Guys stop thinking hard, Rude's positivity is the key
If they have left B2 intact, it works. The second time you'll do it in a combo which changes the hit stun to stagger time it's around +18. I'm saying that because I could connect the 17f F3, but got armored whenever I tried 19f F2. Will check again tomorrow
alright but only because i respect the honesty
Right. What's wrong with doing b2, short delay, 50/50?
There will be a gap. They can backdash or armor out.
Tough titty. Make the read and punish.
You haven't proved your point. It's pretty obvious you haven't even played the character. If Butcher was viable, people would be using him by now. Nobody made him viable with the vortex and nobody will without it.
I actually DO play the character.
I can't speak for post-patch but pre-patch Butcher was definitely viable imo I still prefer the option of berserker stance though I feel it makes my options more versatile
Who cares if it's high?
It's a 14 frame high with mediocre range. Do you know how useless that is in this game? You have to compare Butcher's tools to the rest of the cast.
Cause he can't use armor on his overhead bop to take a turn, right? That never happens? Ever?
Armor on overhead bop is pretty bad. You can use it but it's slow and will get beat out alot. Same with ex db3. It's not a good reward either (ex db3), pushing them so far away, forcing butcher to get back in again. ex bop is best for getting in against a projectile read or a single hit footsie move that your opponent throws out. His best armor is probably ex command grab or ex df4. ex df4 is pretty fast and has good range. It keeps them close on hit for oki. Butcher can't afford to spend bars on get off me moves and then have no meter to get back in again. You need to be close to do anything with him.
Of course you can't just willy-nilly throw moves out there. I would never say otherwise. You're crafting this narrative that these moves are completely unusable, but they're not. You just need to use them in the right ways.
Yeah, they can't build 2 bars in 5 seconds, but it gives them time to set up zoning and build some meter. Meanwhile, Butcher can't do much but walk in. In neutral, Butcher is pretty screwed with out meter because f12 is not as good as it looks. You can't really whiff a f1 and hope the 2 will connect. There's a pretty big gap there where they can interrupt (only if f1 whiffs) before the 2 comes out. If you do make a good read and get them to block the 2, you can't really cancel into anything safe unless it was a max range f12 and even then the only safe option is regular bop.
If you cancel into bop and they're blocking whilst commiting to a more zoning strategy after a break, chances are they won't have that next bar to interrupt the bop. So if they block it you're at advantage and you pushed them closer to the corner.
It's not the same. They can armor out of this. Before they had to guess low or high. Now they can guess low, high, armor or backdash. When they have this many options, it's no longer considered a vortex. Considering his low was already unsafe, it didn't really need to be nerfed in the first place. It was a kneejerk nerf that put Butcher in bottom tier.
I'm pretty sure its plus enough that they can't armour
They can armor or backdash because there will always be a 1 frame gap where 1 combo ends and the next combo begins. Those are the mechanics of a jump in punch because they are meant to combo into the next string. Before, with a string like 22, you were heavily plus, but your next normal attack wouldn't combo. So the opponent was forced to block the overhead or low because they were stuck in hitstun. Since you can't combo after the 22 string, the next attack would start a new combo, and if you guessed wrong on the overhead or low, he could loop you back into the same guessing game.
