding back or forward ...

 

[OnlineRon91]

Personally, I'm a fan of the hard-to-blockable term. Let's us continue to downplay (not that we need to...).

Yea that's the term some SSF4 players use as well. I guess I was just really excited when I saw unblockables and ended up being disappointed lol.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Qwark28 Stevo explained it to me, you guys are using d2 xx crowbar once you condition them not to wake up. I was under the impression that you guys were using this setup with d2 OTG, which is why I was like wtf? this is not hard to block at all. All is good with the world.

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark28 Stevo explained it to me, you guys are using d2 xx crowbar once you condition them not to wake up. I was under the impression that you guys were using this setup with d2 OTG, which is why I was like wtf? this is not hard to block at all. All is good with the world.

I use it after mb crowbar, in my experience on and offline noone has blocked it.

 

[Fromundaman]

What do you guys do if you have them in the corner after a crowbar and you know they will push block your OTG?

If we are talking about MB Crowbar (which realistically is the only one I feel we should do in the corner for as long as we have meter), then I can't think of any reason NOT to do teeth then B13. Pushblock makes you unable to block for the animation's duration, so pushblocking the B1 *should* lead to them getting hit (Can't test since I haven't had it happen to me and still no game available for the month, but I know Lex probes can hit when you get pushblocked for a free combo), and from that you can go into D2>teeth>D1>B1>teeth>21 (1st hit)>MB BF3 to reset the situation and build about 90% of a bar.


EDIT: Damn might not be able to watch the 1st day of your streamed tournament Qwark since I'll be still doing my internship at that time, so make sure to get out of pools! I want to see you in top 8!

 

[OnlineRon91]

I use it after mb crowbar, in my experience on and offline noone has blocked it.

Yea we are on the same page now. Since they are looking for the otg they wont wake up, which is why this setup is so effective. This is similar to otg b13, only they can't even forward dash after blocking b1.

 

[OnlineRon91]

This is relatively new to me so bare with me, but what do you guys think about mb crowbar, teeth, (same brief pause as d2), f21? I'm getting 38% if you end in another mb crowbar. I also cant seem to block it, similar to d2 xx crowbar or otg b13.

Also, you cannot jump out of this, the f2 will keep them standing.

 

[Qwark28]

Yea we are on the same page now. Since they are looking for the otg they wont wake up, which is why this setup is so effective. This is similar to otg b13, only they can't even forward dash after blocking b1.

I'm not waiting until the wake up window is up, I'm doing it as an otg itself.

F21 is useless, might as well go for a F3 or B13, no need for such a slow move.

 

[Fromundaman]

I'm not waiting until the wake up window is up, I'm doing it as an otg itself.

F21 is useless, might as well go for a F3 or B13, no need for such a slow move.

Really? I've used it sometimes when they're sitting on teeth as a mixup, usually after a 21>teeth on block. If you do F21 on teeth, it makes the overhead hit 1st. As a result, they have to block high when you do the F2, but if you cancel into teeth there, then they blocked wrong, get launched and you have teeth already down.

Not a setup I can use often per se, especially since they need to decide to block teeth at point blank range instead of moving away from them, but I've been able to use it as a ghetto 50/50 on occasion.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Really? I've used it sometimes when they're sitting on teeth as a mixup, usually after a 21>teeth on block. If you do F21 on teeth, it makes the overhead hit 1st. As a result, they have to block high when you do the F2, but if you cancel into teeth there, then they blocked wrong, get launched and you have teeth already down.

Not a setup I can use often per se, especially since they need to decide to block teeth at point blank range instead of moving away from them, but I've been able to use it as a ghetto 50/50 on occasion.

I tried blocking this setup ~ mb crowbar, teeth, f21 (as I get up), teeth pop ~

As of now I cant seem to block it at all. Not only that but it's a high pop up so Joker gets 30%+ into another crowbar.

 

[Qwark28]

Really? I've used it sometimes when they're sitting on teeth as a mixup, usually after a 21>teeth on block. If you do F21 on teeth, it makes the overhead hit 1st. As a result, they have to block high when you do the F2, but if you cancel into teeth there, then they blocked wrong, get launched and you have teeth already down.

Not a setup I can use often per se, especially since they need to decide to block teeth at point blank range instead of moving away from them, but I've been able to use it as a ghetto 50/50 on occasion.

I see no reason to use F21 over J3 midscreen or B13/D2 crowbar

 

[Fromundaman]

I tried blocking this setup ~ mb crowbar, teeth, f21 (as I get up), teeth pop ~

As of now I cant seem to block it at all. Not only that but it's a high pop up so Joker gets 30%+ into another crowbar.

Couldn't they just wake up out of that? F2 doesn't OTG does it?


Also Qwark I kind of agree, but it's more of a "trying not to get predictable so here's a random ghetto 50/50 that makes the opponent wonder WTF could I be thinking(Or WTH is that move?)" type of thing.

Pretty much threw it in because adding random B2U3 with Lex threw people off, although I admit that string is a bit better.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Couldn't they just wake up out of that? F2 doesn't OTG does it?

Some of this is being discussed as an option for once people are trained not to wakeup.

 

[Fromundaman]

Ah okay sorry. I just wanted to clarify since I can't test it atm and for a second I gave myself the hope that maybe we had forgotten to test that move. It would have beenreally useful if it OTGed off of MB BF3 XD

 

[OnlineRon91]

Couldn't they just wake up out of that? F2 doesn't OTG does it?


Also Qwark I kind of agree, but it's more of a "trying not to get predictable so here's a random ghetto 50/50 that makes the opponent wonder WTF could I be thinking(Or WTH is that move?)" type of thing.

Pretty much threw it in because adding random B2U3 with Lex threw people off, although I admit that string is a bit better.

Nope it's not an OTG, but who in their right mind is going to wake up after getting hit by mb crowbar >:]
If they block f2 then its a hard to blockable, they take 38% and are in the same setup.
Qwark is doing OTG d2 xx crowbar, which I find too easy to block for my taste. If he does not OTG with it then it is also a hard to blockable, albeit for less damage than f21.
-
Lets not kid ourselves though, OTG b13 is better than both f21 and d2 xx crowbar. OTG b13 both OTGs (duh), racks up 36% and puts them in the same setup.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Most people still struggle at blocking b13 properly, so all of this is basically backup options once they prove themselves able to block. And even if they do manage to block, we're at advantage and they're sitting in the corner. Still plenty of options.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Qwark28, two questions:

1. Are you certain that you are getting d2 xx crowbar in the OTG window most of the time, or have your opponents stopped trying to wakeup and it's hard to tell?
2. Do the opponents that cannot block d2 xx crowbar also fail to block b13, or do you do what I was saying earlier where you see if they are able to block b13 and only then switch to using d2 xx crowbar?

I ask because Ron seems pretty confident that the block window is similar between the two (d2 crowbar and b13, followed by the teeth popping), so I just wanted to clarify a bit.
Either way, I'll test it for myself sometime in the next few days.