Why is counterpicking looked down upon?

[ForeverKing]

Honor will always be respected. Overcoming all odds while disadvantaged will always be respected.

Mankind will forever rememeber the Spartan stand. The various rollover victories of the Persian army is a foot note to that reality. More, it is back story to the stand of the 300.

That's just something that the FGC is going to have to come to terms with. It's not just about winning; HOW you win is important when determining the on going narrative. For most, the struggle between honorable advanecement and any-means-necessary advanecement only plays out in your own hearts and minds. Realistically, 99.5 percent of us are going to get smoked by DJT regardless of the match-up. What do you want your personal narrative to be? "DJT beat my ass even though I counter picked." Or "DJT smoked my ass even though I stuck to my guns."

It's up to you to pick what's important to you personally. I know that I, and most people, remember and respect character loyalists more. It's just a fact. When this game is long gone, I'll remember the Honeybees of the game and wonder who they'll pick up next for the next game, because I can expect great things from them. The rest just fall into the background noise.

Well it's different comparing character loyalists of top tiers with no bad matchups, like the example you used Honeybee. Flash might have 0-1 losing matchups, so it's easy for somebody to use a character like that and be a character loyalist. Same with Reo using Kabal, Theo using Aquaman, Jupiter using Martian. It's easy being a character loyalist when your character doesn't really lose to anyone. That's much different from say like Digit being a character loyalist with Shazam for example.

But then there are people like me, who could be a character loyalist if they really wanted to. There were MK9 tournaments where I only used Kung Lao, Injustice tournaments where I only used Batman, and MKX tournaments where I only used Kung Jin. But it gets boring only using one character honestly, I get bored of the games fast only using one character. I learn a new character like every other week just to keep me interested in the game.

After I've learned so many characters at a high level, when it's time for me to play in tournament I might as well utilize the skills that I have to win, which is playing the character of mine that I have in my pocket that does the best against what I'm facing in tournament at that moment.

Some people don't choose the counter pick life, the counter pick life chooses them

 

[REO]

When are we gonna start giving props to the players who win tournaments or beat very good players regardless of character usage.

Seriously, you rarely see these sort of special entitlements in other enormous community games like DotA or Melee where the competition is monstrous.

There are only champions and formidable opponents. Nothing more.

 

[Bomborge]

You can try and defend that shit as much as you want, but what I said is still true because it's the very nature of counter picking. Losing too much? Just pick somebody who does better against your opponent by design. Picking this new character doesn't suddenly give you new insight or new levels of execution or better reading abilities. You're still the guy who lost a bunch of games and then had to run off to the 7-3. So no, no praise at all. #sorrynotsorry

And you're the guy who ended up losing. You can be a character loyalist and all and I can respect that, but don't cry and make excuses when you lose to a counterpick because you made the conscious decision to stick by a character who had said losing matchup. You may not have been outplayed, but you sure still lost.

I get why people hate counterpickers, don't get me wrong there. However, people play to win regardless of whether they get praise or not. Nothing wrong with that mentality at all.

 

[Professor Oak]

I counter pick myself to play mind games.






And to have an excuse for losing.

 

[SaltShaker]

When are we gonna start giving props to the players who win tournaments or beat very good players regardless of character usage.

Again, no one is disagreeing with this. No one is saying "gosh this guy sucks because he counter picks". If you win any tourney you get respect regardless. That isn't the issue or the point being made.

Another example, if two people are in Grand Finals, it is 2-2, in a 5-5 MU, and one of the players switches to a 7-3 or 8-2 MU advantage, and wins the game 3-2 what is the reaction from the loser? From the watchers? Is the reaction-

A) Wow he really outplayed that game, what a finish.

or

B) He probably would have lost if he didn't switch to that 7-3.

This is the issue. He has every right to make that switch and win the competition. But also should know that he will receive a certain type of reaction in said scenario(s). No one is going to give the same level of props to someone who swithed to advantage except maybe the winner himself and his friends.

 

[Juggs]

True for you but not for me, which is part of what I was getting at. The greatest teacher is loss. Avoiding loss by running to more favorable match-ups is not an avenue to improvement, then. Rather, that is the quick road that avoids the necessity of it.

This is true, I even have an article on TYM about losing. There's a difference, a very big difference between casuals and tournament matches. In tournament, for the majority of people, the goal is to win, and win as much as possible. This is where you take what you've learned, and apply it. You also learn a great deal in tournament matches. But you wouldn't purposely pick a losing match-up in tournament just to try and overcome it, in casuals you would. In casuals I would even argue that counterpicking is counterproductive. I can say so much more on this subject, but you get the gist.

One can lose and be remembered, and win and be forgotten. The worth of Glory may be subjective, but it exists regardless.

Everyone remembers the guy that won, and even if they don't, it's recorded. Ever heard the joke about 2nd place?

Knock knock. Who's there? 2nd place. 2nd place who? ... exactly.

 

[Xentex]

When are we gonna start giving props to the players who win tournaments or beat very good players regardless of character usage.
...
There are only champions and formidable opponents. Nothing more.

Amen.

If you're good enough to win a tournament using multiple characters I think that's testament to being skilled, not cheap.

Who's the better player, the world's best Kenshi who never wins a tournament, or the third best player of 5 different characters who wins regularly? The best argument to be made for the Kenshi player might be "he's got great raw talent, but chooses to handicap himself." The problem with that path is the Kenshi player always has an excuse. "I'm think I'm better than you, but my character stinks." If you were truly better you'd never find yourself the victim of a "bad matchup." A bad matchup just means you don't have the skills to counterpick the counterpick.

 

[xxE.Txx]

This is true, I even have an article on TYM about losing. There's a difference, a very big difference between casuals and tournament matches. In tournament, for the majority of people, the goal is to win, and win as much as possible. This is where you take what you've learned, and apply it. You also learn a great deal in tournament matches. But you wouldn't purposely pick a losing match-up in tournament just to try and overcome it, in casuals you would. In casuals I would even argue that counterpicking is counterproductive. I can say so much more on this subject, but you get the gist.



Everyone remembers the guy that won, and even if they don't, it's recorded. Ever heard the joke about 2nd place?

Knock knock. Who's there? 2nd place. 2nd place who? ... exactly.

Would you say this debate comes down to the motives of the person entering the tournament?
For example: Player A enters with the goal of getting into the money. While player B enters to test their match-up knowledge using a specific character.

 

[Perdition]

Counter picking in tournament: Fine. Counter picking all the time online: Annoying, sometimes.

 

[16 Bit]

When are we gonna start giving props to the players who win tournaments or beat very good players regardless of character usage.

Seriously, you rarely see these sort of special entitlements in other enormous community games like DotA or Melee where the competition is monstrous.

There are only champions and formidable opponents. Nothing more.

never, because we're not emotionless robots.

this mentality exists everywhere because it's natural. I do not follow Melee much but people get super hype and give mega props when a non-top tier places. This is the same reason sports teams get blown up when they have a huge budget and take advantage of it. the same reason KitasenjuDJ will get more props for qualifying for Topanga League than the player who ends up winning it.

 

[16 Bit]

Everyone remembers the guy that won, and even if they don't, it's recorded. Ever heard the joke about 2nd place?

Knock knock. Who's there? 2nd place. 2nd place who? ... exactly.

it's rarely that black and white.

there were Injustice players who never won a major that I think were better than major winners. I'm sure pretty much everyone thinks the same thing, if they're actually honest.

 

[Juggs]

it's rarely that black and white.

there were Injustice players who never won a major that I think were better than major winners. I'm sure pretty much everyone thinks the same thing, if they're actually honest.

True, I just had to use the opportunity to use that "joke". Heard it in some inspirational commercial, and remembered it for some reason.

 

[Juggs]

Would you say this debate comes down to the motives of the person entering the tournament?
For example: Player A enters with the goal of getting into the money. While player B enters to test their match-up knowledge using a specific character.

I mean sure, but the majority of people (in my opinion, at least) enter tournaments with the intention to do the best they can. I don't think the majority believes they can make top 8 or win, but I do believe that is the majorities goal. I could be wrong, I am wrong often, but in this regard I don't think I am.

 

[16 Bit]

the majority enter tournaments to do well, get props and play the way they like. this is obvious when you look at actual character selection.

everyone gets the badass play to win if you're not winning you don't matter chest thumping. a lot just don't care. I read those speeches and just think "yeah cool but seriously catwoman is awesome".

 

[Professor Oak]

Off topic, but how do I get my variation below my name? And is there an option for counter pick?

 

[JerzeyReign]

Off topic, but how do I get my variation below my name? And is there an option for counter pick?

I'd tell you but then I remembered those shitty Pokemon starter options you gave me.

 

[JesterSMX]

Unless you CHANGE your pick to Hawkgirl... AFTER I pick Nightwing, it's cool.

It all comes down to excuses for losing. In casuals I want tough matchups for the experience. If I lost because of not knowing something about a character or variation then I got outplayed. If I lost because your toolset negates my strengths, I pick my second character.

Played a ft10 against someone that picked EB, Lao, Tanya. I started with Shaolin and won games 8-10 with Imposter. I received the holy trinity of hate mail claiming... Doesn't know matchup, top tier, counterpick.

Learn something from every loss. Even if its nothing more than NRS can't write netcode for shit.

 

[RemainSolid]

Off topic, but how do I get my variation below my name? And is there an option for counter pick?

Click under your avatar and some magical shit happens. And you're from Memphis too, cool. : O

 

[Professor Oak]

I'd tell you but then I remembered those shitty Pokemon starter options you gave me.

If Charizard is shitty, I dont want to live on this planet anymore. You should be mad at Prof Elm. He gave you Bayleaf.

 

[Professor Oak]

Click under your avatar and some magical shit happens. And you're from Memphis too, cool. : O

I am! And Im starting to look into our local scene. Whats the haps?

 

[RyuuJin882]

@Professor Oak ??? Finally joined a real MK forum? I remember you from the wb forums. lol That place still dead?

 

[Professor Oak]

@Professor Oak ??? Finally joined a real MK forum? I remember you from the wb forums. lol That place still dead?

Haha. Yes. I tried to join ages ago, but my email confirmation never went through. I needed better resources in my quest to wreck my locals and start attending majors, so here I am. Lol. That place gets more "Omg Scorpion is broke, what do I do?" Than I cared to count.

 

[Error404]

so who fault is it for playing the 7-3 match up??? 7-3 will make it a little easier to deal with for who ever favor the mu is in. but that does not mean it takes less skill. you still have to play on point.

It absolutely means it takes less skill. If 7-3 MUs and 5-5 MUs took the same amount of skill to win , tier lists and MU charts wouldn't exist.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Again, no one is disagreeing with this. No one is saying "gosh this guy sucks because he counter picks". If you win any tourney you get respect regardless. That isn't the issue or the point being made.

Another example, if two people are in Grand Finals, it is 2-2, in a 5-5 MU, and one of the players switches to a 7-3 or 8-2 MU advantage, and wins the game 3-2 what is the reaction from the loser? From the watchers? Is the reaction-

A) Wow he really outplayed that game, what a finish.

or

B) He probably would have lost if he didn't switch to that 7-3.

This is the issue. He has every right to make that switch and win the competition. But also should know that he will receive a certain type of reaction in said scenario(s). No one is going to give the same level of props to someone who swithed to advantage except maybe the winner himself and his friends.

It is decided, we need to make a machine that can monitor the correct amount of props to give to a player after they win.

A props-o-meter.


Both sides of the argument are right in this thread.

 

[MrInsaynne]

Counterpicking is a strategy. Do what you feel is necessary to help you win.

I believe I read this in this thread somewhere from forever king: Its easy to stay loyal to a character that has 0-1 or 2 bad match ups. I 100% agree. As someone that has traveled around the country for multiple fighting games and have played various types of characters from great to bad, it would be extremely foolish on my part to know play a character with multiple bad match ups and not be prepared for it with another match up(s).

I loved this example at SCR of Snake Eyez vs Xiao Hai. First match was Zangief vs Sagat, Snake lost, went to evil ryu. Tied it to 1-1. Now they play the evil Ryu mirror, Snake Eyez is in the position where he NEEDS to win this 3rd game because if he loses and goes to gief, he will get counterpicked again by Sagat if it gets to game 5. Sure enough, that's exactly what happened. He lost the E Ryu mirror, went to gief, won, and was countered by Sagat once again.