The Truth About Nerfing and Buffing: Let's be Real

[CY MasterHavik]

scrubs cry anything is cheap i can body scrubs in brawl that think ganon is broken.

 

[Throwback]

Except that's not true. Before I ever set foot on a competitive gaming site, I played Street Fighter 2 Turbo and Championship Edition, MK1, Mk2, Mk3, MK4, UMK3, MK Trilogy, Soul Blade, Soul Calibur 1-3, Tekken 1-3, Tag, and 5, Street Fighter 4, Super Smash Bros, Killer Instinct, Clayfighter 63 1/3, Xmen vs. Street Fighter, MvC 1+2.

I played many of these games well beyond their expiration dates, and continued to play the classic ones I owned online w/ ZSNES, MAME etc.

Why? Because I love fighting games. I was technically a 'casual' at all of them. I had no clue about tech, frames, matchups at that point. It was just a genre I liked. Between arcades and home systems I'd spent more money on fighting games than all the other genres combined before I ever had a clue what a 'dash cancel' was.

Lumping every single non-professional fighting game player in with CoD zombies is silly in my opinion, and totally disregards the fact that there's a diverse and highly loyal audience for these kinds of games.

Any fan of the kind you describe would never experience the zoning you are talking about, except in a forum (not THESE forums, per se) where the solutions are also available. Case in point.

 

[Spinky]

I really can't be bothered to write massive walls of text on my shitty phone anymore. Nerf Deathstroke, don't nerf him, whatever, don't care. The scrubs will cry and drop/not buy the game and the people who actually know how to play the game will kick his ass. Done, end of, whatevs.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Guys guys, seriously.
pls guys this is annoying, instead of dropping in here complaining about deathstroke nerf, why don't you spend more time trying to pass his zoning properly and consider the options your character has? this is stupid.

The game basically has one week old, and all the complains i see after day one is only to nerf Deathstroke, this is been annoying and i'm starting to believe even players who i have seen on MK9 tournaments before joining this quest of nerf on a one week old game have also a lot of scrub habits into them.

I don't agree that a balance patch should be produced to find a median term between scrub players, and ppl who actually understand the games, Scrub players will always call you cheap, broken tactic everytime they lose.

Scrub players can't even tell the difference between patch changes, can't even consider his own and other players options, scrub players only want to charge in, jump like an idiot, perform stuff hoping you will block or it will hit.
If you anti-air him with solid options all the time, "you're cheap."
you counter his zoning all the time, "you're cheap"
you force him to commit mistakes all the times, "your character is broken."
its getting hit by a tool he should think about blocking or consider a counter, "this tool is broken, it should be nerfed."
its being catched between traps when he should approach carefully "This game is broken"

Why would NRS patch a game to give them some chance, this wouldn't aid them in nothing, they would still be scrubs with no better results than before and yet, besides destroying the character concept and make him a bad character against other good characters, like happened on MK9

Stryker was affected by the universal dash nerf, with very slow strings on a fast paced game where, poke into mid hit was the main rule, his offense got incredible crippled.

Jade was nerfed for no reason and ended up being shit with slow starters, damage xcaled, double damaged on glow, fast overhead removed, later it was discovered that the characters was very meter dependable, and his game didn't compensate for what was balanced.

Sub-Zero had a nice reset with meter who made his damage 40% like most of a good character, gets nerfed thousand of times, its reduced to crap, one of the reasons i think Tom Brady has inspired a very intelligent game, things no one wanted to do in MK9, playing with reads and strategy, ppl only wanted to run mofo.

Scorpion got mediocre shit and his pokes (i believe so) where nerfed being all negative on hit and d4 being 0 on hit, very slow and punishable overhead and a spear that was -500 frames on whiff. Later discovered that advantage on poke was a MUST HAVE on that game, where he did lack a fast mid hitting, and his best string could be easily avoided.

Skarlet was the best counter-zoning character the way she was with the use of 1 bar, ppl asked to nerf her teleport, her slide/slash and zoning, as result no one could punish kabal's saw and options properly. Later her meter dependent game increased, and her lack of good fast normals to close other options her nerfed specials couldn't, besides her armor being good, she still doesn't has a fast punisher, so ppl can actually commit a few mistakes and block in time.

Kano had a nice zoning, dash nerf affected his damage zoning was nerfed and upball was balanced to be punished, result, all kano does now is to be punished on his first bad read.

Majority of the cast lacked a good mid hitting and some of them even lacked a fast hitting normal with a good hitbox, to stop crossups, only few can punish poke on block with a 9f or 8f move.

Every character kabal can't risk rushdown lost to his zonning very bad, every character kabal can't zone properly has a big hitbox, lacks armor and has dificulties getting out of NDC pressure.

-----------------------------------

I will say this once again, Injustice is still a 1 week baby, the game will evolve, the game will change, and if by then this deathstroke zoning still be a issue, then it will eventually be patched. Learn your stuff, learn your options, it doesn't matter if you're a casual, or pro player, if you're entering on a game everybody plays, you should try to keep up and learn your shit instead of asking to devs to change something only the ppl of your league (a.k.a casuals and scrub players) can't counter it.

Fighting game never was easy, you need to take small steps before being able to do big ones.

 

[aldazo]

snip

One of the best posts so far about the topic, sincerely thank you.

 

[DJ L Toro]

pls guys this is annoying, instead of dropping in here complaining about deathstroke nerf, why don't you spend more time trying to pass his zoning properly and consider the options your character has? this is stupid.

The game basically has one week old, and all the complains i see after day one is only to nerf Deathstroke, this is been annoying and i'm starting to believe even players who i have seen on MK9 tournaments before joining this quest of nerf on a one week old game have also a lot of scrub habits into them.

I don't agree that a balance patch should be produced to find a median term between scrub players, and ppl who actually understand the games, Scrub players will always call you cheap, broken tactic everytime they lose.

Scrub players can't even tell the difference between patch changes, can't even consider his own and other players options, scrub players only want to charge in, jump like an idiot, perform stuff hoping you will block or it will hit.
If you anti-air him with solid options all the time, "you're cheap."
you counter his zoning all the time, "you're cheap"
you force him to commit mistakes all the times, "your character is broken."
its getting hit by a tool he should think about blocking or consider a counter, "this tool is broken, it should be nerfed."
its being catched between traps when he should approach carefully "This game is broken"

Why would NRS patch a game to give them some chance, this wouldn't aid them in nothing, they would still be scrubs with no better results than before and yet, besides destroying the character concept and make him a bad character against other good characters, like happened on MK9.

well said.
people are acting like babies wanting instant gratification without having to work for it, it's absurd.

 

[aldazo]

i dont get how so many people here want to protect these kind of players though. they re the cheapest. nobody likes them, they re bad players exploiting a weakness of the game. and all this with little to no effort, compared to the precise timing of blocking, walking, blocking, ~40% comboing... another character have to do.
you say, fuck the scrubs. they should learn the game. but the truth is you re only protecting the worst of all scrubs who dont learn the game at all and spam the same moves over and over again. why dont you say THEY should learn how to play the game and show a bit more effort.
wouldnt that make more sense? :3

This right here, this is one of the main issues that should be addressed.

 

[Throwback]

This right here, this is one of the main issues that should be addressed.

Seriously, go pick a zoning character. Main that character for a period greater than a month, then come back and tell us how you didn't have to learn anything and you just spammed the same move over and over.

FWIW, I don't play a zoner in this game.

 

[Eddy Wang]

yea, the input delay or not registering commands at all are things cheap Deathstrokers benefit the most from.

i dont get how so many people here want to protect these kind of players though. they re the cheapest. nobody likes them, they re bad players exploiting a weakness of the game. and all this with little to no effort, compared to the precise timing of blocking, walking, blocking, ~40% comboing... another character have to do.


you say, fuck the scrubs. they should learn the game. but the truth is you re only protecting the worst of all scrubs who dont learn the game at all and spam the same moves over and over again. why dont you say THEY should learn how to play the game and show a bit more effort.
wouldnt that make more sense? :3

You probably were one of those who always lost to Ryu in SF II' -Champion Edition, that's assuming you ever played that game, if not, you would probably call Ryu Cheap because all he can do is Spam hadoukens to keep out and, when you do a bad jump he would punish.

Your excuse and who ever backed you up on this statement doesn't justify the needs to nerf, i'm sorry, i don't mean to offend anyone but your point here is completely retarded.

 

[Hellbringer]

Except that's not true. Before I ever set foot on a competitive gaming site, I played Street Fighter 2 Turbo and Championship Edition, MK1, Mk2, Mk3, MK4, UMK3, MK Trilogy, Soul Blade, Soul Calibur 1-3, Tekken 1-3, Tag, and 5, Street Fighter 4, Super Smash Bros, Killer Instinct, Clayfighter 63 1/3, Xmen vs. Street Fighter, MvC 1+2.

Wow playing all those fighters and u still dont get it? I tought u would understand the logic by now but i guess not.

Btw from the 200 player matches i played online i maybe faced 10% DS players. You blow this way out of proportion.
And what do u get by making this? Posts from new players like "yup DS is op, just like noob saibot was and my connection sucks ass btw!"

 

[Juggs]

No, just no. It's true that the majority of players are casuals and scrubs. But once that scrub has bought the game, NRS has done their job. Most casuals or scrubs, aka the majority of people playing Injustice, will drop the game REGARDLESS OF UPDATES/BALANCE PATCHES. Sure, if you patch tactics or moves that are hard to deal with, the casual player will like this. But it's not going to keep that player from dropping the game anyway.

NRS needs to listen to the tournament and competitive players. Because WE are the ones that continue to play their game not only months after release, but YEARS. The casuals will cry about everything under the sun, and not even stay around long enough to see the impact of their tears. The hardcore, dedicated players are then stuck with a different game that they never even asked for, all because the wave of tears was too much to handle.

When it comes to balance updates and patches, those are made for us, the players who will still be playing their game a year from now. CrimsonShadow

 

[Setsuna]

well said.
people are acting like babies wanting instant gratification without having to work for it, it's absurd.

that s exactly what the DS players get right now. and i agree with you. it is indeed absurd

 

[IceNine]

No, just no. It's true that the majority of players are casuals and scrubs. But once that scrub has bought the game, NRS has done their job. Most casuals or scrubs, aka the majority of people playing Injustice, will drop the game REGARDLESS OF UPDATES/BALANCE PATCHES. Sure, if you patch tactics or moves that are hard to deal with, the casual player will like this. But it's not going to keep that player from dropping the game anyway.

NRS needs to listen to the tournament and competitive players. Because WE are the ones that continue to play their game not only months after release, but YEARS. The casuals will cry about everything under the sun, and not even stay around long enough to see the impact of their tears. The hardcore, dedicated players are then stuck with a different game that they never even asked for, all because the wave of tears was too much to handle.

When it comes to balance updates and patches, those are made for us, the players who will still be playing their game a year from now.

Agreed, 100%.

Additionally, game balance is completely irrelevant to the casual crowd because they are going to lose to low tier characters and abusive, but easily circumvented tactics anyway.

Examples: Sheeva stomp spam in MK9. I've seen so many folks completely befuddled by this.

Akuma in the SFIV series jumping back and fireballin. There are people to this day that legitimately believe that Akuma's keepaway is too strong. It's quite disheartening.

I'm not trying to be an elitist here, but you would literally have to absolutely destroy a character's ability to keepaway to satisfy the sort of people that believe such tactics are cheap or overpowered. And after breaking Deathstroke's kneecaps, they would most assuredly find someone else to rally against because they can't get through their obstacle course. Nobody wins.

 

[Setsuna]

You probably were one of those who always lost to Ryu in SF II' -Champion Edition, that's assuming you ever played that game, if not, you would probably call Ryu Cheap because all he can do is Spam hadoukens to keep out and, when you do a bad jump he would punish.

Your excuse and who ever backed you up on this statement doesn't justify the needs to nerf, i'm sorry, i don't mean to offend anyone but your point here is completely retarded.

i ve never had problems with a zoner in any game as i have with DS online when i m playing with certain chars. i also beat cheap DS spammers when i m using Aquaman or Ares, but i cant beat them with my main Shazam

some of my last Ranked Matches (always playing with Shazam):
- a pretty good Superman player. sth like 450:30. i lost but it was a good fight. he had 2/3 of his red bar left and i think that s ok because he was really better than me
- a good Green Lantern player: ~120:40. i won with 10 % of red bar left
- a bad player ~15:40. was playing with Raven. it was almost a flawless victory for me.
- same player again. this time he choose Deathstroke. spams like an idiot and this time it s almost a flawless victory for him.


so, call me the worst scrub ever for all i care but this means sth. come on, it s ridiculous. it cant be that i m doing better against good-decent players using other characters than DS but get totally destroyed by a total noob using DS. how is this balanced?


i dont even claim to be a good player and i dont have a problem with losing (you would never get any hatemail from me. ever :3 ) but i think there must be sth wrong in a game if a noob can perform better just by choosing a certain character than a far better player

 

[IceNine]

snip

It just means you've not yet adjusted to beating a bad/random deathstroke. Which doesn't even make you a bad player, per se. Pros can get "scrubbed out" (I hate that term, but it's the most commonly used one) all the time because they're not well adjusted to those tactics (or lack thereof). There are characters in any fighting games that scrubs can win with more easily using abusive tactics, that doesn't really affect competitive balance. If you played that Deathstroke for several more matches, I'm sure you woulda gotten a handle on it and beaten him quite handily.

To be perfectly honest, you could be among the worst Wonder Woman, Superman, Hawkgirl, or Sinestro players out there and probably beat me because I'm just having a real problem with those characters.

Another example is Doomsday - A character that I feel is good, but is largely overrated by people playing against him for the first time because they can't get past gimmicks like supernova/earthshake/his trait and don't know how to punish him or about his complete lack of low game, etc.

 

[Hellbringer]

i ve never had problems with a zoner in any game as i have with DS online when i m playing with certain chars. i also beat cheap DS spammers when i m using Aquaman or Ares, but i cant beat them with my main Shazam

some of my last Ranked Matches (always playing with Shazam):
- a pretty good Superman player. sth like 450:30. i lost but it was a good fight. he had 2/3 of his red bar left and i think that s ok because he was really better than me
- a good Green Lantern player: ~120:40. i won with 10 % of red bar left
- a bad player ~15:40. was playing with Raven. it was almost a flawless victory for me.
- same player again. this time he choose Deathstroke. spams like an idiot and this time it s almost a flawless victory for him.


so, call me the worst scrub ever for all i care but this means sth. come on, it s ridiculous. it cant be that i m doing better against good-decent players using other characters than DS but get totally destroyed by a total noob using DS. how is this balanced?


i dont even claim to be a good player and i dont have a problem with losing (you would never get any hatemail from me. ever :3 ) but i think there must be sth wrong in a game if a noob can perform better just by choosing a certain character than a far better player

I would have loved to see a video of that fight. see how many mistakes u made against that bad deathstroke player.

This sentence really proves how narrow minded you are:

spams like an idiot and this time it s almost a flawless victory for him.

says enough about ur fundamental understandings of the game

 

[Eddy Wang]

so, call me the worst scrub ever for all i care but this means sth. come on, it s ridiculous. it cant be that i m doing better against good-decent players using other characters than DS but get totally destroyed by a total noob using DS. how is this balanced?


i dont even claim to be a good player and i dont have a problem with losing (you would never get any hatemail from me. ever :3 ) but i think there must be sth wrong in a game if a noob can perform better just by choosing a certain character than a far better player

Once again, the game has one week old all zoning tools are good at every early beginning of a game, later on this won't be a issue because you will be able to do what ever you can to get in.

 

[kabelfritz]

Let's face it: almost no one wants to be honest about the real factors that surround character modifications in a AAA video game title. But if you really take them into account, you're forced to paint an entirely different picture of what publishers and developers are forced to deal with.

Let's start with Kano. On TYM you might often see statements like this:

"Kano was nerfed because people like you complained that his tools were OP instead of just learning the matchup".

The truth is, that about 4 million people bought Mortal Kombat: 2011, of which people like you and me are a very small percentage. The majority of game-buyers do not have the wherwithal or time to invest hours into learning the intricacies of a matchup. They simply want to play the game, learn the tools of their character on a general level and have fun.

"But this game is made for tournament players!"

This is partially true, but it's not the whole story. Games like Injustice are made for a wide audience which includes brand new and strictly casual gamers, semi-dedicated gamers, all the way up to pros. This means that you cannot balance a game only for the top 1% of players, and expect that the other 99% will be able to deal with vast perceived imbalances that only disappear at the highest level, and have fun.

So why is a character like Kano nerfed? Maybe it had nothing to do with TYM Joe at all; maybe it's because 99% of the people who play the game had issues dealing with basic easy-mode tactics that rendered their attempts at solid gameplay obsolete.

"But people are expressing their frustrations; TYM posters are going to ruin this game!"

Now at this point, I think it's far too early to be talking about nerfs and buffs (besides obvious things, like infinites and 100% easy resets). But consider that once things get to that point, it's not just being balanced for you, and your 100 friends; it's also being balanced for the millions of other people around the world that make up the majority of players and buyers of this game.

So if we could all recognize this fact and stop talking as if these games are only tweaked only for EVO, then most of the discussions surrounding game balance would make a heck of a lot more sense. Right now it's borderline delusional.

You cannot balance a game like this either for the 100% harcore most knowledgeble players, or for the 100% casual Farmville gamers; the balance is a 'balance' and it has to sit somewhere in the middle of those two.

you forget one thing: the core players are the ones who draw others in. its the best advertisement a company couldwish for: a game being played on a high level, on a big stage, with all hype around it. its talked about the game and its cool, even years after release. this gives franchises a good name and boosts sales. so if you balance the game in a way that it keeps this 1% of players in, your reward will be huge. the other way round, your game will go the way of mk 5-8.

 

[Posthuman]

Meh... look at my avatar...

 

[coolwhip]

Do we really need a new thread about buffs and nerfs?

 

[lucky jim]

Regarding the OP, I had been considering this point for quite some time, that ultimately the game needs to be balanced as well for the casual gamer so that they have fun. But I did realize something in the case of Injustice: in terms of system mechanics and design, it is NOT made for casual gamers.

Designing a character like Deathstroke, they already KNEW he was going to be a scrub-killer and that people were going to hate him. How can you not? Also the very idea of crossups is a scrub-killer for casuals, especially casuals coming off MK. Then you have command throws, unblockable resets, armoured bounces and overheads... this game is FULL of stuff that just decimates anyone who has no idea how they're playing. So how could NRS listen to people about balance choice when they would find EVERYTHING in this game CHEAP?

If you're looking for proof of this fact, look no further than gamefaqs and/or all the casual reviews popping up for Injustice. These people will complain about everything, and also will never even consider spending two minutes in the lab, recording a move and trying to figure out ways to get around it.

I'm actually hoping that NRS doesn't do any balance changes, as I think that's the best way. It allows people to learn matchups from day 1 and be able to stick with that knowledge, and it forces people to learn how to change their game to win rather than waiting for patches to mess everything up again.

 

[fluxxshredder]

Regarding the OP, I had been considering this point for quite some time, that ultimately the game needs to be balanced as well for the casual gamer so that they have fun. But I did realize something in the case of Injustice: in terms of system mechanics and design, it is NOT made for casual gamers.

Designing a character like Deathstroke, they already KNEW he was going to be a scrub-killer and that people were going to hate him. How can you not? Also the very idea of crossups is a scrub-killer for casuals, especially casuals coming off MK. Then you have command throws, unblockable resets, armoured bounces and overheads... this game is FULL of stuff that just decimates anyone who has no idea how they're playing. So how could NRS listen to people about balance choice when they would find EVERYTHING in this game CHEAP?

If you're looking for proof of this fact, look no further than gamefaqs and/or all the casual reviews popping up for Injustice. These people will complain about everything, and also will never even consider spending two minutes in the lab, recording a move and trying to figure out ways to get around it.

I'm actually hoping that NRS doesn't do any balance changes, as I think that's the best way. It allows people to learn matchups from day 1 and be able to stick with that knowledge, and it forces people to learn how to change their game to win rather than waiting for patches to mess everything up again.

I fully agree....if u look at all the major reviews....they r shit....but i've played the game and it's far from shit....i think its the best fighter on the market myself. There is so much info and tech that we just don't see yet but u know its there. It has the most meter options of any fighting game i've ever heard of.....couple that with all the transitions and interactables.....I honestly just think it's too much for casuals....hence all the shitty opinions and unfounded bullshit ppl r coming up with.

 

[TakeAChance]

Can we just hit the pause button on all of this shit and pick it back up in like a month and a half?

I find Deathstroke far easier to deal with today than I did on the first day of the game. Sword flippers wont beat me anymore, and I WILL get in.

Hell if you want to talk about OP characters I think people are sleeping on no meter super armoured Grundy with a projectile and a amazing anti air. I still don't think he should be nerfed, but he is definitely the most versatile grapple character I have ever seen in any fighting game.

Hell Batman is 10x more retarded than Deathstroke.

If you nerf stroke too hard, he is going to be bottom tier. That's a fact. I am not even sure how you nerf him at this point? If you make his guns slower, he will be free. If you make his sword spin unsafe he will have absolutely no unpunishable wakeup option. What exactly is it that we are supposed to take away from him?

I don't even fucking play Deathstroke and I can't see what to take away from him without breaking him completely.

There are far far far far far bigger threats than Deathstroke.

 

[Briggs8417]

This thread is kind of absurd. I don't want to come off as being a dick or not understanding of where you are coming from, but in terms of patches and game balancing. Fuck casuals though seriously, I am not trying to let people who don't understand the game determine the fate of this game's balance and potentially fuck up either my character or someone elses when it isn't even necessary.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Juggs I hear you -- but the vast majority of people still pkaying MK9 (2 years after release) are not tournament players, either. It's still a mix of people, just like it was at launch, with the majority of people being somewhere in between not-that-great and great.

95% of the hardcore and tournament players on my friends list have switched to playing Injustice, while a lot of the 'regulars' are still playing MK9 simply because they just like Mortal Kombat and aren't up on the latest tournament games. After EVO, even more people will move. If anything the audience makeup is shifting the other direction.

Like I said, it's a balance. I'm not advocating one way other the other; I'm just explaining that like it or not, this game isn't patched only for one group of people. It's life and people need to be aware of it when they go after Hector and Paulo come patch day. Those guys have more considerations than people are giving them credit for.