What Does MKX Benefit From Having A Block Button?

[Juggs]

So if ambiguous cross-ups are scrubby and dumb, and its essentially JUST a 50/50, then all 50/50s are dumb, right? Even ones you get to do off of safe jumps such as Scorpion after a tele hits in MK9, etc, etc.

They're apart of fighting games. Adapt.

Technically speaking, yes, all 50/50s are dumb. Any mechanic in a competitive game that rewards chance instead of skill is dumb to me, I despise having to rock paper scissors in order to not lose. But ambiguous cross-ups are worse because it's a straight up guess, where even the opponent often doesn't know which side they'll land on/hit. I don't have a problem with regular 50/50s, even though they're also dumb. Because at least there's some kind of evidence to help you make the right decision, and there's layers of yomi involved and mind games. None of that exists in holding up and praying they hold back the wrong way.

 

[Rude]

Technically speaking, yes, all 50/50s are dumb. Any mechanic in a competitive game that rewards chance instead of skill is dumb to me, I despise having to rock paper scissors in order to not lose. But ambiguous cross-ups are worse because it's a straight up guess, where even the opponent often doesn't know which side they'll land on/hit. I don't have a problem with regular 50/50s, even though they're also dumb. Because at least there's some kind of evidence to help you make the right decision, and there's layers of yomi involved and mind games. None of that exists in holding up and praying they hold back the wrong way.

If it's a true 50/50, there is no yomi. It's a guess. That's it. You could say, "he may overhead last time, so I think this time he'll go low." You're still guessing. You're making arbitrary quantifications to justify a bad attitude toward a basic fighting game mechanic.

 

[RTM2004]

The 50/50's on Injustice if blocked were really too safe without consequence and even blocked correctly, still safe.

I wonder how character's 50/50 would be affected if guessing right leave them at huge punishment. Think of Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Killer Frost, Catwoman, The Flash, Zatanna what if those vortex attempts were unsafe if opponent blocked correctly?

MK9 didn't really have that kind of magnitude of 50/50s. Even you can break free with two meter bars or even fuzzy from Scorpion, Quan Chi, Johnny Cage, Sonya, Kenshi, Kabal mind games. Injustice only gave you one clash in your second health bar and if you get caught by Batgirl vortex afterwards from clashing then you are put back into the blender of death, bye bye!

MK is the block button, why is the argument of people here removing the block button for B2B even a discussion?
It wouldn't be MK, it's a spinoff!

 

[WakeUp DP]

Please go play variety of fighting games so I can take you seriously. Until then I'm just going to ignore your babbling.

Lol how typical... A lot of us play dif fighters and still find ambiguous cross ups scrubby. Its all luck and not skill.

I player SF4, KOF, tried mavel didnt like it and I currently play KI3!

KI3 has scrubby tactics too like spinal up skull teleport etc.

 

[RTM2004]

You can neutral duck throws in MK whereas you had to jump them in injumpstice.

You main Harley Quinn and you need to jump 2 more and win most air to airs because her AA is garbage.

 

[That__John__Guy]

It seems to me that the OP completely shifted the burden from the outset without real justification.

A fighting game should have realistic, intuitive controls. A human can stand with their feet planted, raise their arms to guard their face and torso, and not move backwards. A human can walk backwards without raising their arms to shield their upper body. Unless one lives among weird, uncoordinated people, the fact of the matter is that realistically the bio-mechanic action of blocking and the bio-mechanic action of moving backwards can be done completely separate from each other.

Yeah, I know we are talking about games where people shoot fireballs and levitate and all that, but still, even in a game with fantastical moves, who wouldn't want the fundamental controls to correspond intuitively to human motor function? Walking backwards. Blocking. These are pretty core actions in a fight. If we watch a kickboxing match they punch, they kick, they block, and they move around.

Thus, it seems the real question is: "why the firetruck would someone designing a game intentionally link the backwards motion to blocking?" Not every game does this. It isn't like there aren't enough buttons. Console controllers have plenty of buttons. Really, it seems like if we were designing a game from scratch, no prior knowledge of other video games, just trying to make a cool fighting game, the intuitive sense would be to have different controls for the raise-my-arms-up action versus the move-my-legs-back action. If not only because different limbs are involved.

Since blocking is a fundamental part of fighting and something a person can do quite independently of moving backwards, it really seems the onus for justification would fall upon those who would maintain that there shouldn't be the natural separation. Those who suggest a dedicated blocking button shouldn't exist really bear the burden, IMHO.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Absolutely. But this is a topic here on TYM.

Why everyone still replying this guy? He is just a Scrub who loves back to block and is no different from the other scrubs we had past year asking for MKX to be back to block because all they want is to play MKX with SF4 meta.

 

[Shark Tank]

These defensive mechanics are tearing us apart

 

[Barrogh]

Lol how typical... A lot of us play dif fighters and still find ambiguous cross ups scrubby. Its all luck and not skill.

Technically, setting up particular situation is still a skill though. Maybe not so much if you're getting it for free with every successful offense, but I get a vibe that a lot of subjectivity is involved when people start throwing word "skill" around anyway.

 

[Eddy Wang]

When i do an ambigous crossup with Ibuki, i don't even know which side she will land, so neither does my opponent, so i take advantage of it and do a empty jump into low, which surely will going to hit because he is worried trying to figure out if the jump overhead will hit left or right.

 

[Rude]

Why do you and Anabolichris keep using this talking point? If this was a legitimate line of reasoning, infinites would be accepted and sought after, afterall, it's YOUR fault that YOU got hit by it. Gtfo with that. You can justify the bullshit however you want, it doesn't make it any less bullshit. Getting a knockdown isn't something hard to do, it happens a lot and even the best get hit by them constantly.

I really can't wait to see you guys never get knocked down, you must be godlike.

I just wanted to unpack this, real quick.

You see, I don't deny that I get knocked down. Of course I do. I fall into ambiguous cross-up set-ups all the time.

The difference isn't, "I'm so gdlike i just deal with it."

The difference is, "This is happening and I accept it for what it is."

To summarize: I don't cry about the ambiguous 50/50 when it happens. You, apparently, do. My problem was your insinuation that the ambiguous cross-up is somehow "unfair," when it isn't.

 

[Juggs]

I just wanted to unpack this, real quick.

You see, I don't deny that I get knocked down. Of course I do. I fall into ambiguous cross-up set-ups all the time.

The difference isn't, "I'm so gdlike i just deal with it."

The difference is, "This is happening and I accept it for what it is."

To summarize: I don't cry about the ambiguous 50/50 when it happens. You, apparently, do. My problem was your insinuation that the ambiguous cross-up is somehow "unfair," when it isn't.

Neither do I. I never insinuated something wasn't "fair". I don't complain about them when they happen, because that's not what a high level player does. But if you're mad that I'm calling a spade a spade, that's on you, not me.

 

[Rude]

Neither do I. I never insinuated something wasn't "fair". I don't complain about them when they happen, because that's not what a high level player does. But if you're mad that I'm calling a spade a spade, that's on you, not me.

You literally called them braindead. That's the definition of complaining. You're not very good at arguing, are you? You're not calling a spade a spade, you're tearing and calling names toward a mechanic you can't handle.

 

[Juggs]

You literally called them braindead. That's the definition of complaining. You're not very good at arguing, are you? You're not calling a spade a spade, you're tearing and calling names toward a mechanic you can't handle.

Re read what I said, you're not very good at reading, are you? You said you don't cry about ambiguous cross-ups when they happen, I said neither do I. Like I said, me calling them braindead was in response to the benefit of back to block. Unless you believe I was playing while typing, which would be pretty impressive.

And who says I can't handle it? Realizing an aspect of a game is dumb, calling it dumb, then defending that position does not equal "tearing about a mechanic you can't handle". People who argue with me usually resort to ad hominems at some point, once that happens, I know I've won and no longer need the last word. GG no re, have nice day.

 

[IceNinja]

I'm actually very curious as to why Boon and Company chose to implement a block button. I wonder what their philosophy behind it was.

You should watch this series @Johnny San

If i remember correctly there is an interview of John Tobias where he says they went with a block button so that you could always move your character backwards. It also has a lot of good information about the history of MK of course. With all the MK hype I'm about to watch it again now.

Edit: Ok so I just watched the whole thing and I guess I remembered incorrectly lol sorry, could have sworn I saw that in this but it's still a great series either way. Now I have no idea where I saw him say that.

 

[TONY-T]

The thread title is wrong. It should read.......

"What Does MKX Benefit From "Not" Having A Block Button"

The answer is nothing.

 

[Rude]

Re read what I said, you're not very good at reading, are you? You said you don't cry about ambiguous cross-ups when they happen, I said neither do I. Like I said, me calling them braindead was in response to the benefit of back to block. Unless you believe I was playing while typing, which would be pretty impressive.

And who says I can't handle it? Realizing an aspect of a game is dumb, calling it dumb, then defending that position does not equal "tearing about a mechanic you can't handle". People who argue with me usually resort to ad hominems at some point, once that happens, I know I've won and no longer need the last word. GG no re, have nice day.

As usual, when Juggs has been called out on his poor talking points, he goes, "i'm done with this" and exits thread. Typical. I'm sorry, but calling something dumb and calling it braindead is literally complaining. Tearing. Which is what you did. I'm sorry that you can't see that, or that you don't understand the meaning of words. One of the two.

You're taking the, "complain about them when they happen," to its most literal interpretation to suit your weak, shoddy argument. You've done nothing but complain about them. "Braindead." "Dumb." "Lacks skill" is all just complaining.

Seriously. Did you get hit in the head or something to argue this poorly?

 

[haketh]

If you think most Ambiguous crossups are just the person on offense just doing them & not knowing if they'll even crossup or not I question how much you really know about games with back to block.

Can we ban threads like this please, it just brings nothing but trouble & stupidity from people who don't understand games.

 

[Rude]

If you think most Ambiguous crossups are just the person on offense just doing them & not knowing if they'll even crossup or not I question how much you really know about games with back to block.

Can we ban threads like this please, it just brings nothing but trouble & stupidity from people who don't understand games.

Yeah, I was kind of questioning that talking point, too. I mean, I'm sure it can happen BUUUUUUTTT...

I'd imagine an ambiguous cross-up that the offensive player has no idea which side it will land would be AWFULLY hard to hit-confirm.

But that's more theory talk and I can't 100% say that's true.

 

[haketh]

Yeah, I was kind of questioning that talking point, too. I mean, I'm sure it can happen BUUUUUUTTT...

I'd imagine an ambiguous cross-up that the offensive player has no idea which side it will land would be AWFULLY hard to hit-confirm.

But that's more theory talk and I can't 100% say that's true.

Only ones I can really think of are the Yuri Crossups that stay on the same side but the character turns around, it's a pretty rare occurrence and doesn't have much to do with anything, you just block it like a crossup but they just stay on the same side.

 

[Swindle]

Well, in my post, I said that mechanics have some form of benefit to gameplay. In the case of back-to-block, your introducing mechanics like cross-ups. Cross-ups introduce a game mechanic into the system. That's how it benefits the game.

Of course, speaking of "benefits" is subjective but hopefully you get my meaning.

I've never understood why most 2D games are back-to-block, and why there aren't very many 2D games with block buttons. Block buttons make more sense within the "reality" of a game. Blocking is an action, like attacking or parrying. Blocking is more like attacking than moving. It often involves the character holding up their hands, or some kind of shield, and they are always stationary. Blocking is not the same as moving backwards. So why is the most common method for blocking the same input as moving backwards? I've never understood that. And why shouldn't a character be able to advance while still blocking? Fighters can do that in real life, so why not put it in a game? Why does walking backwards have to go hand in hand with blocking?

The only reason cross-ups are a thing is because back-to-block is a thing. Without back-to-block, cross-ups wouldn't exist. Having a block button doesn't "eliminate" cross-ups. Having back-to-block creates cross-ups. The only reason people think cross-ups are a good thing is because they've become used to holding back to block and are used to games that have cross-ups. If back-to-block was never a thing, and all games had block buttons, and then all of a sudden there was a back-to-block game, people would bitch about cross-ups and say they were broken and cheap. I mean what exactly is a cross-up, anyways? Within the reality of the game, within the imaginary cartoon fight that is going on...how the hell do you even explain a cross-up? Like I'm blocking, the opponent jumps, and all of a sudden I'm not blocking? Or I don't know if I'm blocking or not? I mean if you really think about it, cross-ups are fucking weird and don't make any sense. We've just become so used to them that they have become a staple in fighting games, and thus are considered the "default", while games that don't have them are considered strange. I seriously don't get it.

I said this very same thing about a year ago here, and got raked over the fucking coals for it. It is not worth arguing about on here, EventHubs, Shoryuken or anywhere. MK HAS a block button. SC HAS a Guard button. Many other games are b-to-b. Not sure why this thorns into people the way it does. Guess what? MK also has an uppercut! And sweeps! And Breakers. And EX/MB's. Why don't we beat them to death while we're at it? It is just the guard mechanic of the game. Asking to add/sub some other mechanic in because other games have it is ridiculous, infantile and insulting. Many players play MK/SC and other games with no real problems, just like I can play Heavenly Sword and Infamous without questioning why one doesn't have the same mechanics as the other. This fucking topic comes up every time a new game is coming out, and TYM gets flooded with new posters from other forums questioning why this game does this while that game does that. This US vs Them mentality that the FGC participates in is tiresome and unproductive, and keeps the whole scene from being taken as seriously as it could. The games are entertainment. If the differences in our games were embraced rather than ridiculed, then maybe the community could actually amount to something greater.
Or, you can just rehash this whole pile of shit when SFV/IGAU2/MK11 come out.
James has been right all along.

 

[THTB]

Only ones I can really think of are the Yuri Crossups that stay on the same side but the character turns around, it's a pretty rare occurrence and doesn't have much to do with anything, you just block it like a crossup but they just stay on the same side.

P2W set up hitconfirms for Sinestro because there were crossups he was doing that he wasn't sure which side it'd be on, so that's another one.

 

[Juggs]

As usual, when Juggs has been called out on his poor talking points, he goes, "i'm done with this" and exits thread. Typical. I'm sorry, but calling something dumb and calling it braindead is literally complaining. Tearing. Which is what you did. I'm sorry that you can't see that, or that you don't understand the meaning of words. One of the two.

You're taking the, "complain about them when they happen," to its most literal interpretation to suit your weak, shoddy argument. You've done nothing but complain about them. "Braindead." "Dumb." "Lacks skill" is all just complaining.

Seriously. Did you get hit in the head or something to argue this poorly?

Rude used Deflection! It's not very effective. When people start resorting to ad hominems while arguing, I no longer participate in arguing with them, sorry. It's pointless to argue with someone saying "well, uh, you're just bad and stupid". It's unproductive and shows you've ran out of ammo, while I still have a full clip. Aka I win, you lose, game over. Insert Credit(s).

 

[BillStickers]

Yeah, I was kind of questioning that talking point, too. I mean, I'm sure it can happen BUUUUUUTTT...

I'd imagine an ambiguous cross-up that the offensive player has no idea which side it will land would be AWFULLY hard to hit-confirm.

But that's more theory talk and I can't 100% say that's true.

Only ones I can really think of are the Yuri Crossups that stay on the same side but the character turns around, it's a pretty rare occurrence and doesn't have much to do with anything, you just block it like a crossup but they just stay on the same side.

You two are way behind on Injustice if you think this is a fake argument.

 

[Eji1700]

Why do you and Anabolichris keep using this talking point? If this was a legitimate line of reasoning, infinites would be accepted and sought after, afterall, it's YOUR fault that YOU got hit by it. Gtfo with that. You can justify the bullshit however you want, it doesn't make it any less bullshit. Getting a knockdown isn't something hard to do, it happens a lot and even the best get hit by them constantly.

I really can't wait to see you guys never get knocked down, you must be godlike.

I'm going to guess from this post that you didn't play ST dictator.