Question - Kano WHAT KIND OF CHANGES WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE TO KANO IN KP2

[bdizzle2700]

Jupe? You mean Jupiter?

Didn't he use Jax at NEC?

What major was won only with Cutthroat and Cyber?

Not Jupiter. Just jupe. And won? I dont think any. There was one where royal made top 8. But i think it was cyber and like shinnok. I think it was in a regional

 

[Rude]

Not Jupiter. Just jupe. And won? I dont think any. There was one where royal made top 8. But i think it was cyber and like shinnok. I think it was in a regional

He said this Jupe won a major. I'm legitimately curious as to what he meant.

 

[bdizzle2700]

He said this Jupe won a major. I'm legitimately curious as to what he meant.

Jupe might be European

 

[Youphemism]

Jupe? You mean Jupiter?

Didn't he use Jax at NEC?

What major was won only with Cutthroat and Cyber?

No, Jupe. He's a Finnish sole Kano main. He won a major in Austria recently, I forget the name of it. I'll look it up just now.

Edit: It's called Friday Xmas Fights.

 

[Rude]

I don't know that a Finnish major is the best talking point we could be using to determine his tournament viability.

If the Finnish MK Community feels blown up by this, I guess I'll have to hold that. I'm sure they have talent

*Austrian. My bad.

 

[Rude]

Racist.

Extremely.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Man this is interesting. I'm under the impression that cutthroat Kano is very very good right now. I've only been using him for a couple weeks and I feel his game revolves around a few serious things.

1) safe reversal in ex upball or unsafe combo starter in ex ball.
2) safe 50/50 but you don't have to go all or nothing. Bide your time and hit confirm into BIG damage. Number 1 allows you to do this.
3) projectiles to bait jumps/movement so you can punish.

I can always get out of pressure with ex up ball. No on locks down Kano for too long. People who try to bait it by blocking or back dashing automatically let you out and giving you your turn.

In footsies, all he really needs is knifes, d4 and air ball. Air ball priority is godlike. When Kano jumps, people are intimidated by that knockdown and block. His d4 and knifes set up the rest.

Kano is good...not a zoner, not a rush down monster, but rather a solid character with solid tools who can compete. His toolset keeps him from losing match ups bad. I bet his worst MU is a 4-6 but he goes 5-5 or better against most of the cast. He literally stops characters from playing their game to reset the neutral. Kano is awesome.

I have been taking my time picking a main but this post sums up why I like Kano. My other mains like Kang and sun God lack the reversal / defensive options that Kano has. You can tell me that Kang and sun God are better but they are NOT better in this specific area which is one of my weaknesses as a player.

 

[Youphemism]

I personally don't even use ex up ball, makes no difference for me. Why would I spend a bar to either continue being at disadvantage on block or put the opponent where I least want them on hit? If I'm using a move with armour expecting to beat out my opponents option then I may as well just go for ex ball cancel into a full conversion and get decent damage if I'm right. If I'm wrong then so be it. This is another reason I think ex buff shouldn't have DoT, I would use it as a flash parry instead of having to rely on either ex up ball or ex ball cancel. One is safe but leads to nothing and puts the opponent where I least want them, the other gives me great damage but is unsafe. Ex buff without DoT would be best option hands down because it leads to a full combo AND is safe. In its current state Cutthroat's decent but DoT on ex buff still holds him back a bit because you're spending a bar right now to still take the DoT, and using meterless buff and using your meter on ex db1 is actually more optimal damage wise anyway.

Sun God has a parry that buffs his damage meterlessly without taking health and leads to a full combo, as well as ex command grab which ALSO buffs his damage and gives him the opportunity to get health back or meter (eventually anyway). Sun God, compared to Cutthroat, only doesn't have 50/50s and is a bit more unsafe really.

 

[SaltShaker]

I personally don't even use ex up ball, makes no difference for me. Why would I spend a bar to either continue being at disadvantage on block or put the opponent where I least want them on hit? If I'm using a move with armour expecting to beat out my opponents option then I may as well just go for ex ball cancel into a full conversion and get decent damage if I'm right. If I'm wrong then so be it. This is another reason I think ex buff shouldn't have DoT, I would use it as a flash parry instead of having to rely on either ex up ball or ex ball cancel. One is safe but leads to nothing and puts the opponent where I least want them, the other gives me great damage but is unsafe. Ex buff without DoT would be best option hands down because it leads to a full combo AND is safe. In its current state Cutthroat's decent but DoT on ex buff still holds him back a bit because you're spending a bar right now to still take the DoT, and using meterless buff and using your meter on ex db1 is actually more optimal damage wise anyway.

Sun God has a parry that buffs his damage meterlessly without taking health and leads to a full combo, as well as ex command grab which ALSO buffs his damage and gives him the opportunity to get health back or meter (eventually anyway). Sun God, compared to Cutthroat, only doesn't have 50/50s and is a bit more unsafe really.

You're right about EX Buff. Right before I stopped playing Kano I would do either a string into EX Knives on block, or EX DB1 combos. Losing the health or turning it off but losing the oki just wasn't worth a few extra %.

 

[gibster13]

Man this is interesting. I'm under the impression that cutthroat Kano is very very good right now. I've only been using him for a couple weeks and I feel his game revolves around a few serious things.

1) safe reversal in ex upball or unsafe combo starter in ex ball.
2) safe 50/50 but you don't have to go all or nothing. Bide your time and hit confirm into BIG damage. Number 1 allows you to do this.
3) projectiles to bait jumps/movement so you can punish.

I can always get out of pressure with ex up ball. No on locks down Kano for too long. People who try to bait it by blocking or back dashing automatically let you out and giving you your turn.

In footsies, all he really needs is knifes, d4 and air ball. Air ball priority is godlike. When Kano jumps, people are intimidated by that knockdown and block. His d4 and knifes set up the rest.

Kano is good...not a zoner, not a rush down monster, but rather a solid character with solid tools who can compete. His toolset keeps him from losing match ups bad. I bet his worst MU is a 4-6 but he goes 5-5 or better against most of the cast. He literally stops characters from playing their game to reset the neutral. Kano is awesome.

I have been taking my time picking a main but this post sums up why I like Kano. My other mains like Kang and sun God lack the reversal / defensive options that Kano has. You can tell me that Kang and sun God are better but they are NOT better in this specific area which is one of my weaknesses as a player.

Like me you also seem to be on the same page that most kano players are huge down players (you know who you are). I really think that kano is a monster and your points back this up. Me and gabstandard often discuss the fact that a character is only as good as the player using them. This is the harsh reality that is fighting games. Im not saying those who want buffs are shit haha.

On the other hand I do feel that kano does in fact need fixes
1)Cutthroat to lose the DoT on exbuff
2)Cybernetic knives to do 6%
Choose where to place opponent on laser restand
Less damage scaling of laser and exgrenade launcher
Straight laser (because y not)

I think @SaltShaker covered a lot of points well

 

[MsMiharo]

I think me and @Youphemism More or less agree on the footsie part and I won't be by a computer for a few days so I cba to do a full answer.

Cutthroat is a beast in theory and pretty good in practice. As is Kano. I think everyone agrees he only needs minor tweaks to be a strong competitor (save perhaps commando who could use a bit more to make him worth using) but as I've said before, the only thing I REALLY want is for everything to work: knives, 1(1), 2, choke, etc.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I personally don't even use ex up ball, makes no difference for me. Why would I spend a bar to either continue being at disadvantage on block or put the opponent where I least want them on hit? If I'm using a move with armour expecting to beat out my opponents option then I may as well just go for ex ball cancel into a full conversion and get decent damage if I'm right. If I'm wrong then so be it. This is another reason I think ex buff shouldn't have DoT, I would use it as a flash parry instead of having to rely on either ex up ball or ex ball cancel. One is safe but leads to nothing and puts the opponent where I least want them, the other gives me great damage but is unsafe. Ex buff without DoT would be best option hands down because it leads to a full combo AND is safe. In its current state Cutthroat's decent but DoT on ex buff still holds him back a bit because you're spending a bar right now to still take the DoT, and using meterless buff and using your meter on ex db1 is actually more optimal damage wise anyway.

Sun God has a parry that buffs his damage meterlessly without taking health and leads to a full combo, as well as ex command grab which ALSO buffs his damage and gives him the opportunity to get health back or meter (eventually anyway). Sun God, compared to Cutthroat, only doesn't have 50/50s and is a bit more unsafe really.

Why is up ball on hit putting the opponent in a bad place. What's wrong with where they land?

 

[RyuuJin882]

Why is up ball on hit putting the opponent in a bad place. What's wrong with where they land?

Ex up ball is better. Safer on block. You don't have to respect most follow ups from your opponent because it leaves you at perfect distance to check with a d4 and then you have plus frames again.

Ex regular ball on wakeup is a guess and a risk.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Ex up ball is better. Safer on block. You don't have to respect most follow ups from your opponent because it leaves you at perfect distance to check with a d4 and then you have plus frames again.

Ex regular ball on wakeup is a guess and a risk.

I know. I was asking youphamism. He said ex up ball is a waste and leaves the opponent not where he wants them.

 

[Youphemism]

Why is up ball on hit putting the opponent in a bad place. What's wrong with where they land?

They're full screen at that point. That's fine for Cybernetic but not for Cutthroat or Commando. You want the opponent in front of you so you can mix them up/apply some sort of pressure (despite its mediocrity), especially considering the range on Cutthroat's overhead.

I know. I was asking youphamism. He said ex up ball is a waste and leaves the opponent not where he wants them.

Well, I didn't say it was a waste, I said that it doesn't make a difference for me. I just personally don't find it optimal for Cutthroat (or Commando) but then again I don't even use it in Cybernetic lol.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

They're full screen at that point. That's fine for Cybernetic but not for Cutthroat or Commando. You want the opponent in front of you so you can mix them up/apply some sort of pressure (despite its mediocrity), especially considering the range on Cutthroat's overhead.

Well, I didn't say it was a waste, I said that it doesn't make a difference for me. I just personally don't find it optimal for Cutthroat (or Commando) but then again I don't even use it in Cybernetic lol.

I want to play footsies. That's why I use it. It's also safe no matter what so if I make a bad read, all is forgiven.

Kano footsies, knifes for meter build, are what I want and then using those things to bait movement. If I can play footsies with Cassie and kotal, I can play footsies with the whole cast. Ex upball allows him to do that. It's by far his BEST tool across all three variations.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

@SaltShaker

I kinda agree with phosferrax about CT and his stance on ex buff. It's primary use is to hit confirm into big damage. On block you really shouldn't use it often. I'll often go for the kill and get that 2 bar 50% or 1 bar 43% mid screen. 60% in the corner.

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker

I kinda agree with phosferrax about CT and his stance on ex buff. It's primary use is to hit confirm into big damage. On block you really shouldn't use it often. I'll often go for the kill and get that 2 bar 50% or 1 bar 43% mid screen. 60% in the corner.

Yup that's pretty much where it's at. I agree too. I'm just more upset that it wasn't going to be that way, but they changed their mind and pulled the plug in the last second.

I mainly use it in the corner for obvious reasons, when I have a good life lead, or if the combo will finish them and they can't break. That's pretty much the main ways to use it now.

For on block +frames I almost always use EX Knives. The Scorpion whiff of Death sucks, but the +9 off of any string is too good for Cutt.

 

[Youphemism]

I want to play footsies. That's why I use it. It's also safe no matter what so if I make a bad read, all is forgiven.

I don't get what you mean by the highlighted part. And yeah it's safe but if it's blocked you've just spent a bar to be in what's actually a slightly more disadvantageous position you were in before, and on hit it doesn't really reward you much. Even then if you whiff it/the opponent backdashes it to make it whiff you'll get punished whereas with ex ball cancel you can cancel it on whiff and be safe. I just don't think the resource spent is worth the reward is all. Maybe if it were a little plus on block I'd be more inclined to use it, but as for the moment I personally feel there are better uses of meter.

It's by far his BEST tool across all three variations.

I HIGHLY disagree with this. Kanos best tool across all three variations in my opinion are his ranged normals like F4 and D4. He may not have the best footsies/range in the game but his are what allow him to compete with top tiers in neutral and destroy others with lesser range, as well as his almost complete safety on his normals/strings. The midscreen game is the most important if not one of the most important, at least in my opinion. I can understand why ex up ball might seem really good and I completely respect your opinion and how you feel about the move but I just personally, as someone who's maybe looking too much into the maths of it lol, don't feel it's worth using more than something like ex straight ball cancel.

 

[N00B]

9 frame mid b1 from cybernetic and commando for cut throat, but in cutthroat its would be b2 mid), better hitbox on b1 overhead) in cut throat and not losing health when he get damage buff. I dont know much about cybernetic and commando, but they definetelly needs buffs. Oh yea and removing that ridicilous ugly ass launcher in commando lol.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Yup that's pretty much where it's at. I agree too. I'm just more upset that it wasn't going to be that way, but they changed their mind and pulled the plug in the last second.

I mainly use it in the corner for obvious reasons, when I have a good life lead, or if the combo will finish them and they can't break. That's pretty much the main ways to use it now.

For on block +frames I almost always use EX Knives. The Scorpion whiff of Death sucks, but the +9 off of any string is too good for Cutt.

Yea ex knives all day

I don't get what you mean by the highlighted part. And yeah it's safe but if it's blocked you've just spent a bar to be in what's actually a slightly more disadvantageous position you were in before, and on hit it doesn't really reward you much. Even then if you whiff it/the opponent backdashes it to make it whiff you'll get punished whereas with ex ball cancel you can cancel it on whiff and be safe. I just don't think the resource spent is worth the reward is all. Maybe if it were a little plus on block I'd be more inclined to use it, but as for the moment I personally feel there are better uses of meter.

I HIGHLY disagree with this. Kanos best tool across all three variations in my opinion are his ranged normals like F4 and D4. He may not have the best footsies/range in the game but his are what allow him to compete with top tiers in neutral and destroy others with lesser range, as well as his almost complete safety on his normals/strings. The midscreen game is the most important if not one of the most important, at least in my opinion. I can understand why ex up ball might seem really good and I completely respect your opinion and how you feel about the move but I just personally, as someone who's maybe looking too much into the maths of it lol, don't feel it's worth using more than something like ex straight ball cancel.

The trade off makes sense. Ex upball is safe with push back and knocks the opponent full screen.

Ex straight ball is unsafe on block but grants larger reward on hit.

I use them both often but ex upball is that safe GET OFF ME move that so many characters wish they had.

In my eyes, Kano thrives in the neutral where he has the threat of knives, d4, f2, air ball and f4. What does Kano do to get that back? Ex upball is his fail safe way to get that back. Ex straight ball has its uses but it's more of a high risk high reward situation.

Ex up ball has its risks but in the range where both moves would hit, ex up ball is the safer of the two and allows him to reset the neutral. That is a unique tool in MKX and no one else in the game has it. That's why it's his best tool.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

That said...to not use it drastically limits your game when the opponent starts baiting your armor reversals.

 

[Youphemism]

The trade off makes sense. Ex upball is safe with push back and knocks the opponent full screen.

Ex straight ball is unsafe on block but grants larger reward on hit.

I use them both often but ex upball is that safe GET OFF ME move that so many characters wish they had.

In my eyes, Kano thrives in the neutral where he has the threat of knives, d4, f2, air ball and f4. What does Kano do to get that back? Ex upball is his fail safe way to get that back. Ex straight ball has its uses but it's more of a high risk high reward situation.

Ex up ball has its risks but in the range where both moves would hit, ex up ball is the safer of the two and allows him to reset the neutral. That is a unique tool in MKX and no one else in the game has it. That's why it's his best tool.

Hmm I mean spending a bar to be safe is one thing, but I think how safe the move becomes makes a difference. Would you rather spend a bar and be -5 or just get up and be neutral? I mean people aren't going to see you didn't wake up before you throw out a poke or something. Them being knocked full screen benefits Cyber the most in my opinion, Cutthroat wants to be half screen or closer and Commando wants to be slightly closer than that.

Yeah, the risk reward is balanced for that move. 35+% against your opponents damage, your choice of positioning vs their choice of positioning. Up Ball doesn't give you an option to choose where you want to be or where you want them to be. I wouldn't say it's even a get off me move because they're still next to you lol.

I agree, his design puts him best in neutral, but I think to get that back he should be putting them midscreen and up ball leaves them either close or far. To get that back he uses his good footsie tools like D4/F4/etc since they allow him to create/keep the space he wants. I feel like Cutthroat specifically is a little weird because they gave rushdown tools to a footsie/midscreen character and I think that's why many don't pick him up.

In the end this is all actually good, this discussion, despite disagreements. It shows how versatile the character is because of the different ways we play him and the moves we prefer or think are better to use. I think this just shows he doesn't have many bad moves lol. I've still to watch your sets that you posted but I look forward to it, might see some stuff I could pick up myself

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

As per the TYM trend for non top tier characters, our beloved Kano who is currently listed only one tier above stankin, what would we like to see for him to rise up the ranks? Or at least become relevant in competitive play again. Any and all input welcome.


@Youphemism has a suggestion list. Here it is-

Kano:

General-

-Standing 1 changed from 8 frames to 7
-All whiffing issues fixed (like standing 2, which is an important normal, and non-Cybernetic knives which can whiff on crouch BLOCKING characters such as Scorpion)
-Hit and block reaction changed on F4 so that several moves will not whiff after it, either that or increase the range of said moves that can whiff when cancelled from F4 (like DB1 in Cybernetic).
-Whiff recovery from mb air ball halved.
-5 more frames of hitstun from ex ball cancel (this will make Commando bnbs easier to execute and allow Commando to tap in to a slightly higher damage output)
-Up Ball issues fixed (ie getting beat out by a lot of normals, variable startup with anywhere between 6 and 9(!) frames)

Cutthroat-

-Cutthroat - Ex buff's DoT effect removed

Cybernetic-

-Cybernetic - 2% damage increase to DF2 (and therefore 0.5% chip damage) increase to allow him to compete in zoning wars and actually have zoning worth worrying about
-Cybernetic - Slightly decreased damage scaling on 2+4MB launcher to allow him to have average combo damage and so his variation-specific combo extender isn't made redundant by his universal combo extender (ex ball cancel) since it currently does around the same damage
-Cybernetic - You can now choose where you'd like to place the opponent when doing Kano's 1+3 ender, 1+3B places them near you, 1+3F places them 3/4 screen. In its current state it leaves the opponent in an awkward position where nothing Kano has that's guaranteed reaches and where anything that does reach isn't guaranteed.
-Cybernetic - Slightly increased block advantage on ex knives (from +5 to +8)
-Cybernetic - MB Up Laser hit reaction changed/recovery reduced to allow for more consistent conversions

-Commando - Slightly decrease the damage scaling on 321+3MB so that the move isn't made redundant by ex ball cancel combos as they currently do more damage
-Commando - New tick throws implemented, either B1, F4, B3 or all of them (note: You might think I'm crazy but look at all the other grapplers and try telling me that'd be broken in comparison somehow)
-Commando - Parry inconsistencies fixed (ie being able to parry lows high but not low, vice versa)

@MsMiharo also adds-

-give command grabs more priority and make ex knives (commando/ct) function properly ie the mid is a true mid, doesn't whiff in the corner etc.

Quoting these two because I strongly agree with most of it and not sure what else I would add. Nothing too powerful or game breaking, but would go a long way towards giving the character a hand.

Hold up, hold up, did you say in cybernetic zoning worth worrying about, his zoning is scary, he has ex knives which are plus 5 and do good chip, they are fast af, they have good hit advantage, kano has some of the the best anti airs in the game, he has good damage, he has amazing mids, great movement speed, the best backdash in the game, the best uppercut in the game, a 6 frame up kano ball. Also when you say the restand thing if you chose its position hed be retarded, they would have to guess if your gonna do a grab, or pressure so his damage woould be insane, if you mad his knives plus 8, he would have jailing strings, and his zoning would be broke, if his up laser which can give you up to 30 percent as an anti air and has decent recovery, and made it better lol. Cybernetic is fine, as kano being one of my mains, i dont feel like this list for cybernetic was thought out well, as kano is solid and has basically everything but a 50,50,. Kano also needs thinking and mindgames doing this would make him fucking retarded.

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

It would be nice if Cybernetic and Commando had some sort of decent overhead options. At this point you really can't argue that a character doesn't need a 50/50 unless they have some insane frame trap (like Liu Kang).

I also always wanted his Up Laser to work more like Jacqui's Up Rocket. If he could use it to pressure and get some frame advantage, that would be awesome.

His ball attacks should lead to something. He currently suffers the same issue he faced in MK9, in that his risk/reward is all out of whack. Anytime he uses a ball attack he either gets a tiny bit of damage or full-combo punished.

If kano had an overhead in cybernetic he would be the best charachter in the game, he is really solid now, with great anti airs, spacing, and damage output, as well as fantastic normal's.