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General/Other - Butcher XL Butcher Leatherface General Discussion Thread

Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
-6 moves Butcher can punish with command grab (* means as long as not at max range):

Alien - B11, 21* (-12 in Konjurer/Acidic, -6 in Tarkatan)
Jason - 32U1*/B3U1*, Slasher standing 2*, Slasher DF1* (kind of inconsistent, most stuff cancelled into it leaves Jason at a range where he can backdash to avoid the grab but not duck or jump),
Also interesting note: free punish on B122 every time, don't need to wait for the weird blockstun on it to finish. Just buffer the grab as soon as the string is finished and you'll get a reversal grab and punish #Kreygasm. Can't punish BF3 though due to pushback but it's a high and relatively slow so just duck and punish on reaction if you can.
Kung Lao - 112124/B32* (be careful of these in Hat Trick though, he can cancel them into DF2 and he's safe so he can duck/backdash the grab), Hat Trick's (B22/4)~DF2
Also UGH his D4 is -6 but you can't punish it because of pushback (SAME WITH BUZZ SAW'S LOW HAT FFS), and Hat Trick's Hat Callback is really weird because even though it's -7 he can duck the grab sometimes sooooooo I dunno what's up with that.
Jax - 3*, Pumped Up DB1* (not sure what it is on block though, not listed in movelist), some HW cancels,
BF2 is -7 so you can punish it from most blockstrings but not from max range :p Also can't punish ex rocket even though it's -6 because p u s h b a c k
Sonya - F3, F2B1*, (121/B14)~park drone in Special Forces, instant blown up grenades on block/delayed grenades on whiff in Demo (risky though, she can detonate early and you get full comboed. Use EX if you think she'll leave a gap), probably Covert Ops MS stuff
Kenshi - Kenjutsu's 11*, Possessed's DB4* (most blockstrings push him back far enough that it seems you can't punish it much unfortunately),
Even though Kenjutsu's 111 is -6 he can still backdash thanks to the pushback...great.

Might continue with this when I have the time unless someone else wants to :cool:
 
Hidan

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
OH SHIT man, why noone mentioned this yet

Guys, guys, if we can "punish" -5, why not create it?

F21 is +5 on hit. If the only option they have is backdash, that 10% dmg extend after a combo is gold in corner game. The cmd grab's recovery is 26 frames, even if backdashed you can still continue pressure as your opp is still up close.

I don't know about midscreen, have to see how much dmg goes away if you use f21 after restand

Can't test atm

Inb4 someone takes credit for this ;P
 
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Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Butcher can still do pretty good meterless damage.

Did they change the hit adv of b2? If not, I don't see why you couldn't use that to set up a 50/50.
 
freerf245

freerf245

11 11 11 11
Rude said:
Butcher can still do pretty good meterless damage.

Did they change the hit adv of b2? If not, I don't see why you couldn't use that to set up a 50/50.
Click to expand...
I played around with it quite a bit. You cant use it for a vortex. Id recommend using s4 at the end of a combo if you want a 50/50. Not a true vortex, it can be backdashed, but atleast you cant be poke out of it. Butcher is still great imo
 
Hidan

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
Rude said:
Butcher can still do pretty good meterless damage.

Did they change the hit adv of b2? If not, I don't see why you couldn't use that to set up a 50/50.
Click to expand...
When I thought of that, I also thought that they can't be that stupid nerfing only 22 and forgetting about b2. Then I thought that the patch notes may be wrong and the last nerf is not "towards BP"... let's w8 and see
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Youphemism said:
-6 moves Butcher can punish with command grab (* means as long as not at max range):

Alien - B11, 21* (-12 in Konjurer/Acidic, -6 in Tarkatan)
Jason - 32U1*/B3U1*, Slasher standing 2*, Slasher DF1* (kind of inconsistent, most stuff cancelled into it leaves Jason at a range where he can backdash to avoid the grab but not duck or jump),
Also interesting note: free punish on B122 every time, don't need to wait for the weird blockstun on it to finish. Just buffer the grab as soon as the string is finished and you'll get a reversal grab and punish #Kreygasm. Can't punish BF3 though due to pushback but it's a high and relatively slow so just duck and punish on reaction if you can.
Kung Lao - 112124/B32* (be careful of these in Hat Trick though, he can cancel them into DF2 and he's safe so he can duck/backdash the grab), Hat Trick's (B22/4)~DF2
Also UGH his D4 is -6 but you can't punish it because of pushback (SAME WITH BUZZ SAW'S LOW HAT FFS), and Hat Trick's Hat Callback is really weird because even though it's -7 he can duck the grab sometimes sooooooo I dunno what's up with that.
Jax - 3*, Pumped Up DB1* (not sure what it is on block though, not listed in movelist), some HW cancels,
BF2 is -7 so you can punish it from most blockstrings but not from max range :p Also can't punish ex rocket even though it's -6 because p u s h b a c k
Sonya - F3, F2B1*, (121/B14)~park drone in Special Forces, instant blown up grenades on block/delayed grenades on whiff in Demo (risky though, she can detonate early and you get full comboed. Use EX if you think she'll leave a gap), probably Covert Ops MS stuff
Kenshi - Kenjutsu's 11*, Possessed's DB4* (most blockstrings push him back far enough that it seems you can't punish it much unfortunately),
Even though Kenjutsu's 111 is -6 he can still backdash thanks to the pushback...great.

Might continue with this when I have the time unless someone else wants to :cool:
Click to expand...
Welp RIP.
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Hidan said:
the only good thing that may come from 8 frame grab are new ticks
Click to expand...
So, does he have any new tick throws? Anyone?

To be honest, this variation was perfectly fine before. They just made him weaker because they saw the vortex and freaked out. Although, it was a well balanced vortex with one option being punishable. Butcher has a poor neutral and almost no way to get in. He needed a big reward for landing a hit. I hate to say it, but Butcher is not viable without the vortex.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Rip Torn said:
So, does he have any new tick throws? Anyone?

To be honest, this variation was perfectly fine before. They just made him weaker because they saw the vortex and freaked out. Although, it was a well balanced vortex with one option being punishable. Butcher has a poor neutral and almost no way to get in. He needed a big reward for landing a hit. I hate to say it, but Butcher is not viable without the vortex.
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No more ticks. Not even his D1/D3. Thanks NRS for the useless nerf.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Butcher is going to be fine. This character can get the upper thirties in damage mid screen in bnbs. His combos don't require meter to hit hard so you can save it for armor.

Speaking of armor...he has six different armor moves. Fast pokes, great anti-air in his uppercut and f1, his f1 can punish a lot of moves due to it starting in 7 frames and the fact that it advances.

Low profiling can be an issue, but you have d1, stand 3, and B1 for that. Use these options and you'll condition them to stop eventually.

Butcher is definitely viable.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Unless the in-game frame data is wrong, Butcher's B2 is still +35 on hit. So if you want a vortex, use that.
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Rude said:
Unless the in-game frame data is wrong, Butcher's B2 is still +35 on hit. So if you want a vortex, use that.
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That doesn't work. Anything you do during those 35 frames will continue the combo. If you do two b2's in the same combo, the second b2 is only like +3 or something (I haven't tested this though, but it's definitely not enough to vortex).

Butcher's armor is very slow, except for the command grab, which has very poor range and whiffs on all sorts of stuff. He really has no way of building meter without taking huge risks.
 
B. Shazzy

B. Shazzy

NRS shill #42069
Rip Torn said:
That doesn't work. Anything you do during those 35 frames will continue the combo. If you do two b2's in the same combo, the second b2 is only like +3 or something (I haven't tested this though, but it's definitely not enough to vortex).

Butcher's armor is very slow, except for the command grab, which has very poor range and whiffs on all sorts of stuff. He really has no way of building meter without taking huge risks.
Click to expand...
can we play ive never been on the other side of butcher
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Rip Torn said:
That doesn't work. Anything you do during those 35 frames will continue the combo. If you do two b2's in the same combo, the second b2 is only like +3 or something (I haven't tested this though, but it's definitely not enough to vortex).

Butcher's armor is very slow, except for the command grab, which has very poor range and whiffs on all sorts of stuff. He really has no way of building meter without taking huge risks.
Click to expand...
It works if you delay. You do B2, slightly wait, then do your 50/50.

Also, f21d22 builds good meter and is safe. 22df2 has no gap, builds meter on block and is +2. His armor isn't that bad at all. Very poor range?

You mean like the range of df4?
Or bf4?

Come on, man.
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Rude said:
It works if you delay. You do B2, slightly wait, then do your 50/50.

Also, f21d22 builds good meter and is safe. 22df2 has no gap, builds meter on block and is +2. His armor isn't that bad at all. Very poor range?

You mean like the range of df4?
Or bf4?

Come on, man.
Click to expand...
b2 delay into 50/50 can be backdashed or armored.

The command grab is what has poor range. It get's low profiled and jumped, plus it whiffs on random moves like triborg's standing 4. It can also be neutral ducked. All his other armor gets stuffed all day.

2 is a 14 frame high and f2 is 19 frames startup. 22 is +2 and leaves them close to you. 22df2 pushes back too much to give you any frame traps. He's not terrible up close, but getting in is a problem, especially without meter... and he can't build meter without getting in. It's like a Catch-22.
 
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