General/Other - Butcher XL Butcher Leatherface General Discussion Thread

[Pudding&Pie]

They can armor or backdash because there will always be a 1 frame gap where 1 combo ends and the next combo begins. Those are the mechanics of a jump in punch because they are meant to combo into the next string. Before, with a string like 22, you were heavily plus, but your next normal attack wouldn't combo. So the opponent was forced to block the overhead or low because they were stuck in hitstun. Since you can't combo after the 22 string, the next attack would start a new combo, and if you guessed wrong on the overhead or low, he could loop you back into the same guessing game.

It's not just a matter of finding an attack that's more plus than your overhead/low startup frames, you actually have to understand how the mechanics of the game work and how certain strings put you in different states. Heavy hitstun and combo linkable like b2, or jip is not the same as heavy hitstun and non-combo linkable like 22 was.

I hope that explains it for everyone in this thread that keeps saying he has a vortex because X move is +Y frames. It's a little more complicated than that.

oh, its just weird how i set them to reversal and they don't when i go for the reset, i even recorded the ai and tried myself. i must be doing something wrong

 

[Rude]

They can armor or backdash because there will always be a 1 frame gap where 1 combo ends and the next combo begins. Those are the mechanics of a jump in punch because they are meant to combo into the next string. Before, with a string like 22, you were heavily plus, but your next normal attack wouldn't combo. So the opponent was forced to block the overhead or low because they were stuck in hitstun. Since you can't combo after the 22 string, the next attack would start a new combo, and if you guessed wrong on the overhead or low, he could loop you back into the same guessing game.

It's not just a matter of finding an attack that's more plus than your overhead/low startup frames, you actually have to understand how the mechanics of the game work and how certain strings put you in different states. Heavy hitstun and combo linkable like b2, or jip is not the same as heavy hitstun and non-combo linkable like 22 was.

I hope that explains it for everyone in this thread that keeps saying he has a vortex because X move is +Y frames. It's a little more complicated than that.

It's funny, because Smoke players use their JIP for their vortex and it works just fine.

But say you can't. Say it's a bill. F1 on hit = guaranteed low. So with that option in mind, there's no reason you can't go overhead instead.

At that point, it's really no different than Quan's 50/50 after d3 on hit, given that there's a gap between d3 and the overhead, but not one for the low. They still have to guess to interrupt, same for Butcher'so f1.

The vortex still exists.

 

[Rip Torn]

oh, its just weird how i set them to reversal and they don't when i go for the reset, i even recorded the ai and tried myself. i must be doing something wrong

It's funny, because Smoke players use their JIP for their vortex and it works just fine.

But say you can't. Say it's a bill. F1 on hit = guaranteed low. So with that option in mind, there's no reason you can't go overhead instead.

At that point, it's really no different than Quan's 50/50 after d3 on hit, given that there's a gap between d3 and the overhead, but not one for the low. They still have to guess to interrupt, same for Butcher'so f1.

The vortex still exists.

Edit: Yes J2 does jail into the Oh/Low. So he does have a vortex. Sorry about the misinformation.

 

[Rude]

The AI does not do reversals on hit, only on block. When you recorded it yourself, are you just comboing into the overhead/low, or are you actually leaving a gap so it starts a new combo? If you leave a gap you can always armor unless you are not timing it right. Backdashes should be easier because you can just mash.



I don't know what smoke players are doing but this Leatherface setup is a pseudo vortex. It's got most of the earmarks of a vortex except you can escape it everytime if you are on point. It really just turns into a 4 way guess, many of which don't end well for Leatherface.

Like I said, if you have a guaranteed follow up after a f1 on hit, there's no reason you can't go for the overhead instead. It's basically a 50/50 after every f1 on hit, making it a vortex.

 

[Rip Torn]

Like I said, if you have a guaranteed follow up after a f1 on hit, there's no reason you can't go for the overhead instead. It's basically a 50/50 after every f1 on hit, making it a vortex.

I just tested the f1 into f3 and no, it's not a guaranteed follow up. You can always backdash or armor. Again, armoring out is very difficult since you can't buffer special moves while in hitstun. However, you can buffer a backdash while in hitstun, so that isn't hard. A delayed f3 will catch the non-invincible frames of some backdashes.

As for smoke's vortex, it seems to have the same weakness:
http://www.twitch.tv/gallopingghostarcade/v/79329386?t=01h36m16s

I don't know about the frame data involved, but Shady got blown up twice in that set and that time he even lost a bar on ex smoke bomb plus he ate a 27% combo.

If you want to get super technical, I suppose if Butcher's f1 hit on the last active frame, he could be plus enough to jail into a f3, but I'm not sure if that's even a realistic situation.

 

[Rude]

I just tested the f1 into f3 and no, it's not a guaranteed follow up. You can always backdash or armor. Again, armoring out is very difficult since you can't buffer special moves while in hitstun. However, you can buffer a backdash while in hitstun, so that isn't hard. A delayed f3 will catch the non-invincible frames of some backdashes.

As for smoke's vortex, it seems to have the same weakness:
http://www.twitch.tv/gallopingghostarcade/v/79329386?t=01h36m16s

I don't know about the frame data involved, but Shady got blown up twice in that set and that time he even lost a bar on ex smoke bomb plus he ate a 27% combo.

If you want to get super technical, I suppose if Butcher's f1 hit on the last active frame, he could be plus enough to jail into a f3, but I'm not sure if that's even a realistic situation.

Fair enough. If you read the backdash, why couldn't you do f12 to blow it up? Link in bop at the end and it's safe.

Edit: Just tried f12 after f1 on hit and I'm not able to armor, backdash, or x-ray. It all gets beat by f12.

I know, "has a gap, etc." Look, a very common TYM talking point is that if pressure isn't air tight like A-List, it's useless. The reality is that they don't always have a bar for armor.

Is it possible that Shady mis-timed it or was late? Human error is a thing, after all.

To be clear, no one is saying he's zomg top tier, but I don't think these weaknesses are that bad with use of conditioning.

 

[Rip Torn]

Fair enough. If you read the backdash, why couldn't you do f12 to blow it up? Link in bop at the end and it's safe.

Edit: Just tried f12 after f1 on hit and I'm not able to armor, backdash, or x-ray. It all gets beat by f12.

I know, "has a gap, etc." Look, a very common TYM talking point is that if pressure isn't air tight like A-List, it's useless. The reality is that they don't always have a bar for armor.

Is it possible that Shady mis-timed it or was late? Human error is a thing, after all.

To be clear, no one is saying he's zomg top tier, but I don't think these weaknesses are that bad with use of conditioning.

Yeah, you could probably jail into a bunch of stuff off f1 on hit since it puts them into 17 frames of non-comboable hitstun. It's actually probably a very good and legit find and I think it could be his goto ender for his pseudo vortex now. I just wanted to clarify that it's not a guaranteed 50/50. He lost that with the nerfs and I don't think he'll ever have that again.

I don't think the gap is a huge issue, but it's there. I think the main issue is no safe hit confirms off his fast strings or the low and no way to build meter in neutral. And his neutral is pretty bad when you compare it to other characters or his other variations.

Edit: Not sure if Shady mis-timed it or what because I'm not familiar with smoke's vortex/frame data.

 

[gibster13]

Slightly off topic

But this is a very funny butcher glitch

 

[CrazyFingers]

@TommyKing5
@PND OmegaK
@ii 2shay ii
@SHAOLIN
@Kokoko
@ShrekForXbox
@SHAOLIN
@xGunShow
@Immortal

HEY! I need your guys' opinion (and anyone else who bumps into this) I was wondering if I should make a more in depth Butcher specific guide. I know I made the one for Killer and Butcher but

A: My Butcher is better than my killer so my information for that will be better.

B: I have played more Butcher so I have more experience on what you might want to be doing.

C: There are nuances about Butcher that I barely touched on in that guide.

SO! Should I either just make that first guide a just Killer guide and remove the Butcher fluff and make a Butcher Specific guide or should I just make a Butcher specific guide and keep the original normal? I plan on putting it out when the patch comes so I can have it up to date.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Fair enough. If you read the backdash, why couldn't you do f12 to blow it up? Link in bop at the end and it's safe.

Edit: Just tried f12 after f1 on hit and I'm not able to armor, backdash, or x-ray. It all gets beat by f12.

I know, "has a gap, etc." Look, a very common TYM talking point is that if pressure isn't air tight like A-List, it's useless. The reality is that they don't always have a bar for armor.

Is it possible that Shady mis-timed it or was late? Human error is a thing, after all.

To be clear, no one is saying he's zomg top tier, but I don't think these weaknesses are that bad with use of conditioning.

F1 on hit will jail into another F1. You're plus 15, it's 7f, so if they try mashing back dash in reaction to a mix, they'll get blown up by it. If they block F12, you can DF2 and while it's armorable, a lot of people don't armor it.

 

[ShrekForXbox]

@TommyKing5
@PND OmegaK
@ii 2shay ii
@SHAOLIN
@Kokoko
@ShrekForXbox
@SHAOLIN
@xGunShow
@Immortal

HEY! I need your guys' opinion (and anyone else who bumps into this) I was wondering if I should make a more in depth Butcher specific guide. I know I made the one for Killer and Butcher but

A: My Butcher is better than my killer so my information for that will be better.

B: I have played more Butcher so I have more experience on what you might want to be doing.

C: There are nuances about Butcher that I barely touched on in that guide.

SO! Should I either just make that first guide a just Killer guide and remove the Butcher fluff and make a Butcher Specific guide or should I just make a Butcher specific guide and keep the original normal? I plan on putting it out when the patch comes so I can have it up to date.

To me it seems the best route would be to remove the Butcher parts of the Killer Guide and put them into their own guide. It'd be interesting to here the extras of Butcher since he's my least played variation of Leatherface.

 

[CrazyFingers]

To me it seems the best route would be to remove the Butcher parts of the Killer Guide and put them into their own guide. It'd be interesting to here the extras of Butcher since he's my least played variation of Leatherface.

Yea it's just some stuff that I didn't go over like some spacing stuff, what to do on restands and some other important stuffs.

 

[ShArp]

So does he still have a vortex or not? If so, is it from the JIP after B2 or from F1 after B2? PC player here. Im planning to play him in MKXL soon.

 

[freerf245]

So does he still have a vortex or not? If so, is it from the JIP after B2 or from F1 after B2? PC player here. Im planning to play him in MKXL soon.

F1 isnt guaranteed. They have 1 frame to armor or backdash. Jip im not too sure about. I just use f1. Don't care if it's not real.

 

[Rude]

You can 50/50 after a JIP after b2 on hit provided you time it correctly.

 

[ShArp]

Alright, thanks.

You guys expect him to get buffed in Oct. 4th pacth or not really?

 

[thlityoursloat]

Ye, he gets his vortex the same way Smoke does.

 

[ShArp]

Ye, he gets his vortex the same way Smoke does.

From JIP I assume?

 

[freerf245]

Alright, thanks.

You guys expect him to get buffed in Oct. 4th pacth or not really?

Doubt it. He'll probably remain how he is. Maybe a mid of some sort if were lucky.

 

[thlityoursloat]

From JIP I assume?

Yeah, short delay after ji2.

 

[CrazyFingers]

If a ton of characters get buffs, he'll get some but if NRS tones it down on the buff train he'll probably get like one buff and that's it

 

[ShArp]

If a ton of characters get buffs, he'll get some but if NRS tones it down on the buff train he'll probably get like one buff and that's it

Maybe increases his 2,2 hitstun back again?

 

[CrazyFingers]

Maybe increases his 2,2 hitstun back again?

If they do that I'm in heaven. Also giving me a mid to use would be nice or at least making Butcher's current mid less shitty.

 

[ShArp]

If they do that I'm in heaven. Also giving me a mid to use would be nice or at least making Butcher's current mid less shitty.

Tbh as I Tremor-Only main, who has zero interest in current cast on PC (which is without KP2/GGPO in current state) because I either don't like their gameplay styles / overall design - I can't fucking wait for GGPO/KP2 PC update on October 4th, not only because Tremor is about to get some love - but also because I can't wait to 2nd main Butcher.

There's something about Butcher's design and that B2 hammer to head animation that makes him so fking brutal/badass in my eyes. When I saw his pre-patch vortex I was amazed - you still have vortex from crossup JIP, or F1 but it's not guaranteed and takes a risk now. Still, even if he won't get buff for his 2,2 - Im gonna main the shit out of him.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

ok, I dont use LF or have any hate towards him whatsoever. but i remember prepatch him having some pretty dumb shit like the million options including dumb as fuck corner damage and unblockable cancels.

I want to see him more, but want NRS to be careful when buffing him.

just saying. not against buffs just lets be cautious when buffing.