Wake up attacks in injustice too easy = good or not?

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Ill just throw this out there:

Black Adam has one wakeup, and it happens to be the games best.

And even the best can be baited and punished

 

[Axel_Redd]

A 100% combo in marvel is only 33% of your team's health. Thats a TEAM game.
Also, tech rolls in that game are as simple as holding a direction. You also have the option to call an assist while still invulnerable. Resets in that game have to be very very elaborate because real players dont have to block, they know how to get the fuck out of there and reverse the pressure.

Please stop with the marvel comparisons... There are none.

example of resets in marvel pls?? o-0

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Magneto:

Reset 1. End combo early using j.S knockdown which leaves you off screen while you airdash backwards and use meaty fireball. Call assist as you hit the floor and triangle jump forward for crossup/lockdown/more mixups.

This works because most people forward tech when in or near the corner. If they dont forward tech they block the meaty fireball anyway and you get free mixups.

Reset 2. Near the end of a combo launch the opponent and jab, this causes them to pop out of the combo. Depending on your timing they cant forward tech because you are in the way. This causes you to be at advantage to grab or air to air hit confirm.


In both if these situations a good player who has seen you do it before will know how to get out of the mixup.

Resets in marvel are basically purposely dropped combos with built in mixups. These examples are pretty simple standard resets... It gets sooo dirty with layers of i knew that you knew that i knew blah blah.

Anyways, lets get back to injustice.

*edit
You can block in the air in that game which eliminates high/low mixups which is why resets need to be elaborate. Up-back reduces high/low mixups. Also, push blocking costs no meter in that game meaning you can do it all you want. the metagame involving it is very deep in itself

 

[WaywardStranger]

Knockdown advantage is a novel concept to MK-only players. Due to the ease of wake-ups in MK9, they think that fighting games should be played mostly from neutral positions (save for those chars w/standing resets), thus limiting their conception of spacial-temporal advantage in general. Alas, I'm an MK-only guy, or was.

As to the recent changes to wake-ups in IGAU, its garbage and changed the game for the worse. Mega dittos to digi on this issue.

edit: can't deny the wake-up changes made the Aquaman MU feel much more comfortable with Ares.

 

[Axel_Redd]

i wonder how injustice is going to work now? btw is deathstrokes setups still worth using?

 

[MagicMan357]

People just love easy ways out, they just wont admit it

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Everyone who is saying that wakeups are ruined should go fight pre-patch Green Arrow and try to get out of his Super reset shenanigans.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

GA super resets arent supposed to be off knockdowns. You cancel a string that leaves them standing so it ALMOST combos but resets instead.

 

[jak d ripr]

The only issue I have with wake-up attacks are the ones that are invincible and safe on block. I'm all for invincible wake-ups, and I'm all for making it easier to perform said invincible wake-ups, but when you make said wake-up unpunishable on block you're making the player who got the knockdown have to work harder than the person who got knocked down and that's some horse raddish imo.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

The only issue I have with wake-up attacks are the ones that are invincible and safe on block. I'm all for invincible wake-ups, and I'm all for making it easier to perform said invincible wake-ups, but when you make said wake-up unpunishable on block you're making the player who got the knockdown have to work harder than the person who got knocked down and that's some horse raddish imo.

I can totally get behind you on this one. The words invincible and unpunishable should never describe the same attack

 

[chessmaster]

Somebody please explain what "too easy" means. I didn't know they changed.

 

[Eddy Wang]

At least the some characters who where top in MK9 had a shitty wakeup to makeup for their overwhelming Gameplay in general, besides Kung Lao who had the best wakeup in the game.

 

[VOR]

It makes the top tier chars with a better neutral game and damage even better, and worsens the characters who relied on oki mindgames who weren't all that great to begin with.

 

[RoGE]

Couldn't pre-patch wake up attacks be just as good as they are now with some practice?

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Yea, ppl are just being salty bcuz its easier to do now so it gives them less of an edge on those whom they deem to be of a lesser skill level

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

OK, and what about when all players learned to do wakeups properly? It was getting that way anyway, not exactly hard to do.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Lol, theyll find something else to cry about. Its amazing some of the things people say here.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

At least the some characters who where top in MK9 had a shitty wakeup to makeup for their overwhelming Gameplay in general, besides Kung Lao who had the best wakeup in the game.

Kabal - Ex NDC
Kung Lao - Spin
Kenshi - Shoulder
Sonya - Kartwheel

Cage is probably the only 1 with an overwhelming playstyle with no real good wakeup.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I do find it funny that 3D FG's have better Oki and momentum based styles.... and 2D's are more simply dropping the largest combo or doing the largest combo into a standing reset (which would equal a knockdown in a 3D fighter).

Funny how that works.

 

[KingHippo]

AU_IM_DIGIMON, this is the one thing we disagree on most in terms of fighting games (though i agree that a higher skill requirement for wakeups is good). I dont think that if you knocked someone down that you should get extra advantage. It's like, ok, you already got a combo and knocked me down, now you're telling me that i'm at a 50% chance of standing up right back into another combo, of the 50 remaining 50% chance of being caught in pressure and have to keep blocking, of the 25% remaining 50% chance of an attack that'll push you off (but that i cannot follow up on, so ends neutral) and 50% chance of getting up neutral. it's like ok, i have maybe a 1/4 chance of getting up... wow you did a 50% combo on me and i lost the other 50% trying to stand up. That's not fun. (that's one major reason i dont like your favorite game, tekken tag 2, cant get off the ground without dying. I literally watched like a 2 hour long tutorial for how to stand up, and even then it's not guaranteed. Should have been titled "how to give yourself a slight chance to stand up") if knocking someone down once and then exploiting a 75+% advantage is "skill" then i'd rather not.

AU_IM_DIGIMON, What i like about wakeups as an idea is that they provide a better meta-game for standing up and dont make it as simple as "oh you got knocked down? lol get fucked." they make it more of a 33/33/33/1 game. 33 stand up neutral, 33 get punished, 33 hit for advantage, 1 because there's always a randomness factor. This is added to the wakeup/techroll/standup game that makes standing up more interesting and generally more skillful because it's not just get fucked or stand up but also positioning, offense vs defense, and adds to the footsie game.

I don't get this argument that it's not "skillfull" that the opponent gets to run train on someone who has been knocked down. One of the number one lessons in any fighting game has always been pretty simple: "Don't get knocked down". When you are down, your options are purposefully limited because you as the player made the crucial error of letting your defense slip and getting knocked down, and now you lose a significant amount of options because of that error. It's, again, a pretty simple system that has pretty much worked without question for a long time.

Is it not the skill of the other guy that let him break your guard and force you on your back? Why should he, having obtained his knockdown, now have to back away in order to DEFEND against the guy he just had to outplay to get down in the first place? Now I agree that with meter, a person should probably get a few more options, and I'm cool with that, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why with zero meter a person has to be afraid of pressuring, say, Deathstroke on his knockdowns because he has these two great, fully invulnerable options that beat jump-overs and grab attempts.

Basically, knockdowns shouldn't have to be more "skillfull' because the other guy already did the "skillful" thing of knocking you down in the first place. If you place a King in check in Chess, he shouldn't be able to just swing the cross on top of his head via dice roll to attempt to shove his attackers back to neutral. He has to think his way out and simply deal with the board space he has available.

 

[DJ L Toro]

I don't get this argument that it's not "skillfull" that the opponent gets to run train on someone who has been knocked down. One of the number one lessons in any fighting game has always been pretty simple: "Don't get knocked down". When you are down, your options are purposefully limited because you as the player made the crucial error of letting your defense slip and getting knocked down, and now you lose a significant amount of options because of that error. It's, again, a pretty simple system that has pretty much worked without question for a long time.

Is it not the skill of the other guy that let him break your guard and force you on your back? Why should he, having obtained his knockdown, now have to back away in order to DEFEND against the guy he just had to outplay to get down in the first place? Now I agree that with meter, a person should probably get a few more options, and I'm cool with that, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why with zero meter a person has to be afraid of pressuring, say, Deathstroke on his knockdowns because he has these two great, fully invulnerable options that beat jump-overs and grab attempts.

Basically, knockdowns shouldn't have to be more "skillfull' because the other guy already did the "skillful" thing of knocking you down in the first place. If you place a King in check in Chess, he shouldn't be able to just swing the cross on top of his head via dice roll to attempt to shove his attackers back to neutral. He has to think his way out and simply deal with the board space he has available.

baiting and punishing isnt defense, it's offense. I just think that get knocked down=lose is not fun and it's better to have more options to get up. You're really telling me that i should die because the opponent hit me with a sweep and i lose 95% of my healthbar trying to stand up? that's stupid. Even if there's skill involved that's not fun. you're really telling me i should be forced to block ambiguous crossups, mixups that are + on block, grabs that otg, etc? at least having the option of waking upis a good thing instead of dying because it is impossible to stand up.

also, your chess analogy is bad. check is more like being cornered in fighting games. In the corner you're at a disadvantage and most characters do not have a free out of the corner. positioning is something that's important from the very first moment in a fight.

 

[KingHippo]

baiting and punishing isnt defense, it's offense. I just think that get knocked down=lose is not fun and it's better to have more options to get up. You're really telling me that i should die because the opponent hit me with a sweep and i lose 95% of my healthbar trying to stand up? that's stupid. Even if there's skill involved that's not fun. you're really telling me i should be forced to block ambiguous crossups, mixups that are + on block, grabs that otg, etc? at least having the option of waking upis a good thing instead of dying because it is impossible to stand up.

also, your chess analogy is bad. check is more like being cornered in fighting games. In the corner you're at a disadvantage and most characters do not have a free out of the corner. positioning is something that's important from the very first moment in a fight.

Of course you should have to deal with everything they throw at you, you made the mistake of getting knocked down. You can have the option of a reversal move but for the most part just don't put yourself in that position. Of course it's easier said than done, but that's the game. Okizeme should be a critical part of any game and one that you never want to be a part of. I guess I just don't really see why that kind of critical mistake should even be remotely favorable to the person with their back on the ground, it seems counter-intuitive.

It's pretty poor, but my goal was to establish that if you're in a shitty situation in a strategic type game, there probably shouldn't be this ghetto option to just end pressure easy because "it's stupid". You should have to think your way out of every situation, and if that includes attempting to block some horseshit mixup or attempt a reversal that is strict to come out, then so be it.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Of course you should have to deal with everything they throw at you, you made the mistake of getting knocked down. You can have the option of a reversal move but for the most part just don't put yourself in that position. Of course it's easier said than done, but that's the game. Okizeme should be a critical part of any game and one that you never want to be a part of. I guess I just don't really see why that kind of critical mistake should even be remotely favorable to the person with their back on the ground, it seems counter-intuitive.

It's pretty poor, but my goal was to establish that if you're in a shitty situation in a strategic type game, there probably shouldn't be this ghetto option to just end pressure easy because "it's stupid". You should have to think your way out of every situation, and if that includes attempting to block some horseshit mixup or attempt a reversal that is strict to come out, then so be it.

And getting knocked down isnt a "mistake." oh my bad i just fell on my face, yeah go ahead and kill me now please. and it's not favorable to someone who got knocked down, your options are limited to baitable/punishable wakeups, techrolls, and doing nothing. how is that advantageous. you have a very warped notion of what wakeups do. you dont win a game by getting knocked down a couple times, but you shouldnt lose it for that either. if i got knocked down then you already did your damage to me. there's a difference between being practically guaranteed death and having to deal with your oki game. i choose the latter.
i didnt say to have an easy way out, i said to have more options. try actually reading what i'm typing and not just filling in what you want to argue against.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Everyone who is saying that wakeups are ruined should go fight pre-patch Green Arrow and try to get out of his Super reset shenanigans.

No, they should play ST and get throw looped to death. Or play Tekken against a competent Chang player.

I can totally get behind you on this one. The words invincible and unpunishable should never describe the same attack

Safe on block =/= unpunishable. Many "safe" wakeup attacks can be punished for more then you'd get just by blocking them if baited properly. It may seem unfair, but it makes for a more interesting game.

 

[Vagrant]

The OTG's needed to go.

This shit aint marvel. (Though to be honest, it's probably not that far off..._

As for the wakeup window.... I was always complaining about it but the oki mind games it set up added some depth to the game. I miss it. Aris talked about this with slips on the ATP podcast and he had a point. Any joe shmoe can just throw out a wakeup now. I don't know if that's necessarily good for the game competetively. But an argument can definitely be made for both sides.