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Why is counterpicking looked down upon?

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Eldriken

Guest
SaltShaker said:
Shadow is a girl, a super hot one too. Bet that blew your mind lol.
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It certainly explains the "I'm better than everyone" vibes I get from her. She seems to be one of those chicks that's pretty until they open their mouth.
 
Agilaz

Agilaz

It has begun
Interesting trend in here, the majority of those who dismiss counter picking (and tier whoring) are people who play either Kung Lao or Shinnok.

Coincidence? :DOGE

On topic though, everybody is free to counter pick. But by doing so you're basically admitting you are no longer capable of beating your opponent and need a character that does all the work for you instead.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Its not looked down on but nobody likes when their character gets counter picked.

We hate it when it happens to us but we would all do it in a heart beat if it means our tournament lives.
 
QUAN-FUSION

QUAN-FUSION

Crotch-puncher
I hate when playing online people just wait for you to pick first so they can pick the appropriate counter.. That's just lame.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Enexemander said:
Honor will always be respected. Overcoming all odds while disadvantaged will always be respected.

Mankind will forever rememeber the Spartan stand. The various rollover victories of the Persian army is a foot note to that reality. More, it is back story to the stand of the 300.

That's just something that the FGC is going to have to come to terms with. It's not just about winning; HOW you win is important when determining the on going narrative. For most, the struggle between honorable advanecement and any-means-necessary advanecement only plays out in your own hearts and minds. Realistically, 99.5 percent of us are going to get smoked by DJT regardless of the match-up. What do you want your personal narrative to be? "DJT beat my ass even though I counter picked." Or "DJT smoked my ass even though I stuck to my guns."

It's up to you to pick what's important to you personally. I know that I, and most people, remember and respect character loyalists more. It's just a fact. When this game is long gone, I'll remember the Honeybees of the game and wonder who they'll pick up next for the next game, because I can expect great things from them. The rest just fall into the background noise.
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See to me, this line of thinking is a problem if you're a competitive player that wants to improve. An actual problem. This is the way casuals think, the way scrubs think. There should only be one question that matters; did you win? And there's only 2 answers to this question. Every other question and every other answer is irrelevant. It just is. Character loyalty doesn't matter, win or lose. What matters, in fact, is if you won or lost.

Let me put it in another way that I have before. I'd rather win without honor, than lose for the sake of it.
 
Agilaz

Agilaz

It has begun
Juggs said:
See to me, this line of thinking is a problem if you're a competitive player that wants to improve. An actual problem. This is the way casuals think, the way scrubs think. There should only be one question that matters; did you win? And there's only 2 answers to this question. Every other question and every other answer is irrelevant. It just is. Character loyalty doesn't matter, win or lose. What matters, in fact, is if you won or lost.

Let me put it in another way that I have before. I'd rather win without honor, than lose for the sake of it.
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Just my two cents, but you could make that very same argument in the other direction.

How do you even improve when your character is a braindead POS that does all the work for you? How have you proven your superiority as a player, when you've only shown that your character is designed in such a way to be very, very good?
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Juggs said:
See to me, this line of thinking is a problem if you're a competitive player that wants to improve. An actual problem. This is the way casuals think, the way scrubs think. There should only be one question that matters; did you win? And there's only 2 answers to this question. Every other question and every other answer is irrelevant. It just is. Character loyalty doesn't matter, win or lose. What matters, in fact, is if you won or lost.

Let me put it in another way that I have before. I'd rather win without honor, than lose for the sake of it.
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you're right there's only one question but it's actually did you win...with your waifu.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Agilaz said:
Just my two cents, but you could make that very same argument in the other direction.

How do you even improve when your character is a braindead POS that does all the work for you? How have you proven your superiority as a player, when you've only shown that your character is designed in such a way to be very, very good?
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You can't because the other direction is subjective. Being labeled honorable, or being respected are subjective things, it's different based on the person. What I find honorable or respectable might be completely different than you or others. However, winning and/or losing is universal. It's objective. It's measurable.

There is no character that is legally allowed to use that does all the work for you. If this were the case, the top 8's would be flooded with many different random people using the same character. If the argument is then that there is at least some player skill, than what actually is the argument then?
 
Agilaz

Agilaz

It has begun
Juggs said:
You can't because the other direction is subjective. Being labeled honorable, or being respected are subjective things, it's different based on the person. What I find honorable or respectable might be completely different than you or others. However, winning and/or losing is universal. It's objective. It's measurable.

There is no character that is legally allowed to use that does all the work for you. If this were the case, the top 8's would be flooded with many different random people using the same character. If the argument is then that there is at least some player skill, than what actually is the argument then?
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You're presenting this as if you completely lack a sense of nuance. Sure, at the end of the day the W is what matters, but if my opponent is gonna be a scumbag about I don't see why he should be praised for it in any way. Like really, are you proud of winning a 7-3 or 8-2? How did you outplay me in any way when your character is DESIGNED to kill my character no matter how much better I am at any given aspect of the game?

More importantly, how does any part of that win improve your overall skill at the game? You're stuck at the same low level, never learning because you choose the path of least resistance.
 
Xentex

Xentex

Noob
If a pitcher in baseball intentionally walks a good hitter, it's not lame. It's playing to win.

If a quarterback in football calls an audible at the line it's not lame, it's adjusting to the defense on the field.

If any sports team finds that what it's doing on the field isn't working it adjusts strategies in an effort to win. If that means putting in backup players, switching to zone defense, changing the goalie, etc. that's what they do. You don't say,"well, our starting pitcher is getting shelled after 2 innings, but we're going to man up and let him go 7 because that's just good sportsmanship. We made a choice that's clearly not working for us, but the manly thing to do is stand by that decision and lose."

The concept of a "main" in MKX seems like an admission that you aren't good enough to be equally proficient with multiple characters. And why draw the line at characters? Why not variations? Why not say "he's a Tempest main, he switched variations, that's lame."

It's not "win at all costs", it's "put forward the best effort you can within the boundaries of the rules to win." Obviously there are rules in sports, and there are boundaries in MKX. Unplugging your opponent's controller or throwing a beer in his face during play is clearly outside the understood boundaries of the game. MKX is balanced enough that as long as you're not interfering with the other player's ability to execute to the best of his skill level, and you're not using technology to give you an unfair advantage (e.g., macros) you're within the rules of acceptable play.
 
Solignac

Solignac

Noob
Juggs said:
Counter picking is looked down upon by scrubs who believe in "honor" and "fairness" and other nonsensical bullshit. The same way "spamming" is looked down upon, the same way "tier whoring" is looked down upon, the same way abusing something in the game is looked down upon. It's about who they are looked down upon by, they are all scrubs.

And you know what? No, I don't want no scrubs.
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I think calling everyone a scrub who complains about it is pretty childish. While professional players don't always say something like "Wow, you're a counterpicking asshole" , I've seen plenty of tournament fights where during and after a player is often complaining about how it was just too hard to fight a character that counters the tools they have. I don't think it's about "honor" and "fairness", more like it sucks to watch and it sucks to play. Like Shinnok vs. Hollywood Cassie. Shinnok can just use hell sparks as many times as he wants because cassie can only punish with Ex Guns. It's pretty annoying to watch and I can imagine it's pretty shitty to play too. Tournaments thrive on audiences watching matches and watching blow up matches because a character counters another is lame and anticlimactic.
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
yeah everyone gets it's playing to win and within the rules. I don't think anyone suggests that someone counter picking should have their prize money revoked or something. the question is just about props and obviously someone overcoming difficulty will get more props and the player trying to get every advantage they can will get less props or be in the villain role.

this thread has a bunch of dudes acting like badasses with real talk about playing to win and ironically the most real post was from Enexemander.
 
Agilaz

Agilaz

It has begun
Dinosaur said:
scumbag is a relative term, i could say you sound like a scumbag for getting so emotional over which character someone chooses in a fighting game.
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Fair enough, I could call you a scumbag for misinterpreting what I said. I said in an earlier post that if somebody wants to do it they're free to do so, but that it's also a direct admission that they can no longer beat you within their own skill capacity as a player.

But hey, since it's all theoritical, we're good.
 
Enexemander

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
Juggs said:
See to me, this line of thinking is a problem if you're a competitive player that wants to improve. An actual problem. This is the way casuals think, the way scrubs think. There should only be one question that matters; did you win? And there's only 2 answers to this question. Every other question and every other answer is irrelevant. It just is. Character loyalty doesn't matter, win or lose. What matters, in fact, is if you won or lost.

Let me put it in another way that I have before. I'd rather win without honor, than lose for the sake of it.
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True for you but not for me, which is part of what I was getting at. The greatest teacher is loss. Avoiding loss by running to more favorable match-ups is not an avenue to improvement, then. Rather, that is the quick road that avoids the necessity of it.

If winning was all that mattered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. There is a divergence of motivations here. There's winning in a way that commands respect, and a way that grudgingly acknowledges the fact with no real accolades.

One can lose and be remembered, and win and be forgotten. The worth of Glory may be subjective, but it exists regardless.
 
Dinosaur

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
Agilaz said:
Fair enough, I could call you a scumbag for misinterpreting what I said. I said in an earlier post that if somebody wants to do it they're free to do so, but that it's also a direct admission that they can no longer beat you within their own skill capacity as a player.

But hey, since it's all theoritical, we're good.
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as a player or as a player playing that character, those are different things.
 
Bomborge

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
Agilaz said:
You're presenting this as if you completely lack a sense of nuance. Sure, at the end of the day the W is what matters, but if my opponent is gonna be a scumbag about I don't see why he should be praised for it in any way. Like really, are you proud of winning a 7-3 or 8-2? How did you outplay me in any way when your character is DESIGNED to kill my character no matter how much better I am at any given aspect of the game?

More importantly, how does any part of that win improve your overall skill at the game? You're stuck at the same low level, never learning because you choose the path of least resistance.
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He should be praised because he won. There is nothing scumbaggy about counterpicking especially in a competition where something may be on the line. I get that winning a 8-2 or 7-3 matchup against your favor is difficult, but if you are choosing to stick it out with a single character that evidently has these bad matchups, its your own fault if you get counterpicked and lose because of said counterpick. Even then, to my understanding, matchup numbers only apply to highest level of play so while yes, one may have a huge advantage by counterpicking, its not as if the character is doing all the work alone contrary to what you are implying.

Also, that last bit is not true whatsoever. Least resistance still means there is resistance so you can still learn and improve even when you counterpick someone. Just as well, as I said before, contrary to what you are implying, just because you counterpick someone doesn't mean you're guaranteed a win solely based on the fact that that character is a counterpick to other character.
 
Agilaz

Agilaz

It has begun
Bomborge said:
He should be praised because he won. There is nothing scumbaggy about counterpicking especially in a competition where something may be on the line. I get that winning a 8-2 or 7-3 matchup against your favor is difficult, but if you are choosing to stick it out with a single character that evidently has these bad matchups, its your own fault if you get counterpicked and lose because of said counterpick. Even then, to my understanding, matchup numbers only apply to highest level of play so while yes, one may have a huge advantage by counterpicking, its not as if the character is doing all the work alone contrary to what you are implying.

Also, that last bit is not true whatsoever. Least resistance still means there is resistance so you can still learn and improve even when you counterpick someone. Just as well, as I said before, contrary to what you are implying, just because you counterpick someone doesn't mean you're guaranteed a win solely based on the fact that that character is a counterpick to other character.
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You can try and defend that shit as much as you want, but what I said is still true because it's the very nature of counter picking. Losing too much? Just pick somebody who does better against your opponent by design. Picking this new character doesn't suddenly give you new insight or new levels of execution or better reading abilities. You're still the guy who lost a bunch of games and then had to run off to the 7-3. So no, no praise at all. #sorrynotsorry
 
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