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What Does MKX Benefit From Having A Block Button?

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
Why everyone still replying this guy? He is just a Scrub who loves back to block and is no different from the other scrubs we had past year asking for MKX to be back to block because all they want is to play MKX with SF4 meta.
I love SF. I adore MK. I also enjoy SC and SG (but despise Tekken, lol) I've never once questioned why one has different mechanics, or said "Fuck, SF should not have projectile collision and should have a block button." I enjoy each game for it's differences and unique challenges that each one presents (except Tekken). These people that want to change one game to be more like another, or constantly question the validity of a core mechanic of the game, are real bores. I guess some people don't have enough conflict and drama in their personal lives, and they need to drum up some on a FG forum. Sick fucks.
 

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
Refer to my posts in the previous pages, I've addressed how to handle ambiguous cross-ups. I've played various fighting games at tournament settings including Injustice, not once did ambiguous cross-ups concern me.

What may be ambiguous to you may not by ambiguous to everyone else.
@Juggs don't even bother. Ambiguous cross-ups don't concern him. He plays the best fighting game defense of all time. Take notes Juggs, you rookie. He would easily block all of the injustice top players ambiguous set ups. Lucky for them that he didn't play injustice at Evo. Back-to-back champ?? Probably.
 

JDM

Warrior
Having a block button in MK allows you to move your character backwards at all times, with back to block when your opponent throws out an attack your char. cant move backwards. The move sets of MK char. have been created with a block button in mind, with out it a lot of their moves would be OP, why do you think Scorpion was so OP in Injustice when he first came out. There still are cross-ups in MK, new MK players often have a hard time dealing with them even with a block button. I love SF and play the heck out of it as well and I don't want a block button in SF just as much as i don't want back to block in MK. It makes for very different games. I don't want them all the same.
All of this, btw.
 

AnaboliChris

Master of Magnetism
Why do you and Anabolichris keep using this talking point? If this was a legitimate line of reasoning, infinites would be accepted and sought after, afterall, it's YOUR fault that YOU got hit by it. Gtfo with that. You can justify the bullshit however you want, it doesn't make it any less bullshit. Getting a knockdown isn't something hard to do, it happens a lot and even the best get hit by them constantly.

I really can't wait to see you guys never get knocked down, you must be godlike.
I keep using that point because the game does not start off with the opponent directly above you making you guess. You ended up in that situation. Dont blame the game, blame yourself.

Why everyone still replying this guy? He is just a Scrub who loves back to block and is no different from the other scrubs we had past year asking for MKX to be back to block because all they want is to play MKX with SF4 meta.
Lol I'm the scrub..says the guy that likes the "Free get out of jail" button.

I just wanted to unpack this, real quick.
You see, I don't deny that I get knocked down. Of course I do. I fall into ambiguous cross-up set-ups all the time.
The difference isn't, "I'm so gdlike i just deal with it."
The difference is, "This is happening and I accept it for what it is."
To summarize: I don't cry about the ambiguous 50/50 when it happens. You, apparently, do. My problem was your insinuation that the ambiguous cross-up is somehow "unfair," when it isn't.
Are you my long lost twin brother?
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Rude used Deflection! It's not very effective. When people start resorting to ad hominems while arguing, I no longer participate in arguing with them, sorry. It's pointless to argue with someone saying "well, uh, you're just bad and stupid". It's unproductive and shows you've ran out of ammo, while I still have a full clip. Aka I win, you lose, game over. Insert Credit(s).
To be honest, using evaluative categories as an argument isn't better than other fallacies like ad hominem. Well, it's up to you to decide what's acceptable for you and what isn't, I guess.
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
No not at all. You misinterpreted it. If that was my intention then I would have saved all the trouble of writing textbook paragraphs within this thread and would have just straight out said so.

If you forgot the topic of the thread then I suggest reading the first post.
I was responding to your claim that nobody ever complains about b2b/ambiguous jump ins except for people on this site.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Rude used Deflection! It's not very effective. When people start resorting to ad hominems while arguing, I no longer participate in arguing with them, sorry. It's pointless to argue with someone saying "well, uh, you're just bad and stupid". It's unproductive and shows you've ran out of ammo, while I still have a full clip. Aka I win, you lose, game over. Insert Credit(s).
That isn't what I did at all. I said you were complaining. I proved how you were complaining. I used your own words to illustrate how you were complaining. You didn't. I pointed out that you were bad at arguing because...shocking, you are. Even this, this childish reply where you cling to your denial that you've actually made a point is proof.

You literally called ambiguous cross-ups "stupid, braindead, lacking skill, etc." These are 100% subjective points.

My point has always been: I'm not even "for" or "against" back-to-block. I'm against the shit attitude that 50/50s are somehow scrubby, or unfair, or lacking skill, or whatever shit lampshade that shit players want to put on them. My point is, since I need to reiterate again, that you need to stop tearing about them and just accept them and not shit on the players that use them by implying they're scrubby. Scorpion in MK9 is a character based around 50/50s. Are players like MIT or Slips scrubby for playing a character that wins by making you guess until you die? Because that's all that an ambiguous cross-up is: Guessing. No different from a vortex and no, you can't go, "Well with a vortex you have a better chance of guessing right." No, you don't. It's STILL a guess.

You haven't "won" anything. The fact that you cling to your ad hominem talking point only goes to show that you have nothing else because you can't prove me wrong.

Also, isn't this the "second" time you've stomped your foot and said, "You're wrong and I win because I said so, and I'm not replying anymore" only to reply again?

That makes you bad at rage-quitting arguments, too.


Short version: DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE!
 
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Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
You two are way behind on Injustice if you think this is a fake argument.
Bill, I never said that it doesn't happen. At all. Look again.

I'm saying that ambiguous cross ups are apart of fighting games. They're not bad things. They're just another form of 50/50, which is something every fighting game has be it an overhead/low 50/50, a continuous 50/50 like a vortex, etc. The awful argument that they're "scrubby" needs to stop.
 

REDRUM

www.twitter.com/redrum26
But MK does indeed have "cross-ups".. So I'm confused...

If u question the block button this game isn't for you.

/
 

Colares

Apprentice
Why would games would have back to block?
Sometimes 6 normals are more fun and more than 6 buttons in Fighting games is impossible to play unless they are macros;
Sometimes cross ups aren't a mindless 50/50 because they can contain trade offs like getting out of the corner or being unsafe or if it is on wakeup a grappler can knockdown and go for a better mixup. in short games that center around the oki benefit a lot.
What MK could win with back to block?
Besides more buttons.
In footsies walking back is a nice option select. Or to get out of throw range.
You forfeit offensive momentum if you want to block just like in MKX you can't block out of runs.
There's probably more but my mind is slow.
And UMVC3 unblockable only happen because you can't pushblock assists and do something in this interval after your pushblock like go into invicible moves or fly, throw enemy etc.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
But MK does indeed have "cross-ups".. So I'm confused...

If u question the block button this game isn't for you.

/
Crossups in MK and crossups in a B2B game are 100% different. In MK, yes they cross over you and attack from the other side, it is blockable with no thought except to stand block it. In a B2B game, if you aren't holding the correct direction then you get hit with a combo. This is what people mean when they are talking about crossups. Not the literal interpretation of them jumping over you and attacking.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
How does the block button benefit me as a player? Well I like to win as easy as possible so let's do the math.

I can't walk back and play footsies and still be safe. That sucks. I actually have to make an active choice and really know my spacing. That's not good for me. -1 point!

I can't use cross up mix ups to open my opponent up. I only win by exploiting lesser players knowledge and just use low/mid, left/right, and poke/throw mix ups. Taking away one of my tools is also not good for me. But wait it also means I can't fall victim to my own lack of spacing and I won't be hit by left/right cross ups anymore. Ok, this point is null. -1 and +1 cancel each other out.

With a block button I also have to actually know when I can lower my guard, since I can't mash during block stun and have an attack fly the second I can. Nope, now I have to let go of block intentionally which is going to suck for me! -1 points.

Hmmm... So far it's looking like I get absolutely no benefit from a block button at all. The removal of cross ups doesn't make up for the disadvantages in footsies and pressure.

Fuck this, I quit!
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Off the top of the head following MK9's differences there's a few.

1. No Cross up mix ups
2. You stay stationary when blocking as opposed to to having the choice of walking back
3. In between strings you can let go of block so it will whiff, but known when to do that is a skill on its own
4. Fireballs, Holding down, and holding down block are like 2 different properties as you have the risky option of letting go of block so they cant chip and gain Meter
5. More of an MK9 focused one , its more played on chip dmg you dont need mix ups as you can chip them to death
6. Blocking/non blocking mix ups, think of JC pressuring you, you are basically in a mix up which is to keep blocking and take chip and constant frame traps, or take the risk and let go and get caught with a hit that leads you right back in.
7. It allows MK Teleporters to work good without it being broken (cross ups)

I'm sure there's more i'll edit if i think of any
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Lol I'm the scrub..says the guy that likes the "Free get out of jail" button.
Why would i argue with you when your argument is not even true. I play any fighting game at high competitive level without bitching, if i can do it, so can you. Now stop bitching and level up Scrub.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
When i do an ambiguous cross-up with Ibuki, i don't even know which side she will land, so neither does my opponent, so i take advantage of it and do a empty jump into low, which surely will going to hit because he is worried trying to figure out if the jump overhead will hit left or right.
I'm sure you realize they don't necessarily have to take the "so called" Ibuki 50-50 jump in. If they actually studied match-ups they would know how all her jump ins hit (The people I play with do at least). If they don't wan't to take the 50-50, things like focus back dash do exist. Sure you can chase them down if you expect it, but it is still a guess. If you guess wrong there you are probably going to get punished for it.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
I don't think these so called 50-50 jump ins are much of a problem. A real competitor will sit down and learn the matchup. I do feel that there are other 50-50's that are much more powerful. Like AE 2012 Seth
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Why would i argue with you when your argument is not even true. I play any fighting game at high competitive level without bitching, if i can do it, so can you. Now stop bitching and level up Scrub.
QFTT.

MK9 didnt have any get off jail free button. If you think so then you obviously have no idea how MK9 works lol.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
It seems to me that the OP completely shifted the burden from the outset without real justification.

A fighting game should have realistic, intuitive controls. A human can stand with their feet planted, raise their arms to guard their face and torso, and not move backwards. A human can walk backwards without raising their arms to shield their upper body. Unless one lives among weird, uncoordinated people, the fact of the matter is that realistically the bio-mechanic action of blocking and the bio-mechanic action of moving backwards can be done completely separate from each other.

Yeah, I know we are talking about games where people shoot fireballs and levitate and all that, but still, even in a game with fantastical moves, who wouldn't want the fundamental controls to correspond intuitively to human motor function? Walking backwards. Blocking. These are pretty core actions in a fight. If we watch a kickboxing match they punch, they kick, they block, and they move around.

Thus, it seems the real question is: "why the firetruck would someone designing a game intentionally link the backwards motion to blocking?" Not every game does this. It isn't like there aren't enough buttons. Console controllers have plenty of buttons. Really, it seems like if we were designing a game from scratch, no prior knowledge of other video games, just trying to make a cool fighting game, the intuitive sense would be to have different controls for the raise-my-arms-up action versus the move-my-legs-back action. If not only because different limbs are involved.

Since blocking is a fundamental part of fighting and something a person can do quite independently of moving backwards, it really seems the onus for justification would fall upon those who would maintain that there shouldn't be the natural separation. Those who suggest a dedicated blocking button shouldn't exist really bear the burden, IMHO.
Many old school arcade cabinets did not have as many buttons as controllers do today. It may seem natural to you, but many old school player think back to block feels natural. It's usually a matter of which game you played first
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I'm sure you realize they don't necessarily have to take the "so called" Ibuki 50-50 jump in. If they actually studied match-ups they would know how all her jump ins hit (The people I play with do at least). If they don't wan't to take the 50-50, things like focus back dash do exist. Sure you can chase them down if you expect it, but it is still a guess. If you guess wrong there you are probably going to get punished for it.
That is the problem, they don't know where it will land, so they don't know which side to dash, she might land in front and if you guess wrong you will dash in front of her, and focus backdash doesn't solve anything, if her jumps is aimed to land on the oposite side you will backdash right in front of her when you would should stay away, and is still a full combo punish. It happens all the time, even Gamerbee on evo got caught by this against Sakonoko.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
That is the problem, they don't know where it will land, so they don't know which side to dash, she might land in front and if you guess wrong you will dash in front of her, and focus backdash doesn't solve anything, if her jumps is aimed to land on the oposite side you will backdash right in front of her when you would should stay away, and is still a full combo punish. It happens all the time, even Gamerbee on evo got caught by this against Sakonoko.
It is still a matter of learning the match-up. Most of the time Gamerbee was making foolish decisions and trying to wake-up attack (which he can normally get away with due to Adon's wake-up timing difference from the rest of the cast, which a lot of people don't have setups for). Sako did an excellent job of mixing it up with safe jumps among other things. Gamerbee simply hasn't learned the match up well enough. This was apparent at a couple evos and topanga A league 2013. Also you shouldn't forget about delayed wake-up.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
It kinda did with armor lol, in my opinion at least.
Wrong.

Armor required one bar of meter 1/3 that is.

In a game like MK9 where meter was everything spanding a bar to randomly throw out armored moves wasnt smart at all.
Also most armored special moves where full combo punishable on block or whiff.

And theres lots of games with invincible or amored moves.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Wrong.

Armor required one bar of meter 1/3 that is.

In a game like MK9 where meter was everything spanding a bar to randomly throw out armored moves wasnt smart at all.
Also most armored special moves where full combo punishable on block or whiff.

And theres lots of games with invincible or amored moves.
Kenshi ex shoulder, Sonya ex cartwheel, Kabal flashparry. Just because it has some sort of cost (which we all know is insignificant) doesn't mean it isnt as powerful.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
It is still a matter of learning the match-up. Most of the time Gamerbee was making foolish decisions and trying to wake-up attack (which he can normally get away with due to Adon's wake-up timing difference from the rest of the cast, which a lot of people don't have setups for). Sako did an excellent job of mixing it up with safe jumps among other things. Gamerbee simply hasn't learned the match up well enough. This was apparent at a couple evos and topanga A league 2013. Also you shouldn't forget about delayed wake-up.
Dude, i play Ibuki for over a year, i've understand how knockdown on SF4 work. I know how DWU works and i know how to deal with them. Its all a matter of mixups.
There are moments you can jump into someone head on wakeup and he will take a clean hit, i know why this happens.
Even top players, even from topanga are still caught into kunai traps, i also know why this happens.