Your buff and nerf predictions

[Matix218]

First, you forget that Scorpion has the ability to teleport AWAY in Reborn. Not just in. So even in the case that TP cancel on side switch was useless, the variation would still have tools. Second, if you absolutely must have a mixup on tp, then make the amp’d second hit a mid. But I want to reiterate that a move like that doesn’t NEED an automatic, built-in mixup. It’s perfectly fine as a whiff punish. What other teleports in the game have such good frames and utility that they’re automatically a mixup just by existing? You see any other teleport in the game that forces every single member of the cast to inch forward with block, never throwing projectiles and barely throwing pokes, for fear of a full-combo reaction punish? Ask Raiden players or Kollector players or Kung Lao players if that sounds nice. Even if making it a high would completely remove the mind game (which it wouldn’t), it’s still the single best deterrent, pace control, punish move in the game.

The proof is in the pudding man, if this mid hitting teleport is such a problem where were all of the scorpions at Combo Breaker? We saw like 1 decent scorpion main in top 96 (Killer Xinnok) and we saw arguably the best player in the world (Scar) win a set in top 8 with him as a counterpick character for a specific matchup. Almost 900 players, many NRS veterans as well as high level players from capcom and anime games, and not 1 single scorpion main anywhere near top 24? Yet we saw sonyas, geras everywhere (geras mirrors everywhere even), and the other top characters doing work from pools through top 8. Yeah, scorpion is a real problem... you didnt address the fact that in a neutral situation (equal meter) the risk of a teleport is not even in scorpion's favor. Also the startup frames for teleport before it hits is 23 according to the frame data and there are a ton of projectiles that cannot be punished on reaction with it...

 

[kcd117]

Making scorpions teleport a high would literally destroy the reborn variation. There would be no teleport cancel mindgames as the defender could just d1 him out of any teleport (cancel or not) and have no reason to hold block when he sees scorpion teleport. I have no issues with not letting scorp amplify teleport on the first few block frames like he can now but I assure you making it a high would destroy his most viable variation.

His current TP cancels are cheap. There is no place in this game for stuff like that imo. And you can cancel from specific normals in order to be out of poke range so they would still be viable.

If it ends up being weak (which I very much doubt since base scorpion is probably better than 4/5s of the cast) maybe change the air grab for something else but the reasons why TP cancels are good and make him extremely strong are just wrong.

 

[Matix218]

His current TP cancels are cheap. There is no place in this game for stuff like that imo. And you can cancel from specific normals in order to be out of poke range so they would still be viable.

If it ends up being weak (which I very much doubt since base scorpion is probably better than 4/5s of the cast) maybe change the air grab for something else but the reasons why TP cancels are good and make him extremely strong are just wrong.

Read my above post. Where are these scorpion players destroying people with the mid teleport threat? We have no evidence that the mid teleport is too good

 

[deathstroke187]

just remove his ability to amplify on block thats it...
scorpion doesnt need to be nerf to shit. Im really worried of what nrs will do for all the top tier characters.

 

[Matix218]

just remove his ability to amplify on block thats it...
scorpion doesnt need to be nerf to shit. Im really worried of what nrs will do for all the top tier characters.

This guy gets it

 

[deathstroke187]

Sonya : add more startup frames on her onion rings and make the amplify high

Geras : swap the low sand with the pillar from the other variation
add some range on his throws so he doesnt put ou in the grinder after a throw
normalize his j3

Scorpion : just remove his ability to amplify teleport on block

Jacqui : make her use meeter for her f31 cancel , imo she is the most brain dead character ez mode in the game and nobody will change my mind.
scale her 600+ dmg combo

buff: kotal,dvhora,jax,kollector,kano slightly and everything is good

 

[deathstroke187]

oh and i forgot about Erron

nerf his f4 range and make it negative witout amplify
make his b222 only overhead on the last hit , he still has his 211 1+2 to mix your shit up so but its a high so at least its fair.

scale dmg on his bf4 gunshots on block.

 

[zerosebaz]

My predictions:

Geras and Scorpion will receive a lot of nerfs and people will be supper happy/angry until two days into the patch when everyone realizes they are still on the top.

Erron will be nerfed and deemed abysmal, but will actually still be viable and a top 10 character.

Sonya, and Jaqui will receive small wristlaps that don't really change anything.

Sub zero will get a few nerfs, but the buffs he gets to compensate them will make him better than before.

Kitana will be horrendously overbuffed, and might end up being the absolute top tier for a while.

Jax will get small buffs.

Liu Kang will get small nerfs.

Cetrion will receive a million small nerfs that won't actually change her much. People will still complain though.

Skarlet will lowered to the bottom of the mid tiers, will still be good in specific match ups.

Kabal will be buffed and be just outside of the top 5.

Cage will receive changes that don't actually help him.

Lao will receive help, but nothing crazy.

Kotal, Dvorah, Shao Kahn: one of them will be brought to the top 10, one will be buffed fairly, and one will receive a lot of buffs that don't actually do anything and remain at the bottom of the barrel, along with Frost.

Most of the useless second variations will be buffed but remain useless(some might end up worse) , except one or two which will become viable.


I feel this is pretty in line with what NRS has done in the past.

 

[Elias6999]

Whiffing issues fixed.

Nerfs and buffs:

Scorpion:

TP is now high and has to be amplified on startup for the second hit to come out.
F3 is more - on block.
D1 is more - on block.
D4 is more - on block.
JK has a smaller hitbox.
Increased recovery frames on whiffed and blocked spear.

Sonya:

Increased recovery on rings.
Increased dmg scaling on combos.
B12 is now uncancelable and only comes out as B124.
JK has a smaller hitbox.

Geras:

Hit adv on both throws is reduced.
Increased dmg scaling.
FB gap on F21(2).
Sand trap now -35.
JK and divebomb now have smaller hitboxes.
D1 is 7 frames and more - on block.

Erron Black:

B222 last hit Is not cancelable on block anymore.
D4 is now 10 frames of startup and -7.
D3 is now 8 frames and more negative.
D1 is now 7 frames and more negative.
JK hitbox reduced.
Scud shot can only parry 2 projectiles, additional parrys will cost a bar of defense.

Sub-Zero:

D1 is now 7 frames.
Backdash is slower.
F2 can't be canceled anymore.

Jacqui:

F31 is now -7.
F314 is now -15.
F31 cancel is now -7.
F1 is now 14 frames.
F12 is now -7.
D1 is now -6.
Dash punch has more recovery on whiff.
Increased hitbox when performing Jump in attacks.

Cassie:

F4 is now -5.
Up kick amplified is now -15.

Liu Kang:

Straight fireball now has slightly reduced hitbox.
Parry scales dmg.
F4 now -9.
Amplified low fireball leaves him closer to the opponent.
B1 now 12 frames of startup.

Baraka:

Slight dmg scaling after gutted.

Jade:

Regular Shadow Kick now does 10% dmg, Amplified now does 16%.
KB requirement changed to trigger after the 3rd amplified shadow kick and does now 27% raw and 32 when amplified.

Kung Lao:

Change his teleport KB somehow... is so bad I don't even know how to fix it.

Kano:

B3 is now +2 on block.
F12 is now is now a high-mid string.
B1 is now 10 frames of startup and has a slightly better hitbox.
F4 sped up to 22 frames.
F43 is now universal and KB triggers if it hits an opponent blocking low.

Raiden:

B12 is now -5.

Kabal:

F224 is now -7.

Increased KB dmg on F224.
Increased recovery on air saws.
Extended Hook is now -22 on block.

Shao Kahn:

F34 gap removed.
Can now choose sides on F34 1+3 for a bar.
All buffs have a better recovery speed.
Fixed buggy KBs.

Kotal:

212 is now a meterless launcher.
F3 now ticks (in a fair way lol).
12 now ticks.
F4 now +2.
Can choose sides on amplified cmd grab.

Cetrion:

Teleporting away now costs both defensive bars.

Skarlet:

Blood tongue is now -12 on block.

Kollector:

Fix his KBs.
Bola is now a little bit faster on startup to make combos more consistent.

D'vorah:

Give her decent frame adv on her pokes.
Decreased recovery on her projectiles.
F1 is now a mid.
12 has better hit adv to combo into amplified puddle.

oh lord no

Sonya : add more startup frames on her onion rings and make the amplify high

Geras : swap the low sand with the pillar from the other variation
add some range on his throws so he doesnt put ou in the grinder after a throw
normalize his j3

Scorpion : just remove his ability to amplify teleport on block

Jacqui : make her use meeter for her f31 cancel , imo she is the most brain dead character ez mode in the game and nobody will change my mind.
scale her 600+ dmg combo

buff: kotal,dvhora,jax,kollector,kano slightly and everything is good

The enhanced onion rings being high would make it useless, maybe just decrease its KB damage.

 

[deathstroke187]

oh lotd

The enhanced onion rings being high would make it useless, maybe just decrease its KB damage.

no it wouldnt be useless, if you jump the first one you will still get it by it and get KB and also if you get it by the first one it still combo.

sonya doesnt need to be the best zoner in the game while been on of the very few character that has real 50/50 that hit like a truck

a lot of people want to nerf sonya dmg , but you have to understand her big dmg comes up from a high starter and a very punishable overhead. she is a high risk high reward character if you nerf her dmg then you must nerf all the very safe character that hit like a truck like jacqui,kitana(meeterless),baraka etc..

 

[ogrimtitan]

The proof is in the pudding man, if this mid hitting teleport is such a problem where were all of the scorpions at Combo Breaker? We saw like 1 decent scorpion main in top 96 (Killer Xinnok) and we saw arguably the best player in the world (Scar) win a set in top 8 with him as a counterpick character for a specific matchup. Almost 900 players, many NRS veterans as well as high level players from capcom and anime games, and not 1 single scorpion main anywhere near top 24? Yet we saw sonyas, geras everywhere (geras mirrors everywhere even), and the other top characters doing work from pools through top 8. Yeah, scorpion is a real problem... you didnt address the fact that in a neutral situation (equal meter) the risk of a teleport is not even in scorpion's favor. Also the startup frames for teleport before it hits is 23 according to the frame data and there are a ton of projectiles that cannot be punished on reaction with it...

This isn't really an argument, no offense. It's an anecdote. If it turns out after a longer life-cycle than people try and fail to find success with Scorpion, then it might hold more water. But even then the anecdote has power in the other direction, too. Scar, arguably one of the top 3 players on earth right now, was getting mopped by someone who Foxy wasn't even playing seriously until a week or two ago. And then he switches to Scorpion, also not his main, and reverse 3-0's Foxy. That says something, given that Cassie's not really a character with many weaknesses. And what are Scorpion's weaknesses, anyway? What are his bad matchups?

But that aside, I return to the main point, which is that the TOOL that teleport is falls out of line with almost every other tool in the game. The only tool I can think of that's even close to as good is Geras's sand trap, and that's inarguably OP as well. It just automatically controls the match by its very nature. Making it a high won't change that. People will just have to duck walk in instead of block walking in. It just means Scorpion doesn't get to yeet himself at his opponent whenever he feels like fishing for a combo. Seriously, what other character in the game has anything like this? Forget what you saw in the one major tournament so far and just look at the game. It's out of line. Period. End of. It eliminates the player's entire need to play neutral in favor of watching for a chance to hit one single move. In a game where nearly every other character is balanced around having to play neutral, that's not cool.

But ultimately I'm gonna have to play the "agree to disagree" option select here. Maybe you're right. I don't think so, but time will tell. Meanwhile, there's no point in us debating whether making it a high will kill the move's mixup potential when one of us doesn't even think the move should HAVE much mixup potential. Here's to hoping that whatever happens leaves every character a bit more balanced against each other.

 

[Elias6999]

no it wouldnt be useless, if you jump the first one you will still get it by it and get KB and also if you get it by the first one it still combo.

sonya doesnt need to be the best zoner in the game while been on of the very few character that has real 50/50 that hit like a truck

a lot of people want to nerf sonya dmg , but you have to understand her big dmg comes up from a high starter and a very punishable overhead. she is a high risk high reward character if you nerf her dmg then you must nerf all the very safe character that hit like a truck like jacqui,kitana(meeterless),baraka etc..

Dude I main Sonya lol. Making both high would make her absolutely horrible at dealing with zoning. She needs the second onion ring to be a mid. Decreasing the ring startup would be fine though, she doesn’t need to be the best zoner lol. After she burns through her meter, she’d be easy to deal with from fullscreen.

 

[kcd117]

Read my above post. Where are these scorpion players destroying people with the mid teleport threat? We have no evidence that the mid teleport is too good

So a mid hitting 50/50 on block fullscreen launcher is not that good now bc people didn't place in the first major. Going by this logic Kano is better than Scorpion bc we had 2 in top 24. No move in this game destroys neutral as bad as Scorpion's TP does. Making it a High would not keep it from being a neutral game killer, it would just add a counterplay different than "just block all the time and guess".

 

[deathstroke187]

Dude I main Sonya lol. Making both high would make her absolutely horrible at dealing with zoning. She needs the second onion ring to be a mid. Decreasing the ring startup would be fine though, she doesn’t need to be the best zoner lol. After she burns through her meter, she’d be easy to deal with from fullscreen.

i also main her bruh. and no again it would be a fair nerf and it wouldnt change her gameplan that mutch and no she doesnt need it to be mid at all. just like kitana got her second fan nerfed to high and still is useful if use correctly.

so what that you need to work your way in with her ? thats the point of a rush down character she doesnt need to have every tool or els she would be broke. Be hopefull that Paulo do only what i recommand and not nerf her to complete shit like he did to aquaman and deadshot

 

[Matix218]

So a mid hitting 50/50 on block fullscreen launcher is not that good now bc people didn't place in the first major. Going by this logic Kano is better than Scorpion bc we had 2 in top 24. No move in this game destroys neutral as bad as Scorpion's TP does. Making it a High would not keep it from being a neutral game killer, it would just add a counterplay different than "just block all the time and guess".

His tp is not a 5050 on block... why do people still insist this is the case?

 

[deathstroke187]

His tp is not a 5050 on block... why do people still insist this is the case?

i think he means its because if you try to punish the regular teleport but then he amplify so you get launched. so its kind of a 50/50 + he can just cancel teleport and mix you up.

but again its easy to fix witout making scorpion trash but my faith in paulo isnt that big

 

[scrubjesus111]

Fix hitboxes:
D'Vorrah
Frost

Change KB requirements:
Geras - more demanding
Johnny - less demanding

Nerf:
Sonya combo dmg
Erron Black f4 safety or startup
Scorpion cannot AMP teleport on block

?Buff Kotal somehow, D'Vorrah framedata

PLEASE switch out, or adjust certain useless moves for Tournament Variation(s):
Raiden - Lightning strike less negative on block
Kung Lao - replace orbital hat or adjust meter cost
Shao Kahn - buff-specials take less than a century to activate.
Johnny - worst variation in game. Change to be more useful

***Make all tourney variations in game as complete as possible.

 

[Matix218]

i think he means its because if you try to punish the regular teleport but then he amplify so you get launched. so its kind of a 50/50 + he can just cancel teleport and mix you up.

but again its easy to fix witout making scorpion trash but my faith in paulo isnt that big

I know what he means but he is wrong, this is a common misconception. Regular tp is -20, scorpion has like 3 frames tops to amplify once it is blocked, you wait those 3 frames and you still get your full combo punish.

 

[deathstroke187]

I know what he means but he is wrong, this is a common misconception. Regular tp is -20, scorpion has like 3 frames tops to amplify once it is blocked, you wait those 3 frames and you still get your full combo punish.

offline maybe but with the 8 frame online lag this become a bit more tricky but i get what you mean but just removing the ability to amplify on block would fix this all together and still would be good cause you could just teleport cancel into nothing and mix

 

[Matix218]

offline maybe but with the 8 frame online lag this become a bit more tricky but i get what you mean but just removing the ability to amplify on block would fix this all together and still would be good cause you could just teleport cancel into nothing and mix

I am a scorpion main and I 100% agree with removing his ability to amplify on block. I want to be punished if someone blocks my teleport lol. It is dumb for sure.

 

[JSF]

Edit: i didnt mean block low, i meant neutral duck at full screen. There is NO mindgame at full screen vs scorpion if his tp is high, it totally removes the threat 100%

GOOD. there shouldnt be a mind game to teleport thats the problem with it. he should have to make a read or reaction to use it or die for using it. period.

and even if its a high teleport cancel is still good because you can bait out a button with it and punish with b1 or f3. he would be fine you would just need a brain to use teleport if it was a high

 

[xSkeletonSmasherx69]

Nerf recovery on Sonya projectile. FIX female hitboxes

 

[DDustiNN]

Also, something changed about her Mileena variation, to make it more viable. I have no idea what though.

If she just had straight up moves instead of them being a stance, it’d be far less awkward to use.

 

[Matix218]

GOOD. there shouldnt be a mind game to teleport thats the problem with it. he should have to make a read or reaction to use it or die for using it. period.

and even if its a high teleport cancel is still good because you can bait out a button with it and punish with b1 or f3. he would be fine you would just need a brain to use teleport if it was a high

Well it is up to nrs so we will see

 

[JSF]

Well it is up to nrs so we will see

true, i just hope to god they are testing and listening to what we have to say because the stuff they came up with for launch is pretty bad