Wake up attacks in injustice too easy = good or not?

[KingHippo]

And getting knocked down isnt a "mistake." oh my bad i just fell on my face, yeah go ahead and kill me now please. and it's not favorable to someone who got knocked down, your options are limited to baitable/punishable wakeups, techrolls, and doing nothing. how is that advantageous. you have a very warped notion of what wakeups do. you dont win a game by getting knocked down a couple times, but you shouldnt lose it for that either. if i got knocked down then you already did your damage to me. there's a difference between being practically guaranteed death and having to deal with your oki game. i choose the latter.
i didnt say to have an easy way out, i said to have more options. try actually reading what i'm typing and not just filling in what you want to argue against.

Why isn't it a mistake? This isn't SSBB, you don't just randomly trip, your defense has to slip and you get knocked down because your opponent, by hook or crook, got his knockdown. Your goal should be to avoid that as much as possible.

It's not 'favorable' in the exact sense of the word, but let's take a character like Black Adam. He has an insane backdash, two wakeups that are fully invulnerable and safe, and one of those reversals is safe and can lead to about like 40% on hit with meter/trait and hits in almost a circle around him. At that point the game becomes literally try and bait that every time, because doing a meaty attack or a crossup will get you killed because the timing is so easy. You almost surrender the knockdown advantage to play this baiting game that almost lets Adam get up for free at least half the time. And he's not the only one who has wakeups similar to this.

I think having more options that what was already available is pretty much the easy way out. The game gave most people an invulnerable backdash, a techroll, and moves with loads of invulnerable frames on wakeup that were SLIGHTLY difficult to get out all the time. Not to mention pushblock if you block as much as a jump in and a single follow up attack. With all these options, I think fixing the wakeups kinda sucks because it dulls the game back to that poor knockdown advantage for characters. And it REALLY sucks because it made a lot of sense to do it the way NRS did, so it's like a mixed blessing.

 

[cyke_out]

This is major difference between Tekken and VF, VF doesn't have the same Oki system as TK, when you get knocked down you have powerful options that the opponent must respect in rising kicks. It makes the neutral game the main focus of the fighting as the prone defender can easily get back to his feet and continue the action. A rising kick in VF can be seen as similar to an invincible wake-up attack in INJ, but there are of ways of outright beating rising kicks as well as blocking correctly and punishing.

The attacker is still in the advantaged positiion, as VF's "wake-up attacks" are unsafe, so the defender has to risk going for a wake-up attack. The biggest issue with INJ is when meterless wake-up options are completely safe or even an advantage on block for the recently knocked down character. I'm fine with characters having meterless invincible ways of getting an over-zealous attacker off of them, but it has to come at a price if the attacker was patient enough to block and bait the wake up.

 

[Tristan Verdum]

Its a shame they already have changed so much since the release of this game. Including nerfing a character *cough* Scorpion *cough* not even a week after his release. Did they beta test anything at all?? SMH

 

[Tristan Verdum]

What really needs to WakeUp is NetherRealms. Where the fuck is my Martian Manhunter and my Power Girl? SMH

 

[james1926]

I like wake up attacks the way they are and yes I believe they are suppose to be easy. I don't understand all the crying about how the wake ups have changed, seriously, what you want is to knock your opponent down and keep pressuring safely? And take the victory because your opponent's wake up didn't work because of the ridiculously little wake up frames? All the point is after a knockdown both players have equal chances of getting an attack to the other.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

I still dont get why its such a big deal. Everyone thinks theyre so good and they dont want "scrubs" doing wakeup attacks on them. "oh now anyone can do it" wow... Im sorry you dont feel special anymore.

Its soooo hard to get a knockdown in this game. Yeah its sooooo hard, we should get further rewarded for one.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

I like wake up attacks the way they are and yes I believe they are suppose to be easy. I don't understand all the crying about how the wake ups have changed, seriously, what you want is to knock your opponent down and keep pressuring safely? And take the victory because your opponent's wake up didn't work because of the ridiculously little wake up frames? All the point is after a knockdown both players have equal chances of getting an attack to the other.

Even with wakeup attacks the standing player is still at the advantage with meaty armored attacks, projectiles, strategic positioning, etc.

And those are options besides bait and punish. There are things you could be doing regardless of whether they decide to wakeup attack or not

 

[scorpion990]

It's a good thing. If you keep knocking me down time after time with meaty attacks and you're not going to respect my options, then you deserve to eat a special attack. Plus... Most wakeup moves are unsafe. So you can continue to pressure by letting up a bit after a knockdown. Bait -> block -> punish. It's a good system.

In some matches, people completely disrespect my super. If you're going to keep on pressuring for the 3rd knockdown in a row when I have a full meter, you deserve to eat 35% damage.

EDIT: I can only speak about Aquaman's wakeup options as I haven't seriously played too many other characters. Others are saying that Black Adam has safe wake up options. That shouldn't be. There should be some risk involved with doing a wakeup, even if it only puts you at -3 or so.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Why isn't it a mistake? This isn't SSBB, you don't just randomly trip, your defense has to slip and you get knocked down because your opponent, by hook or crook, got his knockdown. Your goal should be to avoid that as much as possible.

It's not 'favorable' in the exact sense of the word, but let's take a character like Black Adam. He has an insane backdash, two wakeups that are fully invulnerable and safe, and one of those reversals is safe and can lead to about like 40% on hit with meter/trait and hits in almost a circle around him. At that point the game becomes literally try and bait that every time, because doing a meaty attack or a crossup will get you killed because the timing is so easy. You almost surrender the knockdown advantage to play this baiting game that almost lets Adam get up for free at least half the time. And he's not the only one who has wakeups similar to this.

I think having more options that what was already available is pretty much the easy way out. The game gave most people an invulnerable backdash, a techroll, and moves with loads of invulnerable frames on wakeup that were SLIGHTLY difficult to get out all the time. Not to mention pushblock if you block as much as a jump in and a single follow up attack. With all these options, I think fixing the wakeups kinda sucks because it dulls the game back to that poor knockdown advantage for characters. And it REALLY sucks because it made a lot of sense to do it the way NRS did, so it's like a mixed blessing.

bachdash isnt a wakeup move, you have to get up before you can use it and it's only invulnerable for a frame or 2. but whatever, i get that you want knockdown to = death, it doesnt, so it doesnt matter. play the game or dont if you dont like it.
I just dont understand how you can argue that not being able to fight in a fighting game is good. but whatever.

also, i'm sure nrs is going to fix completely safe or advantage wakeups. I'm not discussing specifics, i'm just discussing the general idea of being able to get off the fucking ground. i think it's stupid to lose a game because someone can hit you around the ground like a bag of meat (this reference may not make sense for people that have not worked at meat markets or packing plants.... fuck it, lol) indefinitely. That feels infinitely more lame than losing to zoning or 100% combo resets, touch of death, or whatever.

 

[KingHippo]

bachdash isnt a wakeup move, you have to get up before you can use it and it's only invulnerable for a frame or 2. but whatever, i get that you want knockdown to = death, it doesnt, so it doesnt matter. play the game or dont if you dont like it.
I just dont understand how you can argue that not being able to fight in a fighting game is good. but whatever.

also, i'm sure nrs is going to fix completely safe or advantage wakeups. I'm not discussing specifics, i'm just discussing the general idea of being able to get off the fucking ground. i think it's stupid to lose a game because someone can hit you around the ground like a bag of meat (this reference may not make sense for people that have not worked at meat markets or packing plants.... fuck it, lol) indefinitely. That feels infinitely more lame than losing to zoning or 100% combo resets, touch of death, or whatever.

It is about fighting though. If you don't want to get knocked down, you have to play really good and try to avoid it, and that's when you have games with a super heavy focus on the neutral game, which is probably good for everyone. And it's not like knockdowns = death either, it's just that the person on the ground is severely disadvantaged, which he should be. I don't feel in either MK9 or now Injustice that the person on the ground is severely disadvantaged, which I think makes the game kind of stale at a certain point.

I mean I'm not asking for this kind of oki to come back. It was complete horseshit, but it made that neutral game super important, which I think is what any good fighter wants to have

 

[WaywardStranger]

bachdash isnt a wakeup move, you have to get up before you can use it and it's only invulnerable for a frame or 2. but whatever, i get that you want knockdown to = death, it doesnt, so it doesnt matter. play the game or dont if you dont like it.
I just dont understand how you can argue that not being able to fight in a fighting game is good. but whatever.

also, i'm sure nrs is going to fix completely safe or advantage wakeups. I'm not discussing specifics, i'm just discussing the general idea of being able to get off the fucking ground. i think it's stupid to lose a game because someone can hit you around the ground like a bag of meat (this reference may not make sense for people that have not worked at meat markets or packing plants.... fuck it, lol) indefinitely. That feels infinitely more lame than losing to zoning or 100% combo resets, touch of death, or whatever.

Post reads as if you haven't considered the offensive benefits of knockdown advantage. I, for one, like to knock people down and beat them like meat bags. And you sum up the others' argument as knockdown=death. This is an absolute statement--clearly you disregard the degree of difficulty involved in a) creating knockdown advantage and b) maintaining it.

Wake-up system was far more nuanced pre-patch 1.04.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

I don't see the problem, but then again I'm from street fighter where I'm used to respecting the wakeup shoryukens. Some of you are quick to call wakeups "scrubbie", but it's your own fault for not considering all of your opponent's options and trying to play on auto-pilot. It is easy to counter wakeups, but you have to expect them.

 

[Chrishaspads]

If im facing a Black Adam, i just dont try to pressure during a wake up.

 

[scorpion990]

It is about fighting though. If you don't want to get knocked down, you have to play really good and try to avoid it, and that's when you have games with a super heavy focus on the neutral game, which is probably good for everyone. And it's not like knockdowns = death either, it's just that the person on the ground is severely disadvantaged, which he should be. I don't feel in either MK9 or now Injustice that the person on the ground is severely disadvantaged, which I think makes the game kind of stale at a certain point.

I mean I'm not asking for this kind of oki to come back. It was complete horseshit, but it made that neutral game super important, which I think is what any good fighter wants to have

The person being knocked down shouldn't be anymore "severely disadvantaged" than he already is. You took his damage. He didn't take your damage. You get a huge frame advantage. The only thing he can do is take a risk with a wakeup attack. And you're trying to take his only option from him, even though it's unsafe?

What you're saying goes against the basics of fighting games.... In MK, if you take a beating, you build up meter for a combo breaker. So... taking damage makes it easier to escape further damage. In SF4, you build up an ultra as you take damage.

I don't understand it... Are you saying that you want to play a game in which the first person to get a knockdown wins?

 

[AU_IM_DIGIMON]

Ultimately...I agree with EVERYTHING King Hippo said.

I can't stand playing Injustice, at all! Injustice is super defensive heavy/slower paced as it is, with lack of universal momentum options. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz. But I could see myself hating the game exceptionally more, if I don't get rewarded for scoring a knockdown (which is currently one of my biggest gripes about MK tbh, they SHOULD HAVE LEFT THE WAKE UP SYSTEM THE WAY IT WAS IN VER. 1.04).

So if I worked so hard to get in, I expect to keep that momentum until I make a mistake - my opponent blocks well & punishes after blocking an unsafe move I do or something that I whiffed. Or, has meter to wake up. Or, timed "appropriately" an invincible wake up.

It's not knock down = death. It's knock down = if u don't know how to block/punish/make educated guesses/use all options your character has...THAT EQUALS DEATH.

I was a bit ignorant in saying that "NO FIGHTING GAME SHOULD HAVE METERLESS WAKE UP MOVES". Hell...ALL fighting games, except Tekken , have meterless wake up moves (even 3D ones). It's just the frames of invincibility vary. So I expect the invincibility window to be small, to use the said meterless wake ups skillfully.

I see nothing wrong with that. If you're going to escape out of momentum, YOU BETTER EARN IT. And you SHOULD BE FEARFUL of my approach, I deserve it.

 

[scorpion990]

Calm down, dude. If you're really convinced that you're losing momentum by being fearful of wake-up attacks, then.... just block them and then punish.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Guys plz cry less, my socks are getting soggy In this tear filled thread

Go play something else if you dont like injustice

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

Ok, this is something i wanna know your toughts from.

Now that with the latest patch, wake up attacks are more easy to do, does this mean:
-Its more scrubfriendly, and also bad because you get less rewarded when you get a knockdown?
-Or do you think its part of the game, and wake up attacks can be baited and punished anyway...




edit: for me its the second, personally because i play with ares and has a bad wake up in general anyway

only one think i know and what make me rly mad it's that some characters like catwoman have rly stupid wake up game , 90% of my wake up time i am directly punished by fking randoms pressures and some wake ups like GL, DS, pushing everything with a incredible AOE

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

only one think i know and what make me rly mad it's that some characters like catwoman have rly stupid wake up game , 90% of my wake up time i am directly punished by fking randoms pressures and some wake ups like GL, DS, pushing everything with a incredible AOE

Moar QQ

 

[Zoidberg747]

Sigh, this thread....

The only reason you should have a problem with the new system is if you dont respect wakeups. If I am pressuring deathstroke, and he sword flips me every time, you better bet the next time I am backdashing and punishing that shit.

Offense is not just going in and going ham. It it knowing when to attack and controlling the flow of the match. If you get a knockdown you are in control of the match. If they backdash, you can use whatever move catches backdashes(most chars have them), if they wakeup either backdash or punish(depending on if it is safe). Not to mention things like crossover jump ins and ranged moves can still be effective vs. wakeups.

If someone is beating you because they are hitting you with a wakeup every time, then you need to respect them more. Oncce again instead of complaining how the game works you could all be in the lab realizing how knockdowns are still awesome.

Oh and they didnt buff wakeups, wakeups were messed up from the start. They were always supposed to be this easy, so again, if you dont like the game either dont play it or adapt.

 

[Fromundaman]

The only issue I have with wakeups are that a ridiculously high number of them beat counters. IDK, I feel at least Joker should be able to use oki traps to bait wakeups and then use trait to get Ha's, but that sadly doesn't work.

 

[chemist4hire]

Calm down, dude. If you're really convinced that you're losing momentum by being fearful of wake-up attacks, then.... just block them and then punish.

I think his point is that with some characters in the game, this is not possible because their wake up move is both safe and invincible/leave at advantage especially if they use meter. I think if you burn meter you should gain the invincibility frames. Meterless however, I think you should either have to time it right and if mistimed are unsafe especially if the wake up attack was blocked. I actually prefer the old super turbo wake up system where the reversal window was always random and you had to take a huge risk in doing a reversal.

I think the wake up situation is made worse by the movement system in the game and the advantage zoners have in this game in general. It feels like if you get a knockdown with a rushdown character that the zoner always gets a chance at resetting his position. Even when you get the hard knockdown, an easy reversal system allows the zoner to reset himself into perfect position. And because walk speed is so slow and the inability to block after dash, you eat a lot of chip just getting yourself into a good position again. In essence you get punished for knockdown if you are a rushdown character. If i knock you down, I shouldn't be punished by allowing you to reset yourself into a position that rewards you and punishes me.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

QQ

 

[SunLord5]

I think wake ups are too easy but they were too hard before. A happy medium would be nice.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

How hard a wakeup is really doesnt matter. Just because a shitty player can do it now doesnt make them any less shitty.