Question - Special Forces Why does this variation seem underused?

[IrishMantis]

Yup. Also, depending on the latency, the cancels to the low kamikaze online are completely unreliable. Any slight lag spike and you get 12% vs 25-30% plus a drone re-summon, whereas playing demolition or CO is much easier in the execution department.

Watching the footage posted up there i see Scar dropping a lot of 111 cancel which i remember being really tricky trying offline lol

 

[DaZengie]

There are a good amount of SF video footage on page 3 of the Sonya Battle Footage thread:
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/sonya-blade-battle-footage-thread.49588/page-3

 

[Espio]

The variation is good, if I still mained Sonya it would be the only variation I used for her. The safeness, zoning, anti-pressure, anti-combo capabilities are just too huge to miss out on in my opinion. It also has the added perk of being much more fun than covert ops, just takes a bit of time for people to get used to the awkward cancel window on drone cancels/combos.

Great for Grandmaster Sub-zero and Kitana, two match ups that can be pretty trying as Covert. I'm sure there are plenty of other match ups where her utility is essential.

 

[IrishMantis]

The variation is good, if I still mained Sonya it would be the only variation I used for her. The safeness, zoning, anti-pressure, anti-combo capabilities are just too huge to miss out on in my opinion. It also has the added perk of being much more fun than covert ops, just takes a bit of time for people to get used to the awkward cancel window on drone cancels/combos.

Great for Grandmaster Sub-zero and Kitana, two match ups that can be pretty trying as Covert. I'm sure there are plenty of other match ups where her utility is essential.

Yeah man watching those matches it actually seems really hype to watch, never thought i say that about Sonya lol

I added a Poll too, since i asked the questions like a poll

 

[Jolt]

Why is cancel timing so tricky, seems strange when nothing else in the game has timing like this?

Because they don't want this variation to live. That's the only reasoning I can think of. I think it's a problem with input priority to an extent, maybe they don't want you to be able to block and do a drone special at the same time and the game isn't always the best at picking which you intended for.

I've had plenty of times online where I was full screen and threw out a homing missile...except homing missile doesn't come out, I either block or standing 2 despite knowing with pretty good certainty thatI pressed BOTH buttons

This variation is capable of some nice things.

Free drone call off of b14 or d4 on hit <---so that's a 50/50 to get your drone out. Against some characters, you'll have to call a homing missile immediately to cover you and break an incoming combo, but against others you can just block or backdash. Really depends on what you think the opponent will do

11 drone park run into 11 or 121 low kamikaze works midscreen (As a combo)
b332 drone park into 11 or 121 low kamikaze also works midscreen (As a combo)
Using the 112 or 2134 ender, you get a free drone call again. I like 112 personally as if they techroll, it takes LONGER for them to do anything offensive

The variation never has enough plus frames to get more than a poke, but it doesn't need them since Sonya's pokes are already hella fast. She never NEEDS to be more than +3.

Special Forces is way good for pressure AND mixup potential as the opponent has to respect her options. Also has a very strong frustration factor.

Poor execution compared to the other variations and shotgun cancelling if Sonya gets hit are the ONLY issues with Special Forces when compared to the other variations in my mind

 

[Tony at Home]

If shotgun wasn't as interruptible as it is it would be completely broken. Sonya just needs to condition the opponent to respect low drone and homing missile. Once they are waiting for that then she can use shotty pressure which is +lmfao on block

 

[IrishMantis]

Because they don't want this variation to live. That's the only reasoning I can think of. I think it's a problem with input priority to an extent, maybe they don't want you to be able to block and do a drone special at the same time and the game isn't always the best at picking which you intended for.

I've had plenty of times online where I was full screen and threw out a homing missile...except homing missile doesn't come out, I either block or standing 2 despite knowing with pretty good certainty thatI pressed BOTH buttons

This variation is capable of some nice things.

Free drone call off of b14 or d4 on hit <---so that's a 50/50 to get your drone out. Against some characters, you'll have to call a homing missile immediately to cover you and break an incoming combo, but against others you can just block or backdash. Really depends on what you think the opponent will do

11 drone park run into 11 or 121 low kamikaze works midscreen (As a combo)
b332 drone park into 11 or 121 low kamikaze also works midscreen (As a combo)
Using the 112 or 2134 ender, you get a free drone call again. I like 112 personally as if they techroll, it takes LONGER for them to do anything offensive

The variation never has enough plus frames to get more than a poke, but it doesn't need them since Sonya's pokes are already hella fast. She never NEEDS to be more than +3.

Special Forces is way good for pressure AND mixup potential as the opponent has to respect her options. Also has a very strong frustration factor.

Poor execution compared to the other variations and shotgun cancelling if Sonya gets hit are the ONLY issues with Special Forces when compared to the other variations in my mind

Yeah your prob right.

Im thinking a reason could be the R2+Face button for input, as the game its struggling to tell if your block or doing an input, maybe if they do what they did for Quan Chi and change it too L2 it may help execution

 

[Zoidberg747]

I think the main reason Sonya players stick with Demolition and Covert Ops is because they are more offensive based which is easier to play in MKX meta. Special Forces is more defensive in that you can disrupt combos and actually pretty effectively keep out your opponent and mess with your opponent. The thing is once you figure out the MU and prepare for the fact that you wont be able to completely combo her the MU becomes much harder for SF Sonya(Throws are your friend in this MU IMO). Special Forces requires the drone for any combo capability which makes her lose her defensive options.

On the other hand you have Covert Ops which is 50/50 into another 50/50(with a safe cancel option), or Demolition which has insane damage and good mixups as well.

Thats just my theory anyway, I got my ass handed to me by Mygod at Absolute Battle so it forced me to learnt the MU a bit better. She's good no matter what but worse than the other two variations I think.

 

[IrishMantis]

I think the main reason Sonya players stick with Demolition and Covert Ops is because they are more offensive based which is easier to play in MKX meta. Special Forces is more defensive in that you can disrupt combos and actually pretty effectively keep out your opponent and mess with your opponent. The thing is once you figure out the MU and prepare for the fact that you wont be able to completely combo her the MU becomes much harder for SF Sonya(Throws are your friend in this MU IMO). Special Forces requires the drone for any combo capability which makes her lose her defensive options.

On the other hand you have Covert Ops which is 50/50 into another 50/50(with a safe cancel option), or Demolition which has insane damage and good mixups as well.

Thats just my theory anyway, I got my ass handed to me by Mygod at Absolute Battle so it forced me to learnt the MU a bit better. She's good no matter what but worse than the other two variations I think.

Yeah actually i didn't really think about the fact she has no luancher without it, thats a good point, but at the same time she has alot of good strings for getting the drone outsafetly, but yeah i see your ponit, hitting them twice for 1 combo sounds strange.

I just cant help thinking when its out our you can do what you want, Divekick, then go again on block

 

[The_Tile]

Why is cancel timing so tricky, seems strange when nothing else in the game has timing like this?

It does, some of Cage's and Liu's cancels have different timing on hit and block. Cage's 113xxSKRC is especially tricky for this.

 

[IrishMantis]

It does, some of Cage's and Liu's cancels have different timing on hit and block. Cage's 113xxSKRC is especially tricky for this.

Maybe im just use to playing cage, but its no way like this in timing

 

[Jolt]

If shotgun wasn't as interruptible as it is it would be completely broken. Sonya just needs to condition the opponent to respect low drone and homing missile. Once they are waiting for that then she can use shotty pressure which is +lmfao on block

I'm a little new to the variation (played it around June/July and picked it back up a couple weeks ago). Could you direct me to this +lmfao shotgun pressure? I would definitely like to see how to properly apply pressure with it.

I was thinking of it in terms of I would like to use shotgun a an anti-air when I do a b14 drone call. Some people jump in, homing missile usually covers it but I'd like the shotgun knockdown.

I'll trust the knowledge that it would be broken since I clearly do not know as much. I just thought it was a strange inconsistency when it already has the least range of all drone attacks. Definitely not arguing, I admit defeat lol just wanted to explain my stance

 

[DaZengie]

I'm a little new to the variation (played it around June/July and picked it back up a couple weeks ago). Could you direct me to this +lmfao shotgun pressure? I would definitely like to see how to properly apply pressure with it.

I was thinking of it in terms of I would like to use shotgun a an anti-air when I do a b14 drone call. Some people jump in, homing missile usually covers it but I'd like the shotgun knockdown.

I'll trust the knowledge that it would be broken since I clearly do not know as much. I just thought it was a strange inconsistency when it already has the least range of all drone attacks. Definitely not arguing, I admit defeat lol just wanted to explain my stance

Just want to add that kamikaze drone on block is like +30...You can literally do it from full screen and run to just about their feet before the opponent can do anything.
In the corner, if they block low kamikaze drone, and you do b1, it's a jailed low overhead mix up. Strangely enough, the explosion knocks you back really far, but depending on spacing and timing, you can get b1 out before the knockback.

 

[RyuKazuya]

thats fn nice. I once met someone using this variation online and the pressure u can get out of this variation is purely insane.
Its pretty cool and not as braindead as covert ops

 

[Tony at Home]

I don't like saying "worse" or "better* in terms of Sonya variation. The character is optimal when all variations are used against their best matchups. If someone really "mains" Sonya they should learn all three. I think TYM should drop the idea of "variation mains" and just learn the entire character. If the variation takes care of even 1 bad matchup out of 28, then it's a variation worth learning.

To just some myths: SF is not toothless without drone.

Sonya SF gets decent damage off b33212~leg grab, so she always has some access to respectable damage without drone. 20% meterless is not bad.

Also, SF is not reliant on meter at all. She can build up meter when drone is active so she'll never be both without a drone and EX leg grab reversal.

Her damage isn't massive, but off a 2134 knockdown she has enough time to call a new drone, fire a homing missile, and start running at you by the time you are just getting up.

 

[IrishMantis]

I don't like saying "worse" or "better* in terms of Sonya variation. The character is optimal when all variations are used against their best matchups. If someone really "mains" Sonya they should learn all three. I think TYM should drop the idea of "variation mains" and just learn the entire character. If the variation takes care of even 1 bad matchup out of 28, then it's a variation worth learning.

To just some myths: SF is not toothless without drone.

Sonya SF gets decent damage off b33212~leg grab, so she always has some access to respectable damage without drone. 20% meterless is not bad.

Also, SF is not reliant on meter at all. She can build up meter when drone is active so she'll never be both without a drone and EX leg grab reversal.

Her damage isn't massive, but off a 2134 knockdown she has enough time to call a new drone, fire a homing missile, and start running at you by the time you are just getting up.

Dont take the topic too literal dude, its just the word "using" would of killed this thread off pretty easy imo

also thank you for Mythbusting

hang on ill go for a third and final attempt of relevant thread title.
apologies Mods

 

[Skedar70]

I think Special forces is ok but I don't think they are any MU where SF > Demo. CO probably yes they are a few where its better to use SF. Now The issue I have with SF is the timing for the drone attacks on block and on hit(sometimes you miss the input because the timing is weird and different for all the attacks and this may cause you a match). SF is harder execution than Demo and if there is no matches where SF > Demo why would I use SF? I use SF just for fun at times cause its super fun.

 

[Jolt]

I think Special forces is ok but I don't think they are any MU where SF > Demo. CO probably yes they are a few where its better to use SF. Now The issue I have with SF is the timing for the drone attacks on block and on hit(sometimes you miss the input because the timing is weird and different for all the attacks and this may cause you a match). SF is harder execution than Demo and if there is no matches where SF > Demo why would I use SF? I use SF just for fun at times cause its super fun.

You don't think that Special Forces has the leg up over Demolition in the Reptile matchup? It is far easier in my experience to get the drone out (and make good use of it ) than it is to reload grenades against Reptile

 

[Tinkerbell]

I made a status update on this yesterday but i am not satisfied yet on knowing why nobody is utilizing this variation to its highest potential.

Just a few mins in the lab and the things I am finding such as using the homing projectile for plus on block Dive kicks, b3 into the the OH missile for pressure, safe footsies, placing the drone behind you then moving to other side of the screen and using the the Drones projectiles to keep your opponents from moving and crazy mind games, crashing the drones for plus frames and corner launches. the list is endless.

But there must be a reason why it hasn't being used it yet. I fail to see how this is a bad variation and will take some convincing.,I guess the the other 2 variations standout in their own ways, 1 is easy mode with 50/50s into 50/50s and the other big dmg pay off and mind games, so a possibility may be its redundant in comparison to the other 2 but i'm not sold. i also notice canceling the drones into block string is a tricky timing which could throw people off

2 common possibilities I think are
1) No high level Tourney player has used this before so the mass assumes its useless or shit.
2) It seems like you need to dedicate A LOT of time into this variation to flesh out when you can just pick one of the other 2 variations much easier.
3) I'm wrong, and it is useless and shit

but in anyways i'm curious.
I dont play the char so my knowledge and bold
aint
statements are invalid.

Bold statement? What bold statement?
That this could potentially be her best Variation

Maybe too bold but i'm at best convinced this is a sleeper
so convince me im wrong TYM, lets have fun yo!

P.S coming from a Stunt Double main slow start up on Drones ain't gonna cut it

Edit: Heres some footage if anybody interested of some of its potential by the main man Scar

Most of the people seem to have a point that the drone timing is inconsistent and unreliable when playing online matches. It would be nice to see that as a voting option.

 

[Skedar70]

You don't think that Special Forces has the leg up over Demolition in the Reptile matchup? It is far easier in my experience to get the drone out (and make good use of it ) than it is to reload grenades against Reptile

Mmm maybe you are right its easier to get the drone out than it is to reload grenades. But another issue I have with reptile is that he is always in your face with those mixups and my sonya wakeup options are kind of low profiled or whiffed on reptile so I feel the need to use bake and wake which is only available in demo. Then comes his zoning which maybe are easier to handle with SF drone but you can still handle it with a well tossed grenade. I dislike the whole match up though.

 

[DaZengie]

Most of the people seem to have a point that the drone timing is inconsistent and unreliable when playing online matches. It would be nice to see that as a voting option.

I would vote that. Just to troll: Might as well add "Cuz I can't get 70+% x-ray combos in SF"

 

[Skedar70]

Most of the people seem to have a point that the drone timing is inconsistent and unreliable when playing online matches. It would be nice to see that as a voting option.

Not only online, offline is also a weird timing. You can't buffer the cancel into a drone command after any string. You have to wait until the last hit of the string and input the command. So if you miss time the attack doesn't come out and this sometimes leaves you vulnerable.

 

[Jolt]

Not only online, offline is also a weird timing. You can't buffer the cancel into a drone command after any string. You have to wait until the last hit of the string and input the command. So if you miss time the attack doesn't come out and this sometimes leaves you vulnerable.

Has anyone that plays SF tried Summoner Quan, and does he have these same issues? Only asking to know if maybe it's something with the block + attack inputs instead of stance + inputs. I imagine it's the same situation, but I've never tried and I'm heading to class now myself

 

[Youphemism]

I've always thought this to be her best variation tbh lol. Definitely underrepresented. Drone BLK+2 is one of the best space control tools in the game in my opinion. I think people don't play it because of how the drone works in combos, you can't really buffer it in and you have to just do it late in the combo instead, but to be honest when considering how good a variation/character is online shouldn't even really be considered. SF doesn't seem to do as much damage in general as the other two but I think that's fine considering the amazing space control and pressure tools she gets with Drone. Plus it comes out in 41 frames instead of 63 like Demo's -____________-

I think the main reason Sonya players stick with Demolition and Covert Ops is because they are more offensive based which is easier to play in MKX meta. Special Forces is more defensive in that you can disrupt combos and actually pretty effectively keep out your opponent and mess with your opponent. The thing is once you figure out the MU and prepare for the fact that you wont be able to completely combo her the MU becomes much harder for SF Sonya(Throws are your friend in this MU IMO). Special Forces requires the drone for any combo capability which makes her lose her defensive options.

On the other hand you have Covert Ops which is 50/50 into another 50/50(with a safe cancel option), or Demolition which has insane damage and good mixups as well.

Thats just my theory anyway, I got my ass handed to me by Mygod at Absolute Battle so it forced me to learnt the MU a bit better. She's good no matter what but worse than the other two variations I think.

Interesting, I actually think of Drone as an offensive tool rather than a defensive one since it allows her to create openings, slow the opponent down and apply pressure when she gets up close. But it being defensive since her drone tools are effectively 1 frame startup and can be used to interrupt combos is a very good point.

I feel one of the only things Covert Ops has over the other two is a lack of reliance on specific moves. She has access to her mixups and combos and damage at all times in CO, whereas you constantly need to keep your resources topped up in SF and Demo to get the most out of it and be a real threat.

To just some myths: SF is not toothless without drone.

Sonya SF gets decent damage off b33212~leg grab, so she always has some access to respectable damage without drone. 20% meterless is not bad.

Also, SF is not reliant on meter at all. She can build up meter when drone is active so she'll never be both without a drone and EX leg grab reversal.

Her damage isn't massive, but off a 2134 knockdown she has enough time to call a new drone, fire a homing missile, and start running at you by the time you are just getting up.

Although off of B33212 isn't the ideal situation to use the +43 hit advantage to call a safe drone? B33212~grab is best if your drone has literally just ran out and you're waiting on the timer resetting though

 

[Vigilante24]

I actually just played a special forces sonya last night with ronin takeda (thats a mu you will never see lol). The whole time I was playing, I just kept saying how dumb this character is even though I was winning. That Drone is a problem. Lucky for me I have a reflect so its funny watching Sonya get hit by her own tracking beam.