Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

[-Nachtmahr-]

Idk if you are all over 50 but there is plenty of time to confirm f2 into a follow-up. The animation itself and you have quite some frames after hitting it. Same goes for all the crying about the speed of f2. In Sf you deal with 3f jabs and throws, Tekken has hellsweeps and ewgf, anime fighters in general are very fast paced but here we are, crying because of 18+ frame moves. He only needs some more minus frames but is fine otherwise. I hope NRS won't listen to anyone except tournament players this time around

 

[santanabar]

wtf is this? "vortex is okayyy, because overhead is unsafe"... do you realize most of the characters doesn't even have 50/50 (or just an overhead) combo starter?

and it's not like his neutral sucks, it's actually amazing. Amazing pokes, amazing range, amazing damage, you cannot trade projectiles vs iceball, space control with air axes... bUt HiS oVerHeaD Is uNSafE

 

[M.D.]

These sub zero downplayers really don't realize that their solution to not triple lose to their char is "just guess right"

Learn to guess noob!

everyone is forgetting the throw spam in the low string stagger. GO1 was doing b32 -6 into d1 spam and destroying everyone.

Reactable my ass. Unsafe my ass.

Neef dat shit.

 

[Landonio]

Ya but throws are 10f, not 12. You said the throw break window is 9-10f so... that means you’re saying people are reacting to a 19-20f window? Interesting, that’s about how long SZ’s f2 takes to connect. And in an online environment, players have to react even faster to compensate for latency.

The other figure you mentioned, 22f being in the cusp of human reaction? That’s on average, a little slower even. Repeated exposure to stimulus, or “practice,” reduces that number (exactly how much depends on the person).

And that throw break option select isn’t really an option select. The moment you input a 1 or 2, the game reads it and rejects the the 2nd input.

Ok, now you go.

Yes, you have to react even faster online. Which is why no one is consistently reacting to F2 online. Or even throws for that matter, and those are easier to react to. That's exactly what I'm saying. You're making my argument. If you've got some video evidence, I'd love to see it, but so far I have not. Which wouldn't even be definitive proof because as mentioned before, many throw techs are complete accidents anyway.

What I'm saying is what's reactable on AVERAGE. I'm not saying that things in the 18-22f range are IMPOSSIBLE to react to (sub-18f is a different story though). It's just that the odds aren't in your favor, ESPECIALLY online. You have to understand, the AVERAGE human is more than likely not reacting to something that's 19 frames. Period. And MK has more "average humans" playing it than ANY other fighting game. It's the most casual and most popular fighting game on the market. The VAST majority of people playing online are not doing this. The average high level fighting game player =/= average PERSON. Hell, average GAMER doesn't even = average person. You're going against science here bro.

"Hey, if SonicFox did, so ANYONE can do it!"
"LeBron did it, so anyone can do it!"

Bad logic. These guys are anomalies.

But also let me reiterate, regardless of what I'm saying here, I'm not in the "NERF SUB NAO!" camp. I wouldn't riot in the streets if (Brain)Dead of Winter got a few minor adjustments, but I honestly wouldn't care that much if he didn't get touched. Once again, I'm a Thin Ice player. It's the more interesting and personally more appealing variation. I put my 50/50 days behind me when I stopped playing Covert Ops Sonyer in MKX years ago. Got boring.

And the throw break OS IS an OS. Why would I post something that isn't real or that I (and others) haven't tested? It works. There's even videos on it. Timing is tricky, but it works. Try it yourself.

 

[GLoRToR]

Glortor isn't on your ignore lists? Why?

Last I checked we were playing sets and chatting and then suddenly I'm somehow on your ignore list?
Oh, the drama. Gasp.

 

[RM Ree]

Yes, you have to react even faster online. Which is why no one is consistently reacting to F2 online. Or even throws for that matter, and those are easier to react to. That's exactly what I'm saying. You're making my argument. If you've got some video evidence, I'd love to see it, but so far I have not. Which wouldn't even be definitive proof because as mentioned before, many throw techs are complete accidents anyway.

What I'm saying is what's reactable on AVERAGE. I'm not saying that things in the 18-22f range are IMPOSSIBLE to react to (sub-18f is a different story though). It's just that the odds aren't in your favor, ESPECIALLY online. You have to understand, the AVERAGE human is more than likely not reacting to something that's 19 frames. Period. And MK has more "average humans" playing it than ANY other fighting game. It's the most casual and most popular fighting game on the market. The VAST majority of people playing online are not doing this. The average high level fighting game player =/= average PERSON. Hell, average GAMER doesn't even = average person. You're going against science here bro.

"Hey, if SonicFox did, so ANYONE can do it!"
"LeBron did it, so anyone can do it!"

Bad logic. These guys are anomalies.

But also let me reiterate, regardless of what I'm saying here, I'm not in the "NERF SUB NAO!" camp. I wouldn't riot in the streets if (Brain)Dead of Winter got a few minor adjustments, but I honestly wouldn't care that much if he didn't get touched. Once again, I'm a Thin Ice player. It's the more interesting and personally more appealing variation. I put my 50/50 days behind me when I stopped playing Covert Ops Sonyer in MKX years ago. Got boring.

And the throw break OS IS an OS. Why would I post something that isn't real or that I (and others) haven't tested? It works. There's even videos on it. Timing is tricky, but it works. Try it yourself.

Nuh uh!

 

[jcbowie]

Idk if you are all over 50 but there is plenty of time to confirm f2 into a follow-up. The animation itself and you have quite some frames after hitting it. Same goes for all the crying about the speed of f2. In Sf you deal with 3f jabs and throws, Tekken has hellsweeps and ewgf, anime fighters in general are very fast paced but here we are, crying because of 18+ frame moves. He only needs some more minus frames but is fine otherwise. I hope NRS won't listen to anyone except tournament players this time around

I don't really care about SF, but in Tekken people very often complain about how impossible it is to react to Hellsweeps and those moves have similar startup frames to Sub's f2. Maybe a little less but right there in that 17~18 frame range. Sub's overhead in MKX was 17 frames and that was absolutely not reactable, no matter how much people insisted it was. I really don't believe that we can hand-wave away a 19 frame move as "reactable."

 

[Zoidberg747]

Man I love Tom brady rants!!!

And as usual, he preaches the truth.

Where's the outcry for Erron nerfs, he only has a full screen dead of winter mix? Oh wait, people only mindlessly drone on about whatever sonic fox says. And sonic fox has wanted sub nerfed every MK.

Literally everyone has been talking about Erron being broke and needing nerfs, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.

P.S. I'm on the fence of whether Sub needs nerfs or not. F2 being reactable 100% of the time is a huge bill as it is whenever that argument comes up with 19f 50/50s. Even still, His B3 has bad range, is definitely not staggerable (I punish Sub's going for any followups with Baraka's df1 every time) and his F2 is full combo punishable even if they try to hitconfirm it.

I don't know why people focus on Flawless blocking F4. Obviously that is the best option as it leads to a combo, but you can also just d1 him because it's so slow. He shouldn't be able to F4 in your face constantly.

Don't get me wrong, he's undeniably top tier and probably will still be unless they gut him. I think his walk speed is one of the best in the game, which makes his footsies really good. But idk if i'd put him in my "definitely needs toning down" tier just yet (Sonya, Geras, EB).

Edit: "Punish" is the wrong word for b3, but he should not be able to stagger it. Whether he just does b3 or b32, he is minus enough that you can d1 stuff him, backdash, etc. You do have to practice it though and watch out for Sub's walking back because they can whiff punish you. But I wouldn't classify it as a stagger, or at least not a very good one.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Literally everyone has been talking about Erron being broke and needing nerfs, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.

P.S. I'm on the fence of whether Sub needs nerfs or not. F2 being reactable 100% of the time is a huge bill as it is whenever that argument comes up with 19f 50/50s. Even still, His B3 has bad range, is definitely not staggerable (I punish Sub's going for any followups with Baraka's df1 every time) and his F2 is full combo punishable even if they try to hitconfirm it.

I don't know why people focus on Flawless blocking F4. Obviously that is the best option as it leads to a combo, but you can also just d1 him because it's so slow. He shouldn't be able to F4 in your face constantly.

Don't get me wrong, he's undeniably top tier and probably will still be unless they gut him. I think his walk speed is one of the best in the game, which makes his footsies really good. But idk if i'd put him in my "definitely needs toning down" tier just yet (Sonya, Geras, EB).

Edit: "Punish" is the wrong word for b3, but he should not be able to stagger it. Whether he just does b3 or b32, he is minus enough that you can d1 stuff him, backdash, etc. You do have to practice it though and watch out for Sub's walking back because they can whiff punish you. But I wouldn't classify it as a stagger, or at least not a very good one.

I mean, I agree with you aside from the being reactable part... I never said that.

Although I don't think he needs a nerf at all

 

[Zoidberg747]

I mean, I agree with you aside from the being reactable part... I never said that.

Although I don't think he needs a nerf at all

Only the first line was replying directly to you, because people are definitely calling for Erron nerfs lol.

The rest is just me talking about the thread. A lot of people are arguing about F2 being reactable which is what i'm responding to.

 

[powpeepew]

FACTS

1) Despite his mix-up versatility, Sub-Zero LACKS in raw damage department compared to most other characters (eg. ErronBlack, SonyaBlade, NoobSaibot just to name a few). His 1 meter combos are LOWER than meterless combos of some characters in the game, requiring Sub-Zero players to play very smartly and utilize his KBs and Fatal Blow to cash out damage. Sub-Zero players know this, but other players choose to ignore this (out of spite perhaps).

2) His amplified IceBall is only available in 1 variation (Dead on Winter), not to mention his Slide (hits LOW) is also replaced by Cold Shoulder (hits MID and slightly harder, but is slower and dashes a shorter distance) in this variation as well. Hence, Sub-Zero only has TWO special moves in this so-called OP variation, limiting his playstyle in a game where teleporting (Scorpion/Noob/KungLao etc) and projectile spamming (ahem Skarlet, thus requiring him to use ExIceBall duh) is so common. Also, he can't punish his opponents from afar with Slide anymore as well, not to mention his Slide/Cold Shoulder are very unsafe on block.

3) While the ExIceBall grants Sub-Zero ability to execute full Overhead combos as well as absorb projectiles, it requires Sub-Zero to utilise 1 bar of meter, and the damage output for this 1 meter overhead combo is not spectacular at all, proven by the video. It's laughable that people do not mention about ErronBlack's pistol special move that can swiftly destroy enemy projectiles as well (both meterless and amplified), even Sub-Zero's amplified IceBall @.@

3) People always define Sub-Zero as a mix-up god, but they do not realise that aside from the first hit of his kombos, Sub-Zero is the ONLY character in the game where ALL of his kombo strings only hit MID. Therefore, if someone manages to block Sub-Zero successfully on the first hit, all he/she needs to do is to block LOW. Example, his overhead string hits OVERHEAD, MID, MID, and his low string hits LOW, MID, MID, you get my drift. Therefore, he is not as OP as losers portray him to be.

In conclusion, no, Sub-Zero does not need a nerf. Players need to learn how to counter and overcome each character in the game through TRAINING, and not RAGE and COMPLAIN about Sub-Zero being OP whenever they lose to Sub-Zero's exIceBall @.@ I feel that his low damage output already justifies the reason that he should not be nerfed. As what MKTomBrady said in his other video, ragers be like "Imma do my mix, and you gonna do your mix, and if your mix beat my mix, your mix got to go". Quite ironic that aside from his one OVERHEAD starter (19 startup btw, easily punished and kountered by faster moves) and one LOW starter (13 startup), his kombo strings all hit MID, so his mix-ups are not that strong as people say. So no more hating on Sub-Zero alright, just practice and be better at playing the game before you complain next time. Cheers

 

[M.D.]

GO1 was staggering the low just fine.
Subzero needs a nerf because you still have to GUESS while he doesn't.

 

[Javoo On Fire]

I think dead of winter is going to get gutted, better off playing thin ice

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

I don't know what is worse, people asking for nerfs on everything or people saying "BUT WE USED TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH BROKEN CHARACTERS FOR YEARS!!1!!!!1!!! like we're still in the 90s
I personally think heavy 50/50 characters shouldn't have a place in this game, especially with everything they said about them. But that's just me.

 

[omooba]

just make f2 a mid since apparently you guys don't use it for 50/50s

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It is definitely early to ask for Nerfs and buffs but that's NRS games. We all know characters will get nerfed specifically:
SubZero, Scorpion, Geras, Sonya and Erron.

The problem in previous games was not that characters got Nerfed. It was that the wrong tools where nerfed effecting the character overall. Cyrax was an example of this, he had a reset which was broke and needed to go but instead if nerfing the net which allowed the reset they nerfed the bomb. On top of this Smoke and Sektor had tools that where game breaking and Cyrax got effected by thier Nerfs. In short Nerfs effected the wrong things and dropped the character several tiers. There where several characters that was effected the same way but I'll move on.

Only moves or tools that are truly game breaking should be adjusted. MK11 is a neutral heavy game with focus on the back and forth. Scorpion has a Teleport that has a guess game to it and it is so fast it can be done anywhere, eliminating what we call neutral. No other character can do this with thier teleport since they have longer recovery and startup. I'd rather they just make it a high so it can still be used in neutral and to punish on reads but not to steal turns and escape corner when opponent worked hard to win neutral.

Sub Zero:
Most characters are focused on having limited mixups(Overhead/Low) starters. Not counting throws and number of hit guess. Sub Zero has a safe low starter and an unsafe overhead. This is how it should be but in a tournament variation he can use deep freeze to combo off the overhead and stay safe using just F2 without 4. This may be to powerful and does go against what NRS said they where striving for in MK11. I'm not 100% sure we should nerf it but if that was decided then just make F2 not comboable into freeze.

Sonya:
Has a ring cancel off B12/B14 in the corner leading to 50%. I think it should be toned down but leave her mix just Nerf the ring cancel so it can be used to cancel a mix into another mix. She will still be top tier.

We need to be very careful with Nerfs and buffs so we don't screw up characters and don't make others rediculous.

Buffs:
Are a much needed part of balance and allows characters to have a fighting chance against top tiers they otherwise couldn't.

Frost, D'Vorah, Kotal Kahn, Shao Kahn, Kung Lao need slight buffs on a few things to compete at the highest level.
Kano, Kollector and Raiden need slight adjustments to better deal with top tier tools. There may be more Characters but those are the ones I've run across.

Krushing Blows:
Need to be addressed and many have rediculous requirements or lackluster damage with a few getting way to much damage. They need to be more practical and more of a reward for some.

Female Hitboxes:
Many characters mids wiff on female hitboxes especially when crouching (Kotal 12 and F12) for example. Some highs completely wiff of standing females. This needs to be addressed.

Wiffing moves:
Many characters have moves that are not functioning properly and completely miss when in range, losing them the match. Kotal, Shao, Frost, Raiden, Jade U2 FB launcher and Kung Lao are some of them I've run across.

MK11 is a great game and possibly the finest once characters are at an equal skill level.

Just my 0.02¢

 

[Sazbak]

Female Hitboxes:
Many characters mids wiff on female hitboxes especially when crouching. Some highs completely wiff of standing females. This needs to be addressed.

What? What are those highs that whiff on some standing females?

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

@Vslayer I don't think cassie's combo problem is that exclusive to her

 

[Vslayer]

@Vslayer I don't think cassie's combo problem is that exclusive to her

Damn, they should fix this.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Damn, they should fix this.

Hopefully they do

 

[Jaywayday84]

Well said. I can personally live with this change.

I don't agree with nerfing him. It's all in practice, muscle memory, conditioning the opponent & punishing mistakes.

 

[RM Ree]

Sub Zero:
Most characters are focused on having limited mix. Sub Zero has a safe low starter and an unsafe overhead. This is how it should be but in a tournament variation he can use deep freeze to combo off the overhead and stay safe.

This is not true. Sub Zero CANNOT stay safe by using f2 xx deep freeze/ ex ice ball. This is -15 and can be full combo punished by EVERYONE.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Every time a new mk drops I feel like Tom Brady gets me stuck in a kronika time loop with these vids

Same. You could set your watch to it.

I hope he stays as is.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Same. You could set your watch to it.

I hope he stays as is.

Credit to @PND OmegaK for this work of art

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

This is not true. Sub Zero CANNOT stay safe by using f2 xx deep freeze/ ex ice ball. This is -15 and can be full combo punished by EVERYONE.

Yeah I worded that wrong. F2 is safe deep freeze combos.
But most Characters can't combo off both and have to use conditioning. But like I said not sure if he needs Nerfs but if he was that would make him similar to most of A Tier.
Look at Liu Kang which only has a low and no Overhead aside from hop. His main string is a mid that he conditions opponents to not poke the gap on the plus on block U3 by useing parry and cutting it off short and throwing.
If I had my way we would buff the bottom. But the tops will get nerfed and even if he loses combo from Overhead he will still be string having both an Overhead and Low to condition in this meta.
I'm genuinely trying to keep Sub in tact. All of my Characters where ruined by Nerfs in previous games. They never Nerf what needs to be nerfed but what is associated with it effecting the character as a whole.

I use the thin ice variation of Sub Zero so you know I'm team Sub and always have been since MK1