What Does MKX Benefit From Having A Block Button?

[WakeUp DP]

Kenshi ex shoulder, Sonya ex cartwheel, Kabal flashparry. Just because it has some sort of cost (which we all know is insignificant) doesn't mean it isnt as powerful.

Those were exceptions and yet were still no free. Remember most were full combo punishable on block.

 

[Biggs]

Dude, i play Ibuki for over a year, i've understand how knockdown on SF4 work. I know how DWU works and i know how to deal with them. Its all a matter of mixups.
There are moments you can jump into someone head on wakeup and he will take a clean hit, i know why this happens.
Even top players, even from topanga are still caught into kunai traps, i also know why this happens.

I never said you didn't. Since you know how and why all this happens, I shouldn't need to explain anything to you so there is no point of bringing up anything that doesn't add to the discussion.

 

[Juggs]

That isn't what I did at all. I said you were complaining. I proved how you were complaining. I used your own words to illustrate how you were complaining. You didn't. I pointed out that you were bad at arguing because...shocking, you are. Even this, this childish reply where you cling to your denial that you've actually made a point is proof.

You literally called ambiguous cross-ups "stupid, braindead, lacking skill, etc." These are 100% subjective points.

I never claimed anything but my own opinion, you're the one interpreting my posts as me stating facts. When you realize you have no leg to stand on, you stop arguing the point, and resort to ad hominems and straw women arguments. The point in an argument when that happens, the argument is over, because you're no longer arguing the same thing.

My point has always been: I'm not even "for" or "against" back-to-block. I'm against the shit attitude that 50/50s are somehow scrubby, or unfair, or lacking skill, or whatever shit lampshade that shit players want to put on them. My point is, since I need to reiterate again, that you need to stop tearing about them and just accept them and not shit on the players that use them by implying they're scrubby. Scorpion in MK9 is a character based around 50/50s. Are players like MIT or Slips scrubby for playing a character that wins by making you guess until you die? Because that's all that an ambiguous cross-up is: Guessing. No different from a vortex and no, you can't go, "Well with a vortex you have a better chance of guessing right." No, you don't. It's STILL a guess.

I can complain about a bullshit mechanic all I want. I never called the players scrubby, and never will. I just dislike the mechanic, sorry you can't accept that. Looks like you're just gonna have to deal with it.

You haven't "won" anything. The fact that you cling to your ad hominem talking point only goes to show that you have nothing else because you can't prove me wrong.

I just have enough experience arguing to know when the argument is over. And I'm not trying to prove you wrong, there's nothing to "prove". I made no objective claim, I called a mechanic bullshit. I guess since I didn't use "imo", you read it as a fact, which is again your mistake not mine. You jumped in arguing with me then resorting to ad hominems, not the other way around.

Also, isn't this the "second" time you've stomped your foot and said, "You're wrong and I win because I said so, and I'm not replying anymore" only to reply again?

*Stomp*, Juggs wins, Flawless Victory!

Short version: DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE!

Friendship?

 

[Eddy Wang]

I never said you didn't. Since you know how and why all this happens, I shouldn't need to explain anything to you so there is no point of bringing up anything that doesn't add to the discussion.

There was nothing to add ever since the beggining, you were the one who said you can focus backdash an ambigous jump into low. I only told you that it can backfire either way, its still a 50-50

 

[Biggs]

Those were exceptions and yet were still no free. Remember most were full combo punishable on block.

They seem pretty free to me, a d4 ms f1 on block with sonya almost built a full bar and was still plus 1 on block. I believe it takes 26 whiffed gas blasts for Kabal to build a bar, plus that doesn't begin to take into account the meter he builds from jail strings. Kenshi's whole neutral revolves around using specials (which if you block it he gains more meter). On top of that the game grants you an extra bar for getting the first hit.

 

[Biggs]

There was nothing to add ever since the beggining, you were the one who said you can focus backdash an ambigous jump into low. I only told you that it can backfire either way, its still a 50-50

Delayed wake-up still takes care of that in most situations

 

[Eddy Wang]

Delayed wake-up still takes care of that in most situations

You said well, most situations. Yet Ibuki is one the few chars designed specifically to react to the delayed wakeup, this is why her knockdown game is still intact in Ultra, different for the half of the cast who used to forge similar jump setups before.

I even think she got even better in ultra.

 

[Biggs]

You said well, most situations. Yet Ibuki is one the few chars designed specifically to react to the delayed wakeup, this is why her knockdown game is still intact in Ultra, different for the half of the cast who used to forge similar jump setups before.

I even think she got even better in ultra.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that a real competitor will learn the match up, nothing is as good as that. That is why it was the first thing I said

 

[Eddy Wang]

Still doesn't take away from the fact that a real competitor will learn the match up, nothing is as good as that. That is why it was the first thing I said

The guy who fights my Ibuki on daily basis for over a year is a real competitor, its not a random dude, i think this is the problem most of the time, when someone is getting blown up by something it doesn't necessarely mean he is a scrub or doesn't know the matchup just because he is from a different scene or country.

On a fighting game players evolve over time and new ways to approach the match and achieve better results will never cease to appear, no one do the exact same thing over and over a year. And the common principle in any fighting game is to get inside the opponent's head and stay there.

 

[Biggs]

The guy who fights my Ibuki on daily basis for over a year is a real competitor, its not a random dude, i think this is the problem most of the time, when someone is getting blown up by something it doesn't necessarely mean he is a scrub or doesn't know the matchup just because he is from a different scene or country.

On a fighting game players evolve over time and new ways to approach the match and achieve better results will never cease to appear, no one do the exact same thing over and over a year. And the common principle in any fighting game is to get inside the opponent's head and stay there.

Of course it doesn't mean they are a scrub, but I still believe it means they truly don't know the match up (aside from tiers of course).

 

[cyke_out]

Are people actually saying that a good player can't call a bullshit mechanic bullshit and still be considered a good player?

It's entirely possible to enjoy a thing, but still recognize the thing has flaws. You still level up and learn to deal with the flaw but it doesn't make the flaw go away.

 

[That__John__Guy]

Many old school arcade cabinets did not have as many buttons as controllers do today. It may seem natural to you, but many old school player think back to block feels natural. It's usually a matter of which game you played first

That is exactly my thought. I believe that people like b2b not because it IS natural or intuitive, but because they are used to doing it that way back from when there were limitations and it FEELS natural. We could make a game where Up is Down, Right is Up, Left is Up, Left + Down is Left, and Down is Right. It is a stupid system, but it could be made; then if people played that game for ten years, it would FEEL natural. It might feel natural, but it doesn't make as much intuitive sense as having up be up, down be down, left be left, and right be right.

Again, if someone is controlling a human on a screen, what intuitive, objectively natural basis is there for connecting the backward motion of leg limbs with the shielding raising of arm limbs, when these are actions that humans can do independent of one another? In a world with multiple buttons available, it doesn't seem there is an objectively natural basis for doing it. The only reason to do it like that is because a lot of people are used to this inherently unnatural b2b system to where it feels natural to them.

If we are talking about dedicated block buttons versus b2b then it is obvious some people have preferences based solely on what they are used to, sure, got that. Yet, the OP made it seem that b2b was somehow inherently objectively natural and people who prefer a dedicated block button should provide some mechanical basis for why there should be a dedicated block button. He didn't say, "hey, I prefer b2b because that's what I grew up with and it just feels natural." If that's what he said, then hey, no argument there. Yet, if the argument is going beyond that, I'm merely pointing out that objectively human beings can block independently of moving backwards: a person can do one without doing the other, so objectively separate controls are more realistic and intuitive, apart from what FEELS natural to one group or another. Thus, his assumption that those who prefer a dedicated block button have the burden of justifying it through a beneficial game mechanic seems misplaced, since dedicated block buttons are objectively more realistic for human movement

 

[Barrogh]

On a related topic.
Some people here say that in MK you can't mash reversals during blockstun. Why are those b2b games we're talking about are different? Pretty sure you should still return your stick to blocking position by the time next attack connects in order to continue blocking. For that matter, what stops you from doing the same in MK, with the exception of using block button instead of stick?
And if that doesn't work like that, then how it's an inherent feature of b2b instead of being a design of a particular game?

 

[Rude]

I never claimed anything but my own opinion, you're the one interpreting my posts as me stating facts. When you realize you have no leg to stand on, you stop arguing the point, and resort to ad hominems and straw women arguments. The point in an argument when that happens, the argument is over, because you're no longer arguing the same thing.



I can complain about a bullshit mechanic all I want. I never called the players scrubby, and never will. I just dislike the mechanic, sorry you can't accept that. Looks like you're just gonna have to deal with it.



I just have enough experience arguing to know when the argument is over. And I'm not trying to prove you wrong, there's nothing to "prove". I made no objective claim, I called a mechanic bullshit. I guess since I didn't use "imo", you read it as a fact, which is again your mistake not mine. You jumped in arguing with me then resorting to ad hominems, not the other way around.



*Stomp*, Juggs wins, Flawless Victory!



Friendship?

I don't think you understand the meaning of the words you're using. The only thing I may have said originally was that I didn't think you were very good at arguing. That's just me stating an observation, not trying to attack you. You can interpret that as an ad hominem if you want, I guess. I'll admit that the "hitting your head" comment was a bit below the belt, sure. But while I have said this, I've always remained CONSISTENT with the points I've been making.

You DO know what making a point means, do you?

Now, let's unpack this....yet again.

1) I never stopped arguing the point. In fact, I've re-stated it several times. So, once again, since I know you struggle with words Juggs, I'll do so again: I am neither for nor against ambiguous cross-ups. I accept them as a thing that exists in fighting games, and see nothing wrong with them as a mechanic in a fighting game. To me, it is yet another 50/50 in a genre of video game that has 50/50s. I never once called them "braindead," "scrubby," "Bullshit," "Dumb" etc. That was all you.

2) What straw man arguments did I use? Was it me objectively stating facts? Or was it me calling you out on your shitty attitude? Or exposing you for the crybaby you are? "Waaaaaahhhh! They're bullshit! Waaaahhhh!!"

3) "This is my opinion, man." That's the entire crux of your argument. My argument is that these things are apart of fighting games and its better to accept them than complain and cry. My other argument is that you, personally, have an EXTREMELY shitty attitude. Objectively, yes, an opinion can't be, "wrong." But it can be based on mis-information, prejudice, or in your case, an extremely shitty attitude. Much like you say a person who uses ad hominems has nothing else to lean on, a person who says, "This is my opinion, I don't care what you think" is the sign of a beaten man who can defend his position with nothing else.

If you have a strong opinion, Juggs, you need to be able to defend it. People will disagree with you and explain why. This is how discourse works. Something you don't quite grasp.

Now, since I have to elaborate on basic points to you, because again, such tough words...

I never said that you were called the players scrubby. I said that your attitude and your talking points STRONGLY IMPLY that viewpoint, because they do. Do I know for certain that is how you feel? No. But the implication is there.

Juggs, you haven't won anything except for in your own mind.

You've rage-quitted the argument twice, only to come back and dance for me like a puppet, which means you're completely incapable of following through with your own declarations.

Seriously, if you say you're done, be done. Anything else just makes you look like a jackass.

Your "stomp" was more like a wet fart that you're the only one that doesn't notice. The rest of us can pick up on the stench just fine.

And believe me, you reek of a shitty attitude.

BTW: NOW I've used a shit-ton of ad hominems. Now you can completely justify your THIRD rage-quit of the argument. Unless you arbitrarily declare unfounded victory.

You're welcome.

 

[AnaboliChris]

Why would i argue with you when your argument is not even true. I play any fighting game at high competitive level without bitching, if i can do it, so can you. Now stop bitching and level up Scrub.

No ones bitching here. If you couldnt read, I was saying I PREFERED B2B because I like the challenge. Learn to read to understand.

LOL'd at "level up" with the block button. Dont make sense there buddy.

 

[Eddy Wang]

No ones bitching here. If you couldnt read, I was saying I PREFERED B2B because I like the challenge. Learn to read to understand.

LOL'd at "level up" with the block button. Dont make sense there buddy.

Ninja please!

 

[cyke_out]

No ones bitching here. If you couldnt read, I was saying I PREFERED B2B because I like the challenge. Learn to read to understand.

LOL'd at "level up" with the block button. Dont make sense there buddy.

Wait you actually think the block button is easier on the defender than back to block?

Yeah, I'm out of here. Some people can't be reasoned with.

Enjoy the thread.

 

[Rude]

I don't think there is anything wrong with either system, to be honest.

I've never really felt like one blocking system was better than the other. I mean ultimately, it's a difference of button presses and for me, it doesn't really matter.

Some people have preferences, which is fine. My only gripe would be with people who dislike one type of blocking system because of things they can't personally handle in-game. That's the weakness of the player, not the blocking mechanic.

With the exception of getting rid of real cross-ups, I don't see any benefit of a block button over back to block. Likewise, with the exception of being able to put your opponent into such a situation, I don't see the benefit of back to block over a block button. I like both systems just fine and can play in either one.

 

[Biggs]

Wait you actually think the block button is easier on the defender than back to block?

Yeah, I'm out of here. Some people can't be reasoned with.

Enjoy the thread.

Well mathematically speaking it is. While holding a block button you can only be mixed up 3 ways really, throw low overhead. In back to block games there are generally more options to open someone up (Throw, low, overhead, cross up overhead, cross up low... etc). So I don't see anything wrong with that statement

 

[Barrogh]

Well mathematically speaking it is. While holding a block button you can only be mixed up 3 ways really, throw low overhead. In back to block games there are generally more options to open someone up (Throw, low, overhead, cross up overhead, cross up low... etc). So I don't see anything wrong with that statement

Honestly, we are running in circles at this point, and it's understandable. The topic is hot, people cba to read 10+ pages. But they are quite the same really. Someone making some sort of elitist post, someone else retorts, then somebody points out BB option selects (crossups), then someone else points out B2B option selects (footsies/defence), then someone mentions some random specials, then you get a page of people bickering... Rinse and repeat

 

[IceNinja]

I found the interview of Tobias i was thinking of @Johnny San it was on OBS. They ask a lot of great questions and at 37:37 James asks him about the block button, at first he cant remember but then recalls a couple of things. They just wanted it to be different, and found it awkward that you couldn't move backwards when your opponent threw out an attack in SF.

 

[Johnny San]

I found the interview of Tobias i was thinking of @Johnny San it was on OBS. They ask a lot of great questions and at 37:37 James asks him about the block button, at first he cant remember but then recalls a couple of things. They just wanted it to be different, and found it awkward that you couldn't move backwards when your opponent threw out an attack in SF.

Very nice. Thanks.

 

[Big Pampering]

With the argument anibolichris is making I would like to see that guy play cyrax and get hit by a net. Just don't get hit bro, you put yourself in that situation.

 

[Big Pampering]

Also both mechanics have positives and negatives. There is no use arguing that a game needs to be b2b because b2b has negatives as well. Not every game needs to be played the same. The 50/50's on knockdown that you guys are praising are despised by a lot of top players from street fighter as far as I know and they think it is scrubby as hell. I don't know about other b2b games but if you like it so much why not play the game(s) with b2b that you praise so much instead of changing another game into something it will never be?

 

[aldazo]

...at first he cant remember but then recalls a couple of things. They just wanted it to be different, and found it awkward that you couldn't move backwards when your opponent threw out an attack in SF.

and at the end he said it again: "I don't remember really".